Author Topic: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage  (Read 122878 times)

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Offline flyingvan

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #150 on: February 11, 2013, 02:45:44 PM »
  Makes me want to compare and contrast foreman vs. princess.  Both seem to know what they want and expect people to make it happen.  I think the biggest differences are how they motivate those people to make it happen, and how they look in a white dress.
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Offline Rob_O

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #151 on: February 12, 2013, 07:42:00 AM »
  Makes me want to compare and contrast foreman vs. princess.  Both seem to know what they want and expect people to make it happen.  I think the biggest differences are how they motivate those people to make it happen, and how they look in a white dress.

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Offline flyingvan

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #152 on: March 03, 2013, 07:26:18 AM »
  Finally got a chance to finish the 'potager'.  A potager, I was informed, is a small kitchen garden usually dominated by cooking herbs.  I had to finish the retainer anyway.   Also the bridge to the porch didn't look very bridge-like becaue the soil was only a few inches below it.  That was convenient for when I was forming it but now was the time to dig it out----it's rich soil.  I just shoveled it out and set the rocks aside.


   My 90 year old neighbor, an avid gardener, wandered over and told me to first level the base soil.  It followed the natural slope and would have channeled water away from where it was needed.  So dug that flat.  Also by his advice, I added 3 cu ft of garden mulch and 3 cu ft steer manure.  Then as I added the native soil from under the bridge I just kept stirring it in.  The amended soil goes all the way down to the level of the walkway.

 

   So now the bridge is higher off the ground.  I have a bunch of this 3" gravel so I'm making a 'stream' under the bridge.  It'll continue down the hill where the porch dripline is.  I ran out of daylight so had to quit, but it was a pleasant work day with a variety of neighbors stopping by all day.  Some hadn't had a tour of the finished cottage. 
   AnnaMarie was very pleased with the end result and can't wait to plant.
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Offline flyingvan

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #153 on: March 24, 2013, 08:26:29 AM »


    This is a picture of the porch ceiling.  There's a beam, and fiber cement board and trim that meets it.  Something I hadn't tried before was caulking all the seams, even where the trim overlapped the sheet material.  I caulked everything--anywhere one piece of material met another. 
    With the white paint even the slightest crack looks like a black line.  There's a bigger benefit though---now that it's Springtime, there are no spider webs showing up.  I think I eliminated all the potential hiding spots.  I just finished cleaning the similar but un-caulked porch ceiling at home and decided to tackle this one, too---there wasn't a single spider to be found.
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Offline flyingvan

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #154 on: April 09, 2013, 04:13:19 PM »
   My tenants at my first build (which was designed for weekend use but is now a full time residence)  really want/need a laundry room.  We are limited to 12' height for outbuildings so I'm digging in---the laundry room will be below grade, with guest quarters above and a nice elevated deck.  I'll take pics tomorrow of the excavation.
    I still support the theory that most of good building is digging.  Might as well learn to like it.
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Offline flyingvan

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #155 on: April 14, 2013, 06:17:00 PM »
   So here's the start.....I'm digging a 9x8 hole 
and dug an upward slope into the hillside.  The idea here is to have the laundry room below and  extra storage room (12x14 with a loft) built above it.  I'm limited to 12' height, so the roofline will follow the slope, and the lanudry room will be dug in deep enough to have headroom
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Offline flyingvan

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #156 on: May 10, 2013, 06:22:42 AM »
Just some progress on the big dig....We're pretty short staffed at work and, like every other year, they're expecting higher than normal wildfire activity so the copter's been in high demand....
Anyway, I found the bottom.  The entrance to the underground laundry room comes upslope so there'll be natural drainage through a french drain under the slab.  The studio above will have a completely separate entrance so no room will be wasted with stairs or ladders.  I did some more research and I'm limited to 12' height and 120 square feet of floor so it's 12x12 with a small covered deck area above the laundry.  I'll curve the roof so it complements the main structure


  My daughter's home from college.  You can tell how much she helped by how dirty she isn't
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Offline flyingvan

