OFF GRID POWER; various thoughts on...

[glenn kangiser]

I think you may be able to do better piecing your own solar together than buying a kit - however there could be good kit deals too.

Sunelec - panels sometimes under $2 per watt plus shipping.  Various good full sine wave inverters out there - sometime Ebay if you are careful. 

[glenn kangiser]

Hey Doc, I doc-umented a bit of my wind generator installation for you.  

I took a few pix of it yesterday before I went off to work.  Here is a pix of the whole thing - 85 feet tall.  I forgot to mention that I did do the thing with keeping the side cables tight and tilting with a gin pole and come-along anchored to a tree, with a couple exceptions.  In that area my ground averages 20 to 30% grade and I did not want to cut trees so the side cables had to be alternately extended or routed around trees as it became necessary ie: the west cables were  anchored at roughly 6 feet lower elevation than the east cables and the south cables were at roughly 10 feet lower than the north cables.




A telephoto shot of the generator at 85 feet elevation from the ground in front of my shop.  Note that the Bergey uses slip rings and the cables hang down inside the tower - #4 wire to appx 150 feet to the controller.




I cut out plates to the diameter of the pipe plus about 1/16th inch to allow them to rest on top of the pipe coupler but still rotate.  I welded chain links to the plate to attach the cables to and prevent wear.  Tight collars would not have allowed for screwing the pipes together and would not self align with cable tension.




Here I drilled a hole in an existing natural rock with a roto-hammer and epoxied an eyebolt with a welded loop (can't unbend in a wind storm) into about a 6 inch deep hole.  I wanted that much embedment to hopefully get past any chance of fracture.  The hole was completely filled with epoxy (Hilti HY150) to prevent intrusion of water and freeze fracturing the rock causing a failure.



Here is a natural rock I moved to location with my John Deere trackhoe loader bucket - estimated weight 6000 lbs.  Note that I calculated cable lengths then added about 10 feet due to the uneven terrain.  At install I ran the cables through the eyes and cut the cables with the extra length as needed.  Tower elevation at the base was not the same as any of the anchor points, hence the problem with changing lengths.  pull on any of the cables when standing is not over 50 lbs.  Raising is another story.




Here is my base plate and hinge for the tower - the round stakes are probably 7/8 sucker rod about 3 feet long - at least 4 of them there as I recall.  The cable from the tower there is a ground and the gen cables are in the grass - not visible.  I got the gin pole a little close to the tower pivot - it was removed when done and was mounted in a hole this side of the tower pivot.  No worries about the loose nut there --- it is really just a pin retainer - no other function.  



And last - a shot looking from the base level up to the generator at the top 85 feet up.



Cable clamps... "Never saddle a dead horse" - put the saddle over the live side of the cable and the u section over the cut off end - less chance of cutting the live side with clamping pressure over the years.

I hope that demonstrates the ease with which one can do it yourself and save money.....    

[AdironDoc]

Sorry for the late reply, Glenn. I've been up one last time to the camp to see how it's been cleared, and to take a water sample from what I believe to be a springbox. 6ft x 3ft concrete. The timbers and roof have fallen in, but I've poked a stick down over 3ft. Don't know how deep it is once it's cleaned out, but it's an interesting find nonetheless.  Not even sure what use I'd have for it.

Your mast installation is great! I can't believe the height you achieved on your own. Is that sched 40 pipe you used? It looks larger than 1.5". I'm not sure what the local zoning is, but I hope to come up to at least 50ft to 60ft for cleaner wind. Hope since I'm on 35 fairly remote acres, nobody would say much in any event. Only thing is, the highest point (up on a ridge) is 150ft from my neighbors cabin lot. I'll scout around for a suitable location as far from him as possible.

I just bought a Superwinch portable winch in a bag to help out hoisting. Rated at 2500lbs and runs 12V. My Windtura750, with rotor and frame weighs in at 66lbs, so not too bad. They recommend sched 80 1.5". I'll more than likely go with common HomeDepot sched 40 galvanized instead, which is what many other wind turbine manufacturers recommend. Unlike your welds, I figure on using simple plumber's connectors and T-fittings. My welding needs some practice! Like you, I'll use a tree as a winch anchor and later remove the 30ft gin pole.

