Author Topic: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update  (Read 2199087 times)

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Offline stadia

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1350 on: July 28, 2009, 08:20:34 PM »
Did you use Olhers flooring recomendation?

Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1351 on: July 29, 2009, 06:28:40 PM »
Hi stadia.  w*

Mike had a few recommendations.  One was earth carpet flooring and- carpet over tamped earth with a plastic vapor barrier.  I have not gone as far as to do a good job with that but I have one section that way down below.  It is easy and feels good as he states.

We have several soil cement floors with sealer but they are rather easily damaged and Sassy is kind of leaning more toward the India light duty concrete plunger pier floor as her favorite.  It is like stucco reinforced with jute fabric and holds up well to traffic, furniture and cleaning.  We have a few and will likely seal them with polyurethane later.

The cob floor with a few layers of linseed oil is more durable than the soil cement floors that include portland cement.  It arrests shrinkage at the soft brick stage rather than letting it go to the claystone stage of cob.
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Offline stadia

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1352 on: July 31, 2009, 05:50:20 PM »
do you feel any regret at not having done some kind of tradtional floor? I'm getting ready to start my psp after 6 years of procrastination,and the floor was the big thing i wondered about.

Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1353 on: July 31, 2009, 06:58:37 PM »
No regrets exactly as I wanted to experiment with all types of alternative floors.

My wife wants to get more toward dust free and more cleanable floors.  In that case the soil cement floors are about the worst as damage to the sealer causes an area that can make dust.  We did the polyurethane and paper over the floor in the kitchen, and that did yeild a dust free cleanable floor over the soil/cement floor. These floors will pretty well stop you from breaking dishes.  They give just enough to keep from breaking glass.

I am sure the earth carpet floor with a plastic vapor barrier would be good as Mike said it is.  I would line the floor edges with 2x wood to fasten the carpet to at the edges.

We are happy with the India light duty cement (jute/stucco) floor as it is both strong and durable, as well as cleanable and colors can be added.  It uses about 1/4 of the materials a concrete slab floor uses so makes sense economically and environmentally.

What floor are you thinking of doing?

The cob floor is pretty forgiving and durable.  With the sealer it is cleanable but dark so harder to keep clean in a dusty area
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Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1354 on: August 01, 2009, 05:19:50 AM »
Unmarked chopper at 11 o'clock.

Caught this flying over my house.  He slowed when he passed - may have spotted me... [waiting]
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Offline stadia

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1355 on: August 01, 2009, 08:45:55 AM »
I was thinking i might try rhino lining over compacted clay and imbeded plastic mesh if you can believe that.

Offline rick91351

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1356 on: August 01, 2009, 09:24:52 AM »
Lets see now floors then

Unmarked chopper at 11 o'clock.

Caught this flying over my house.  He slowed when he passed - may have spotted me... [waiting]


Wow Glenn you stole your own thread there.  Only a pro can do it that smooth!!!  I look up to you man!!!   :)
lol
Rick   c*

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Offline Don_P

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1357 on: August 01, 2009, 10:39:35 AM »
It kinda looks like he got it to lock up  :D

If a piece of equipment locks or stalls or shuts down in a high lift I've normally hit one of the limits, Sometimes you can open the door and umm adjust them a little bit  d*. Those situations can be hairy, the darn thing stops right when I need to be able to do something to get outta the mess I shouldn't have been in to begin with. We did have a rental place forget where they left the Lull for almost 2 months on one job. I parked it out by the road for them every night. Gave em a few hundred for the hours but it was one sweet deal, woulda been a couple of thousand for the time.

Glenn, you better steal this thing back  :)

Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1358 on: August 01, 2009, 10:10:30 PM »
d*

I couldn't help it.  I'm a drifter..... git along, little doggies, git along.

I am good, aren't I.  rofl

Stadia, Rhino lining would be a new one to me but if you do, let us know how it turns out.

Guys, opinion from a pro says CIA or NSA.  

DEA is here a lot but I don't know if they are unmarked.  I just didn't care for the stall tactics when I was out there shooting pictures.... no place for a Chinook here though.  Not a 60' clear spot for even one of the rotors...  

They will have to come down a rope ladder and drag me away screaming and kicking.... [waiting]
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1359 on: August 23, 2009, 03:50:18 PM »
Heavy lifting today as I moved the machine tools around in an attempt to reorganize the shop.  Now maybe I can get something done around there.

I am still working on the apartment complex in Fresno so not a lot of time to keep after the place but I do something once in a while.

Here is a pix of one of the Apartment Gargoyles I put up on Friday - about 35 feet up to the rooftop.