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #157 on: May 24, 2013, 02:20:11 PM »
Here's a little update for the outbuilding project at the cabin---

    It's basically a 12x12 shed.  Outbuildings are restricted to 12' height limit and I wanted the laundry room below grade to avoid pipe freezing issues.  The entrance slopes away snd with it a french drain that will go under the slab.  There will be two entrances---one up above for the main shed (with loft) and one for laundry below.  This will eliminate interior stairs which just take up space.  The slope is 4:1 so I'm taking advantage. 
     Once you get down about 54", the soil turns from clay to DG.  It's great stuff to build from, very stable.   There IS a layer of expansive soil but it's only about 8" of the layering and isn't an issue. 






All hand dug.  Still have fottings to dig for the upper part then time for forms
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Offline flyingvan

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #158 on: August 05, 2013, 05:31:21 AM »
  It's been awhile----mostly because it's been a busy fire season and everyone wants a helicopter.  Also quite a few other things that got backburnered while finishing AnnaMarie's cottage needed attention.
  With the digging mostly done (except for some trenches for the grey water system, which will be infiltrators) it's time to start mixing and pouring.  I'm going to build slip forms for the underground walls.   
   I really want to do all I can do to keep moisture out so there's a french drain down the middle with gravel trenches cut to it.  Water shouldn't even get close to the slab...They sell this sock cover thing to put over the perforated pipe that's supposed to keep soil out; sounds like cheap insurance.  I ran the drain ABS through the same trench.


   Next all the trenches got filled up with gravel.  THe main trench under the floor runs downslope to natural daylight.

     

  Now for the footing, which is the first pour.  It's dug out as an undercut, which my soil held just fine but it's one rainstorm away from filling itself in.  The form is simply a rectangle out of 2x4's temporarily held square by a diagonal support.  It was harder than I thought it would be to get it in the correct position so it lined up with the trenches for the rest of the outbuilding that will be above all this.  Then staked it all level (a trick to getting it perfect---start with a stake in each corner and screw it in 1/4" higher than needed, then tap the stakes in to get the form exactly level) then add more stakes to the middles.  Then line the whole thing with visqueen, both as a vapor barrier and to keep from pouring concrete directly onto soil (which will absorb too much of the water from the concrete).  All the seams of the visqueen were taped with chemtape and the pipe was wrapped where it went through concrete so it can move a little.



   There are two courses of rebar through the footing, with rebar bent into 'L's that are wired to keep the two courses where they belong on the bottom then going vertical for the walls later.
    I really didn't worry about a perfect finish on top of the footing, except where the door will be since the rest of it will get walls poured over them anyway. 



  It'll have a few days to cure before I can get back there.  I slopped a little extra concrete onto the floor--it'll support the rewire grate.  Thursday I will pull out the form and pour the floor, using the edges of the footing to screed the concrete flat.  After that sets it'll be time for the slip forms for the walls.
   For the slipforms and floor I'll be able to dump the concrete in with 5 gallon buckets but for this footing it took a shovel,  With the trench undercut like that I couldn't get the right angle to dump a bucket.
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Offline flyingvan

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #159 on: August 09, 2013, 06:14:05 AM »
Next step----pouring the floor.


   I stripped the forms and kept one of the 2x4's to screed.  I really hate pouring good concrete on dirt, so there's a vapor barrier down.  I left a gap over the french drain though so I wouldn't trap water under the slab.  This IS a laundry room after all so it WILL flood someday.  The drain ABS has a very high tech wrapping to keep concrete away, an old sock and white duct tape.



   AnnaMarie wandered over to keep me company, and spent her time seeing how high she could stack acorn caps.  Her record was 10.  Her presence always has a profound calming effect and I was very glad she was there.

 

    All poured.  Since I put in quite a bit of time making sure the footings were exactly level, screeding the floor flat using the footing as the guides was easy, just a bit of a contortion act reaching everywhere to float it.  Next will be the horizontal rebar and the slip forms.
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Offline flyingvan

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #160 on: August 15, 2013, 05:22:54 PM »
OK on to the next step....Things haven't slowed down at work so they slowed down at this job.. 
   First step was to get the materials down there.  You can't get a truck anywhere near so everything has to be carried in.  90 pounds is about my limit, and each of these sacks seemed to weigh a pound more than the one prior.  Having the pallet staged next to the drystack wall worked great because I never had to bend all the way over to pick up a sack.  The premix stuff was sweetened a bit with some extra cement thrown in the mixer.