Thanks for the tips on solar panels. I've been browsing Sunelec's site and think a 480W setup on a pole will be perfect. You've inspired some new ideas, Glenn.

Doc

[glenn kangiser]

No problem, Doc.

My mast is using blow pipe I had left over from well drilling - actually it is a 4" tubing a bit heavier than 4" exhaust tubing - maybe 1/8 to 3/16 inch thick.  Bergey uses a similar material on their tower.  You can go to their site and download the tower manual for clues on building and installation.  Downward loading is very low so heavy pipe is not necessary with the guy wires.

Wind generators do make a bit of noise but usually not unpleasant as the blades sweep through the air.  Not too far from your batteries on distance or there is a lot of line voltage loss.  I asked the county here if a permit was required and they said yes so I put it up without one anyway - my story was going to be that the installation was experimental and temporary with the stakes in the base, but that was 8 years ago and still no one has said anything at all.  IN the meantime the county guy was fired for corruption and the second one was fired for messing with the citizens too much- lots of un-permitted buildings up here by public officials families.  

I tested the Sunelec grade B panels  - they are every bit as good as the more expensive ones in my opinion and meet all specs.

Glad I could kick in so useful info.  

[AdironDoc]

I was looking at some of your threads, Glenn. Really remarkable. oI think you should write a book.

I wonder if you'd make a recommendation on gin-pole length. Pipe lengths come in 10' here so I'd be at 40-60ft depending on final site inspection. Can I figure on roughly 1/2 of the mast height? Do you put a pulley on the end of the gin-pole or fix it securely and then on to near the top of mast? Did you find it necessary to double guy the gin pole to the mast at more than one point, such as near the top, and 1/2 way between?

[AdironDoc]

I've noticed that my Sams does not list the batteries on the web, but does carry the batteries in stock. My Costco does not carry batteries but the one across town does.  puzzling

Don, your advice paid off. No local batteries on the web, but I called around and found them at Sams. A $30 membership and a one hour drive later and I found myself now a member of 3 warehouse clubs. I did it to score 6 Energizer GC6 220AH batteries at $72 each. After opening a charge card so I could pay (all I had was visa and amex), I got an additional $20 off. After I put in for a 30% tax credit for all my solar project receipts, that's $48 per battery! Awesome!

Just wanted to say thanks for your advice!

By the way, my project calls for the batteries in a couple months. Until then, I don't want to harm them over the winter. Should I cycle them already or can I leave them be?

Doc

[glenn kangiser]

If you have them near power just keep a small float battery charger on them - series 2 6's if necessary and  parallel the sets to use one charger for 12 volts.  If they go down and stand while low they could sulfate.

A good charge once in a while could do also.  Don't ask me if I take care of my batteries that well....

[glenn kangiser]

I was looking at some of your threads, Glenn. Really remarkable. oI think you should write a book.

I wonder if you'd make a recommendation on gin-pole length. Pipe lengths come in 10' here so I'd be at 40-60ft depending on final site inspection. Can I figure on roughly 1/2 of the mast height? Do you put a pulley on the end of the gin-pole or fix it securely and then on to near the top of mast? Did you find it necessary to double guy the gin pole to the mast at more than one point, such as near the top, and 1/2 way between?

I have thought about a book a couple times - looked into it a little but it seems I am a bit too lazy to do it so far..... ... but thanks anyway.... maybe someday.

The longer the gin pole, the easier it goes up - but be sure to lay it out so that when pulling it up it doesn't hit the gin pole pulling point/anchor.  I used 25 feet on my 85 footer as there was a tree at about 27' as I recall.. so about 1/3 length of tower should do it.  The gin pole hinges on a separate anchor at the base  about 6 inches away from the tower and a bit higher than the tower anchor bolt would be good to allow it to lay down over the tower pole for hooking cables.  A snatch block could be used at the top of the gin pole for more reduction or just a tough come along or chain hoist - truck winch etc.  I try to think about whatever will work - - go through the steps in my mind - sketch it if necessary to think of possible problems.  I use whatever I have to do the job safely - multiple ways it could be done.