  Here's the slip  form just prior to pouring.  The wood is all plastic lined for a smooth finish.  It also reduces honeycomb voids because the concrete slides down it.  This is right in front of the threshold.  The concrete is continuous well past the door to keep moisture out.  If you look down to the left you can see the stub of a carriage bolt held in the frame---it will give me something to hold the door frame in with.  The door rough-in size is 34" so I have 34" lumber holding the frame to that width.
 
Here's a better pic of the carriage bolt from the other side.  It'll be well embedded in the concrete and I'll place one every 24" as I go up.
 
Then, the pour.  I planned to use 5 gallon buckets to pour concrete in the form but the angles were all wrong so I just shoveled it in from the wheelbarrow and tamped and vibrated the forms as I went.  I know it looks like a really wet mix.  I think with the plastic forms there's nowhere for moisture to go but up.

 What I didn't get a picture of is, just in front of the threshold.  I wanted really strong support for the left and right walls on either side of the door so I trenched and formed an extension to the existing threshold, with lots of rebar.  So, the concrete goes, in one continuous pour, around the perimeter, then down along the ground joining the left and right like a thick 'U'. That should keep either side from buckling in over time and making the door stick.

  Next week I'll slip the form up 16" and do it again.  THAT will be hard--only because I'll have to lift the shovel a bit higher every scoop.  The third pour will be a more complicated form---I'll be past the point where the existing soil excavation makes the back of the form so I'll form the outside as well, but the pouring will be easier since I can do it from above and just dump the wheelbarrow.
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Offline flyingvan

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #161 on: September 15, 2013, 07:14:21 AM »


    We get some monsoonal weather systems through here in the summer---'Chubascos'.  They can really dump the rain and hail---we got well over a foot of rain last week and some decent flash floods.  Excellent for the trees and the lake, not so good for below grade building.   I'll have to dig this all out to strip the forms.  It's very rich soil though and I've got a good place for it.   
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Offline flyingvan

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #162 on: November 30, 2013, 06:57:43 AM »
    AnnaMarie and I were just starting the Christmas decorating when this rainbow appeared over the house....I'll have to get some decorated pictures posted, maybe after the first snowfall
   You can see the generator housing in the background there.....Really, it's all plumb---the cheap camera fishbowls things a bit
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Offline eddie1278

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #163 on: December 15, 2013, 04:23:09 AM »
Electric Rant...

    Just got off the phone with someone who needed electrical basics explained.   I've found with all the steps invloved with building, electrical was one of the easiest steps, just keep the NEC book on hand as a reference.  There's one thing that bugged me, so I didn't really comply with the letter of the law, explained to my inspector why, and he agreed!
   

   Arc fault circuits.  It's the breaker with a white pigtail that goes into the neutral bar.  There's circuitry that detects an arc, like from a frayed cord, that isn't shorted enough to trip a breaker but IS shorted enough to burn a house down.  They went from being required in just bedroom outlets, to ceiling lights too, to any living area.  Word on the street is, enforcing this rule has been pretty loose.
   Here's the thing.  I DID install the arc fault circuit for the outlets, but the ceiling lights are on a regular breaker.  The smoke detectors and CO detector must be hardwired in, with a battery backup.  OK so far....Also, the smoke detectors should be wired to a circuit that gets used regularly, so if that circuit trips for whatever reason, it won't go unnoticed.  That's a good idea too, in my opinion.  So my detectors are wired in with the upstairs ceiling lights.  Now they want those ceiling lights on an arc fault protected circuit.  It makes no sense whatsoever to put my smoke and CO detectors on a circuit designed to trip if there's an electrical arc somewhere!  Fortunately my inspector agreed.  (I had a spare breaker ready to plug in anyway if he insisted).

   Basic wiring rules----

1) Black (or red) is hot.  They go to the brass screws on switches and outlets.  White are neutral.  Don't reverse these.
2) 15 amp breakers get 14 AWG wire or better.  20's get 12 AWG.  Don't try to put 15 amp switches or outlets on 12 AWG wire.
3) Balance your two hot legs coming into the house---the goal is to have as little load on your neutral, which basically dumps into the ground, as possible.  You wil actually use less electricity if you pay attention to this detail.....If your TV is always on, or there's some light always on, put those on the leg the fridge isn't on.  If you list out all your electrical needs and guess at how often each thing is used, then divide them between one leg and the other (the two 'hots' coming in) you're doing good.  The neutral is the same throughout the house, so if you're using two 100 watt bulbs on the same leg (even if they are on different breakers) that hot is energizing your bulbs, going to neutral, then returning to ground or the powerplant.  If those same two bulbs are on different legs, some of the return through the neutral goes back through the other bulb that's in a different phase.  Your meter spins slower, your building is more efficient.

  I kind of went overboard with this theme---my outlets in the kitchen are wired with one leg on top, the other on the bottom.
4) VERY IMPORTANT---ground and bond everything---water, gas, foundation rebar.  A very common mistake is people cut their copper pipe and put a water filter in line.  One side is grounded and bonded, the other isn't.  You just built a battery---one side is energized with any unbalanced neutral current, the other isn't.  Minerals in your water will take advantage of the potential and you'll start getting pinhole leaks in the plumbing where ions are being stripped away.  Any place you make a break in your plumbing you have to bond it---just bridge it with some copper wire and copper clamps so everything metal is joined together.  When there IS a short somewhere, you want the path of least resistance to be parts of your house, not you or a family member.
5) Always switch through the hot, never the neutral......If you followed rule #1 you did this already.  If you ran the white wire through the switch to that ceiling light, and that white wire was properly wired as the neutral, it WILL work.  The light will turn on and off....However, the appliance is still energized.  Wiring it backwards means you've made the whole thing 'hot' all the time, and when you flip the switch you ground it and the light comes on.  In a few years you climb your metal ladder to change that bulb, thinking it's dead because the light's out, then you can't figure out why you're taking 110v and trying not to fall.
6) If you get weird electrical problems, like some lights are super bright while others are dim, TV's are smoking, lights are coming on by themselves---you lost your neutral somewhere, either the panel or the acorn nut in the drip loop, and the electricity is backfeeding through the other leg.  Or maybe your house is possessed by evil spirits.

Yet lots of things you say are wrong. d*  I'm an electrician that has been properly trained and do it everyday I'm not a diyer.   
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 09:29:39 PM by MountainDon »

Offline rick91351

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #164 on: December 15, 2013, 05:02:26 AM »
Yet lots of things you say are wrong. d*  I'm an electrician that has been properly trained and do it everyday I'm not a diyer.   

And that sir is the reason I hired out my plumbing and electrical.   [waiting]  Okay along with several other trades. 




 
Proverbs 24:3-5 Through wisdom is an house builded; an by understanding it is established.  4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.  5 A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.

Offline MountainDon

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #165 on: December 15, 2013, 06:01:56 AM »
Quote
Yet lots of things you say are wrong. d*  I'm an electrician that has been properly trained and do it everyday I'm not a diyer.


It would be educational to have what you see as a couple of the more serious offenses explained to us. Thanks in advance and  w*

DonM
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 06:52:48 AM by MountainDon »
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

Offline flyingvan

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #166 on: December 15, 2013, 07:50:13 AM »
Yes---I'd appreciate that too.  My need to be right is way lower on my list than my need to not electrocute anybody or burn my house down. 

  I have no doubt a concrete guy could find thngs in my foundation he'd do different.  Same with a framer, plumber, glazier, architect, roofer, interior decorator, cabinet maker, stone mason.    I still maintain comparing all those disciplines, electrical was the easiest---NEC is pretty clear and easy to follow and there aren't so many variables.    I believe I followed the electrical code, and my inspector sure didn't pencil whip anything...