I put a stake in the ground to the side of the tower at 90 degrees from it's base mount to temporarily find proper cable length then transfer them to the gin pole as proper length is found.  Generally I figure 3 cable clamps for full cable strength but it varies a bit depending on size if I recall correctly.  Note that the gin pole will attach to the cables temporarily somewhere around the top 2/3 of the cable length depending on anchor spacing.  Seems mine were about 50 feet from the base in 4 directions.

Use the length of the gin pole for distance from base - shorten a few feet to keep the pole off of the ground when the tower is plumb.  I used one cable at every 20 feet on the tower and attached them at their proper length to the gin pole so that the entire tower would come up at once as the gin pole was pulled down.  Even a 4 inch tower is remarkably flimsy until properly guyed.  I think a 20 foot gin pole would do you for 60 feet.

Another caution - be sure to have the back cables attached  and not over loose or when it goes past center it will continue falling - possibly on you.  I know - obvious but thought I would mention it.  I calculated the lengths of the cables - left them extra long by 10 feet or so as I mentioned then fastened them a bit snug for when the mast was vertical , then adjusted each of them carefully until it was plumb - I used a nut driver for speed - .  Side cables can be attached snug if on level ground - if like mine they may need adjustment - I raised - checked - raised - checked - adjusted - til done.

[AdironDoc]

Great info, Glenn. On your recommendation, I've sketched out my plan for a 20 on 60 gin/mast setup. Please tell me if you see any room for changes or improvements.

Btw.. I knew the roots of cattails were loaded with starch, but after a visit to your youtube channel, I'm going to try cooking with them this spring. Now that should be interesting. Cattail "potatoes" and salted pine chips, pine nut cake, and spruce tea. I'll try anything once. 

[glenn kangiser]

That looks pretty good, Doc.  

I need to try the cattails also.  Almost did but didn't quite get around to it.

I'm not an engineer so tend to go a bit on the conservative side and hope I'm good.  

I used just the stakes and a steel base that I built from what I could gather from the Bergey info - clues.  I am not worried about the concrete base and bars - you would likely want to relieve it in the area of the tee or add couplers to the short nipples  to allow more sitting on the base for a little more support as it goes up - that is likely not even critical though.

The 10 feet of 1 1/2 above the last coupler with the generator bothers me a little - also the 30 feet un-guyed at the bottom.  If it was mine I might add a 5 foot section of pipe at the top to mount the generator on cutting down leverage on the threads at the top above the guy, guy at 60', 40' and 20' and temp the three of those to the top of the gin pole for raising.  Watch for binding where the bottom pipe sits on the concrete so it doesn't bend and snap off there - again something to watch - likely not a problem.

The ten feet may be OK with the generator but some rough rule of thumb stuff - wind exerts around 30 psf at 100 mph If I recall correctly.  5 foot 5 blade  fan and about a foot generator - not sure how turning affects it -  say 10 square feet of surface - x 30 psf =300 lbs push in a giant wind x 10 feet gives us 3000 foot lbs at the 1 1/2 inch cut threads at the coupler at the top guy.  Cut threads weaken the pipe.  I'd feel better at 5 feet and 1500 foot lbs at the last guy.  Maybe I am way off and any engineers here feel free to correct me... just trying to make a good guess.

[Squirl]

Sorry If I am late to the discussion, the Off Grid thread can be hard to keep up with.  I studied the Bergey installation guide too. What I liked was how they used steel plate, angle iron, and large bolts for the gin pole design instead of the T.
 Doc,I have never seen designs for 1.5" diameter pipe that tall. Most commercial towers I have seen sold are 4-6 inch.  I have seen them as low as 2" at the top. I am with glenn in the distances of unsupported pole.  Personally I would be using guy wires every 10 ft with that thin of pipe, starting at the lowest place to clear the blades.  It might be cheaper to buy bigger pipe than more wires.  Let us know how it works out.  Otherpower.com has a great walkthrough with good pictures on tilting up towers.  On estimating the wind, I did a walkthrough on a homebuilt wind meter here.  You can find it by checking my old posts.  There are also many wind maps for NY on the web.  On the subject of permitting, anything over 16ft requires a permit in my county.  I found a loophole in NY state laws.  There are right to farm laws in almost every state including NY.  There is a provision for wind turbines for power.  This is to stop local municipalities from harassing farmers with zoning/permitting.  My recollection was that it required 7 continuous acres to be considered under right to farm laws.  I don't know if tree farming qualifies.


Edit:
Here is a link to right to farm laws:
http://www.nationalaglawcenter.org/assets/righttofarm/index.html

[AdironDoc]

Doc,I have never seen designs for 1.5" diameter pipe that tall. Most commercial towers I have seen sold are 4-6 inch.  I have seen them as low as 2" at the top. I am with glenn in the distances of unsupported pole.  Personally I would be using guy wires every 10 ft with that thin of pipe, starting at the lowest place to clear the blades.  It might be cheaper to buy bigger pipe than more wires.  Let us know how it works out.  

Thanks, guys. Although my new wind unit will come with a mount for 1.5" galvanized, I could always use a larger diameter for the base and reducers on the way up. I'll guy it as suggested, at 10ft increments, or, just above each fitting and as high as possible, say half way up the final  length.

At the moment, my little 30lb setup sits atop a 34ft Rohn telescoping mast which although guyed every 8ft, is made of very thin pipe. The thickness reminds me of lightweight fence tubing that makes up the top rail of a chain link fence. Amazingly strong when guyed properly. 34ft ends up weighing only 40lbs. I figured at 60lbs, and an additional 25ft up, galvanized would be a big step up.

[AdironDoc]

That was a clever loophole, Squirl. Don't know that I'd qualify on that one, but I googled wind turbine heigh restrictions and see most upstate county zoning laws put a height restriction of somewhere around 100ft give or take. Distance from property lines seems to vary greatly from a distance equal to the height, to over 300ft with sound limitations as well. I should be fine at a meager 60ft.

Ostensibly, my land is considered unimproved being raw acreage of forest. That doesn't stop the town/county from very high taxation. My 35 acres will end up costing me as much as my home in the suburbs of NYC. Now whether a wind turbine is a permanent structure or capital improvement, thus being taxable, will remain to be seen. I'm hoisting this on the QT.

I found a loophole in NY state laws.  There are right to farm laws in almost every state including NY.  There is a provision for wind turbines for power.  This is to stop local municipalities from harassing farmers with zoning/permitting.  My recollection was that it required 7 continuous acres to be considered under right to farm laws.  I don't know if tree farming qualifies.

Edit:
Here is a link to right to farm laws:
http://www.nationalaglawcenter.org/assets/righttofarm/index.html

[glenn kangiser]

Seems if there are just steel stakes in the ground rather than concrete it is not permanent.  That is the official Bergey mount.

[Squirl]

That was a clever loophole, Squirl. Don't know that I'd qualify on that one, but I googled wind turbine heigh restrictions and see most upstate county zoning laws put a height restriction of somewhere around 100ft give or take. Distance from property lines seems to vary greatly from a distance equal to the height, to over 300ft with sound limitations as well. I should be fine at a meager 60ft.

Good luck.  I always hope people just leave me alone too.  The provision would be more of a backup.  Zoning and permitting are two different things.  If they want to be jerks, they can fine the crap out of someone after the fact.  Anything over 16ft needs a building permit were I am at.