   That said, if you're offering free constructive criticism, could you look at my thread titled 'portable generators'?   My resources were pretty slim on assuring that was all done correctly.  Now THAT project had variables galore---inlet pressure, generator sizing, grounding and bonding, heat loss, etc.. We've already had to use it for a 42 hour grid failure and everything worked as planned, although I had to explain to the neighbor way down across the street why we couldn't just run 1000' worth of extension cords from my generator to her fridge....

    MY training is in fire suppression.  By far the most common  point of origin is 'faulty wiring'.    That faulty wiring is rarely from a DIY project (push ins, aluminum wires, improperly sized wires are frequent culprits)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 08:12:33 AM by flyingvan »
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Offline eddie1278

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #167 on: December 15, 2013, 05:00:55 PM »
Yes---I'd appreciate that too.  My need to be right is way lower on my list than my need to not electrocute anybody or burn my house down. 

  I have no doubt a concrete guy could find thngs in my foundation he'd do different.  Same with a framer, plumber, glazier, architect, roofer, interior decorator, cabinet maker, stone mason.    I still maintain comparing all those disciplines, electrical was the easiest---NEC is pretty clear and easy to follow and there aren't so many variables.    I believe I followed the electrical code, and my inspector sure didn't pencil whip anything...

   That said, if you're offering free constructive criticism, could you look at my thread titled 'portable generators'?   My resources were pretty slim on assuring that was all done correctly.  Now THAT project had variables galore---inlet pressure, generator sizing, grounding and bonding, heat loss, etc.. We've already had to use it for a 42 hour grid failure and everything worked as planned, although I had to explain to the neighbor way down across the street why we couldn't just run 1000' worth of extension cords from my generator to her fridge....

    MY training is in fire suppression.  By far the most common  point of origin is 'faulty wiring'.    That faulty wiring is rarely from a DIY project (push ins, aluminum wires, improperly sized wires are frequent culprits)

Honestly almost everything you say about electrical work is completely absurd and I don't even know where to begin. ???  I will say I'm glad you have fire training...

Offline Redoverfarm

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #168 on: December 15, 2013, 05:20:50 PM »
It is very easy to play "Monday Morning Quaterback" .  But when the specifics come around to which plays should have been made the reply often comes to " I wouldn't have done it that way" .  How do we learn from our mistakes?  In every building trades there are differences in procedures but most of all are allowed as long as they are following code.  The most experienced tradesmen are able to accomplish the end results while doing the job right and saving time and material. 

Offline MountainDon

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #169 on: December 15, 2013, 05:44:11 PM »
Honestly almost everything you say about electrical work is completely absurd and I don't even know where to begin.

eddie1278, that should be easy. Pick something from flyingvan's post you originally quoted... Use a copy and paste to make it easy. Let us all know what it is that is absurd, wrong, unsafe, whatever. It should not be all that difficult if you as a trained electrician can see a fault in what was done or a flaw in the expressed thinking. Most of us are here to learn as well as display things we have built. I know I have learned from the time I became a participating member. There are some things I am very good at, some things I am not. I like to help others and I like it when others point out errors and omissions so I can learn. So why not show us the flaws/faults and tell us why it is wrong and/or how it should have be done.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

Offline eddie1278

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #170 on: December 15, 2013, 05:46:39 PM »
I could point out all his bad info but it would take too much time honestly.  And honestly I only chimed in because he claims all you need is a code book to do electrical work and "it was the easiest" and HE had to explain basic electricity to someone but yet many basic things he claimed to know are wrong.

I will say he needs to learn the differences in grounding, grounded, and bonded.  That is a major problem lots of DIYers have and you can't learn this stuff from a code book.

I have 8000 hours apprenticeship training and years of working in the field.  If anyone thinks just knowing code is the only thing you need to know to do electrical work they are sadly mistaken. 

Also from the NEC

Qualified Person. One who has skills and knowledge related
to the construction and operation of the electrical
equipment and installations and has received safety training
to recognize and avoid the hazards involved.


and..

Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification
or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

Offline MountainDon

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #171 on: December 15, 2013, 06:06:02 PM »
I could point out all his bad info but it would take too much time honestly.

Just one thing and the "fix" would be helpful. You mentioned grounding and bonding; yes that is an area that confuses some. Is there some other more simple to explain issue; one not requiring It need not requiring a lengthy commitment of time.

Hopefully you have found some information here that has been helpful to you. A small repayment should not be too much to ask, I would think. But then again, I could be wrong on my assumptions.


I would appreciate your wisdom on this as one of the things I personally consider important is building in a safe manner. That's from the ground up,  the foundation to the roof with heating, ventilation, insulation, plumbing and yes, electricity included. If you have looked around here much you may have observed questions or critique from myself and other knowledgeable folks on a number of occasions. You would have also noted that when members with expertise in some area of construction raises an issue they make suggestions as to what could or should be done to correct the situation. By and large we do not simply say "that is wrong". We continue with a "here's what would work better", sort of a thing. The whole point of the forum, IMO is to help others to do a better job if not the best job. Doesn't that make a lot of sense?

« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 02:13:10 PM by MountainDon »
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

Offline eddie1278

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #172 on: December 15, 2013, 06:57:21 PM »
Just one thing and the "fix" would be helpful. You mentioned grounding and bonding; yes that is an area that confuses some. Is there some other more simple to explain issue; one not requiring It need not requiring a lengthy commitment of time.

Hopefully you have found some information here that has been helpful to you. A small repayment should not be too much to ask, I would think. But then again, I could be wrong on my assumptions.


I would appreciate your wisdom on this as one of the things I personally consider important is building in a safe manner. That's from the ground up,  the foundation to the roof with heating, ventilation, insulation, plumbing and yes, electricity included. If you have looked around here much you may have observed questions or critique from myself and other knowledgeable folks on a number of occasions. You would have also noted that when members with expertise in some area of construction raises an issue they make suggestions as to what could or should be done to correct the situation. By and large we do not simply sat "that is wrong". We continue with a "here's what would work better", sort of a thing. The whole point of the forum, IMO is to help others to do a better job if not the best job. Doesn't that make a lot of sense?




No time tonight getting ready to hit the hay work tomorrow.  I will reply back tmorrow night sometime.

Offline flyingvan

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    • flyingvan
Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #173 on: December 15, 2013, 08:31:29 PM »
    Here are my sources---first, the national electrical code.  Second, for the theoretical stuff, from a good friend that has a masters in electrical engineering---he's the one that explained to me the importance of balancing the two legs and the less load on the neutral, the more efficiently the house runs.  He showed me graphs and things that were well beyond my level of understanding but I'll use him as a resource to verify any conceptual issues that arise here. 
     But I'm glad you're chiming in here, Eddie.  First, if you can convince me that, as an amateur, I've wired something incorrectly that I can change, I'll be in your debt.  If you are not able to do that, I'll assume it's a blow to your ego to see people can successfully wire entire houses after reading a book or two and understanding the concepts. 
      You've already provided some valuable examples of fallacious argument, the study of which is a hobby of mine.

"Honestly everything you say about electrical work is completely absurd..."
 
Excellent example of an Ad Hominem attack.   Attack the person, not the argument.  You've had time to provide multiple replies to provide an example of something unsafe this amateur has done, but instead attack the amateur.

"I have 8000 hours of apprenticeship and years working in the field".  "I am an electrician who has been properly trained and do it every day I am not a diyer"
 (Keep in mind this is a DIYer website)  This is a classic example of "Argument from authority".   the claim that the speaker is an expert, and so should be trusted.
There are degrees and areas of expertise. The speaker is actually claiming to be more expert, in the relevant subject area, than anyone else in the room. There is also an implied claim that expertise in the area is worth having. For example, claiming expertise in something hopelessly quack (like iridology) is actually an admission that the speaker is gullible.