[altaoaks]

ill be looking forward to hearing more about how you do with your new turbine.  it is the same plan i have to back up some solar panels.  i guess since "fees" for permits are so high at my place, the cabin will start out at the 120 sq ft and will be off grid.  i asked them at the placer county hijacking office about a wind turbine, they said no restrictions, but they may be looking at some guidelines going in somewhere in the near future.  but at this time only need a electric permit.  i think, correct me if im wrong, that would only apply if i were grid-tied.

yep, im not going to let them get to me, im just going to do the real cabin down the road.  ill spend the time getting septic in and other things in place, at least we can spend quality weekends there with that.  the good news is also my property taxes will only be about 500 a year until we build, and it sounds like a lot of places are higher than that.

adriondoc, did you buy your set-up, or is it something you set up on your own?  i keep getting these emails from a DIY site who had plans for a homeade set-up you could build on the cheap, and it looked pretty good from an appearance stand point, but from what i am seeing they just really arnt that expensive to buy and install.  anyway, i cant wait to hear how your project is going.

[AdironDoc]

Thanks, and welcome to the forum. I'm learning something every day here from others who have walked our path before.

My first wind project was cobbled together from an alternator I bought on E-bay for $120 based on a rewound delco, blades from windynation.com, and some miscellaneous parts from Home Depot. I got a telescoping mast from Rohn for $140. All told, it's run me around $450. In a brisk breeze the delco type alternators max out at around 40-50W. Not much bang for the buck unless they run continuously.  For me it was more of a feasibility test. It worked, that's clear.

I just bought a larger unit, the Windtura 750, from windynation.com. It puts out 400W in the same breeze the delco gave me 40W in. In a real wind, the numbers are double that. Normally $999, it was marked down to $899, plus 5% off for being a member, and a 30% tax rebate left the price not much more than what I paid for my homebuilt unit. I'm not trying to sell you on any particular model, just to point out that DIY doesn't save all that much in the end. The main cost this time around is 60ft of 2" galvanized pipe with all the fittings for the mast.

As for my cabin.. I looked for months at every conceivable kit available. I finally beat all the prices by finding a local mill owner/builder who would get permits, clear land, and frame the cabin at $36/sq ft. Remember, keep it simple. You can always add on and double the size of what you build later. 

I encourage you to keep a photo journal of every step of  your journey. Post them and write about your decisions, your projects. I've done that in a blog and hope years from now my kids will look back and smile.

cheers, Doc

ill be looking forward to hearing more about how you do with your new turbine.  it is the same plan i have to back up some solar panels.  i guess since "fees" for permits are so high at my place, the cabin will start out at the 120 sq ft and will be off grid.  i asked them at the placer county hijacking office about a wind turbine, they said no restrictions, but they may be looking at some guidelines going in somewhere in the near future.  but at this time only need a electric permit.  i think, correct me if im wrong, that would only apply if i were grid-tied.

yep, im not going to let them get to me, im just going to do the real cabin down the road.  ill spend the time getting septic in and other things in place, at least we can spend quality weekends there with that.  the good news is also my property taxes will only be about 500 a year until we build, and it sounds like a lot of places are higher than that.

adriondoc, did you buy your set-up, or is it something you set up on your own?  i keep getting these emails from a DIY site who had plans for a homeade set-up you could build on the cheap, and it looked pretty good from an appearance stand point, but from what i am seeing they just really arnt that expensive to buy and install.  anyway, i cant wait to hear how your project is going.

[MountainDon]

....only need a electric permit.  i think, correct me if im wrong, that would only apply if i were grid-tied.

Don't assume that if you are off grid you do not need a permit for electrical. For our location the county inspector still wanted to see all the requirements for inside the building to comply with code. Partly that is a safety issue. Partly is is the fee. Partly it may be because someday the grid may be connected to (they mentioned that). Partly it may be because that's the way it's always done. Even the low voltage parts have sections in the NEC.

[AdironDoc]

Quite right. I'm off grid too and when I pressed the codes department on the issue of low voltage, I was told the same. I asked if the standard wiring rule was a "suggestion or requirement", to which the code officer replied, "a word to the wise, it won't cost you much to bring it to code". Understood. Now, good luck finding a way through the 3 miles of woods to inspect it. 

....only need a electric permit.  i think, correct me if im wrong, that would only apply if i were grid-tied.

Don't assume that if you are off grid you do not need a permit for electrical. For our location the county inspector still wanted to see all the requirements for inside the building to comply with code. Partly that is a safety issue. Partly is is the fee. Partly it may be because someday the grid may be connected to (they mentioned that). Partly it may be because that's the way it's always done. Even the low voltage parts have sections in the NEC.

[altaoaks]

thanks for the additional info adriondoc, i appreciate knowing what you have done, and yes, as you say it helps to know the paths others have walked, as those steps are much easier to follow.  and i really aggree with the deal about DIY, i had already noticed i could get a decent turbine for between $900 and $1200.  and that is really fantastic!  sounds much better than micky-rigged, and wow! thats a lot of difference in watts delivered, day and night difference.

i guess being off grid wont save me with the electric permit!  real bummer!  the thing im tossing around is and that power is extreemly close to my building site.  i havent pulled out the tape measure, but i would guess only around 100'.  thats a cheap hook-up. 

so i was talking to one of my customers today.  of course their situation is very different from mine.  they have a 2800 sq ft, 2 story home.  last month they had solar installed.  today pacific gas & electric came over and installed their new meter--one that will sell back the extra to the grid.  they have 16 solar panels, i figure most times they will be making a significent excess of electricity.  its pretty smart to have your system working for you.  i had heard that in calif. you wouldnt get paidfor the excess.  but apparently you do, or maybe it depends on where you are.

as much as i dont like dealing with the local power company, maybe i should suck it up and go grid-tied up there.  there sure are alot of decisions to make when you buy land with the intentions of building a cabin!

and thank you to you and mountain don for pointing out that getting around the permit  wont be as easy as i was thinking.  they dont have to go thorugh any woods to get to my building site, just drive on up when the weather is good.  i guess i should have spent more time on the "buying land"section.
















, and next to impossible.  unfortunatly
 

[glenn kangiser]

In California the last I knew and still think it is the policy, the rules were of course written to favor the power company.  They only have to pay you avoided costs which is about 2 cents per kwh.  You in the meantime will supply them with a product they can sell for a profit.  It does not pay here to provide them with excess power.   Banking and using up to the amount you use annually could be good.

[MountainDon]

There were some changes made by the CA legislature last year. I'd check with the power company to see just what the current options are. I know PG&E at least allows one's own generation to be applied equally against any power that the customer buys from them. At the end of a year there is a settlement; I just don't know what the changes are.

Even here in NM where the company that supplies us in the suburbs pays actual cash for surplus (at a rate higher than the base rate) the power company we would be connected to in the mountains has no buy back plan at all. So it can vary.

[altaoaks]

that sure makes it tough for people to make plans, too bad there isnt some uniform guidelines that power companies would have to follow.  but at the same time, that would create more bureaucratic bs, so maybe not.  in a perfect world everyone would just do the right thing!  nice dream...

im going to see my customer next friday, and i want some 411 from her.  by the way, she also has a cabin at lake tahoe, but not the placer county side, shes closer to stateline (where calif and nevada borders meet).  i hope new fair guidelines were legislated, but you know how likely that is.

mountaindon, thats too bad the power co by you doesnt participate.  are they a small local co?  by the way, how are taxes, and land prices your way.  my brother is in st. petersburg, fl.  he wants out of there by summer and has plans for that area outside of santa fe, a few acres, a storage container underground for emergency supplies,....  he misses NM alot, we all do.  and the fl humidity is killing him.

[MountainDon]

mountaindon, thats too bad the power co by you doesnt participate.  are they a small local co? 

Yep. Jemez Mtn Co-Op

  by the way, how are taxes, and land prices your way. 

We just paid the taxes for the year: mtn prop; $104     city home; $1300

Land: we paid $19K an acre in the mtns. Depending on how close to Santa Fe it could be more. Or not.  Santa Fe itself is nuts!???
http://www.jemezproperties.com/

[AdironDoc]

Wow.. for unimproved (but subdivided) forest, I pay $600 per 5 acre lot. I own 35 acres. Dems' the breaks..