Another anticipated fallacious argument here is "Non Sequitur".  There are two things going on here---one, how my house is wired and two, my conceptual understanding of electricity.  It's possible that I have a misunderstanding of electrical physics but still wired my houses correctly.  It is also possible I understand physics perfectly but made a practical error in wiring. 

"Appeal To Authority".   Taking a selective quote from the NEC to draw your own conclusion about who is 'qualified'.   

   Are you planning on building, Eddie?  Will you hire out everything except the wiring?  I had a very similar conversation with an architect who would not accept I could draw my own plans without training.  I am not qualified for that either.  Plumbing?  again, in my opinion much tougher than electrical, I'm not qualified, but the toilets in my first owner/builder project still flush perfectly after 10 years, into a septic system I wasn't qualified to install.  I wasn't qualified to frame, pour a foundation, create some stone work, run fiber optics, do roofing, figure sheer loading, or any of the other tasks required to construct a home. 
If you've done any of these things, Eddie, you were probably no more 'qualified' to do them than we are to run wire.  If you haven't, you are no authority on what the most difficult, and what the easiest, stages of construction are!
   But we are diy'ers.  We find forums like this to get over the hurdles.  We use common sense, and research the span tables and nailing schedules and required strong ties and proper wire gauges and breaker amps.  We read the NEC to learn what gets grounded and bonded.  We look to the IPC or UPC to learn how much through roof vent net area we need.   We study airflows and btu's and return air and combustion air; carbon monoxide can make people just as dead as electricity if not handled correctly.

   Finally--I've walked through quite a few mass produced homes, in various stages of construction, built by qualified people.  Know what I noticed?  'Qualified' gets you to the point where you know the shortcuts.  You learn what the very minimum to pass inspection are.  The goal is speed and low cost to get the subcontracts, not the very best house that can be built.  I could have passed inspection with 2x4 walls, but for a few hundred dollars more framed it with 2x6's.  It's superior for a number of reasons, but saving that few hundred dollars times 10,000 units adds up.  Most mass produced houses around here are wired with 14AWG wire throughout; for a little more, I went with 12AWG.  Can you tell me how this will burn my house down?

   By the way, if your home is ever on fire, PLEASE don't wait for us qualified, trained professionals to evacuate your house and provide your own fire suppression.  It will harm my ego exactly zero to hear you used your own hose and fire extinguisher to safely mitigate the situation.  I trust your abilities extend beyond your electrical expertise.

Find what you love and let it kill you.

Offline rick91351

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Re: 716 sq. ft. Cuyamaca Cottage
« Reply #174 on: December 16, 2013, 07:20:44 AM »
The cool part to flyingvan's build is he did do it himself and it was passed by an electrical inspector.  Especially a California inspector.  It is assumed it was with in code or it would have not been signed off.  Case closed....

Reason I went with the trades on my current build is they know their stuff can get in and get out quickly and I have a weather window to be concerned about.  I was sure not afraid to tackle it.  In fact the electrician I hired was great to work with shared so much of his knowledge.  An issue I see here.  He also let me have as much ownership in his wiring as I wanted.         

Second thing I would like to toss out here is in wiring, plumbing and sewer that I have done and pulled permits for.  Those were inspected to a much greater degree than anyone I have ever hired.  Most of my inspections with the trades I have hired building this current house and remodels in the past were just basically a walk through, a proclamation of good job and signed off. DIY it is a fine tooth comb yes Virginia there is a difference.   

As far as the 8000 hours I am not too impressed with that and claims working in the field.  I was a darn good locomotive engineer with 35 years working in the field.  I kept up on the new rules and instructions.  I never was disciplined in a field that is unheard of.  Really it is / was unheard of.  I worked along side people that had more seniority, did not know very much about what they were doing, did not care.  They were always in trouble.  But just send me the paycheck.

I have never been impressed with those in the trades that treat them as if they are some super secret voodoo witch-doctor cult.  Instead using it as knowledge is power and using it to empower someone.  All I see here out of you is - I know (if you really do) but I sure am not going to share because some on might learn something about my super secret to me trade.                 
Proverbs 24:3-5 Through wisdom is an house builded; an by understanding it is established.  4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.  5 A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.

 

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