"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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Offline Bishopknight

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1360 on: August 26, 2009, 04:51:15 PM »
You know you've made the big times when you get a transport helicopter doing a fly over c*

Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1361 on: August 28, 2009, 05:07:10 PM »
It's quite a game up here trying to guess what they are doing.  Unmarked transport chopper - Areas off limits to even Federal employees.... hmm

One of those things that makes you go HMMmmmmm
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Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1362 on: September 05, 2009, 10:07:55 AM »
I had a short break from work this week so got another section of the light duty India plunger pier concrete floor done.  The new one is the wetter looking concrete at the bottom side of the picture.  The one the chairs are on, I did a few months ago.  This is in the great room area under the sun scoop.



The concrete is about the same as stucco with pier holes pounded down to the natural earth with the end of a digging bar and filled with grout.  Jute matting is used for the reinforcement instead of steel.  I have mentioned this in other places on the forum.  We are leaning toward it more as it can go over non-compacted soil and is still a strong durable floor.

Sassy told me I must mention that the chairs were just sitting down in a dusty unfinished storage area for months and we just got them out to get a look with furniture there. d*  Besides - they were in my way for continuing on... [waiting]

 It is environmentally friendly as it is only about 1/2 inch thick on the average, minimizing use of materials.

"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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Offline Dandlite

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1363 on: September 10, 2009, 08:18:27 AM »
Hi Glenn...buddy...pal...gumba...!
just figuring a little butter up is always a good ting before ya go completely OT...
but u the guy i think for this...and also asked Red cause he's a creative wiz also...

here's the off the wall idea....a dumb-waiter kinda people mover...
problem...stairs or ladders in small buildings...older people (like me) that don't wanna climb them into a loft or second floor...
plus the floor space they use up...now i thought about the rocks ya drilled holes in...
i figure ya build a bird cage kinda thing...3 x 3...4 x 4 platform...get on...push rock off it on a chain and pulley system...and presto ya on the second floor...
problem then becomes how ya get back down...
problem-2 if you're on the bottom how to raise it up outta the way...
this should be simple stuff for someone who can put up a 80 foot tower by himself...

buzz words are cables...chain hoists...maybe battery-electric cable hoist...sand-bag system...cheap way to balance the weight...
water..pump it in and out of a counter weight...
on the crazy science side if ya could create a weightless chamber on the bird cage then only a little difference in weight
would be required to move it up and down...

if anyone ever did any old house-window resto stuff u would probably have come across windows that had weights-chains in the side frames...
same kinda theory...the weights balanced the weight of the window somewhat making them easier to move up and down...
ok...this could be big Glenn...we could kit it and sell gazillions...buy corporate jets and stuff...go bankrupt..get bailouts...! Dan...
Without wind power the vikings don't find America...!

Offline Sassy

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1364 on: September 10, 2009, 09:45:24 AM »
Glenn's at work right now - how 'bout a crank?  If you set the ratios right, you could make it really easy to crank up or down   ???
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Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1365 on: September 10, 2009, 08:09:17 PM »
Hey, Dan.  There are elevators for houses but they want tons of money for the Government approved and inspected, lawyer proofed, idiot proofed, anti-crashing, safety gizmo-ed models.

"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1366 on: September 22, 2009, 05:17:48 PM »
We ordered our PV panel add on a few days ago and I had Sassy order an extra BZ controller, since I have been adding the panels in modules of 500 watts each - plus or minus a few depending on what the bargain is on.  $1.98 per watt this time- getting better.  :)

In this way when I have a failed controller, as I do now, I can send it in for repair and put the spare in.  The BZ MPPT 500 is an easy way to have MPPT in small modules.  Each one takes care of its own group of panels so they don't have to be the same as other groups of panels to benefit to the maximum from the MPPT.

The best deal I have found is here in California - bad thing is that means I have to pay sales tax on it. d*

http://www.discountpv.com/charge_controllers/mppt500.htm

The one I ordered from the above link a few days ago arrived today.
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Offline Mike 870

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1367 on: September 23, 2009, 07:04:42 AM »
Glen,

Did you buy the sun 130s?  If not ignore the next set of questions.  I'll be very interested in hearing a review.  Is there anything wacky about them like a positive ground?  17.8 volt VMP essentially means they are 12 volt panels?  I am thinking of buying some of these for a rainy day.

Offline Bishopknight

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1368 on: September 23, 2009, 01:24:17 PM »
Looking good Glenn   ;D A little dust adds character :)

Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1369 on: September 23, 2009, 07:30:32 PM »
Thanks, BK. :)

Mike, yes - I ordered the Sun 130's.  Looks like they added a note about UPS considering the ones I bought oversized.

They were newly added to the site.  

They are 12 volt panels or could be but two in series makes them 24v panels and since the BZ will take up to 99.9 volts open circuit voltage I can put 4 of them in series and not exceed the voc by being 87.2 if I did the math correctly.  This will let me use small wiring from the roof to the regulator with low losses.  The BZ will run the panels at the maximum power point and convert it down to 24 volts nominal for my system.

The panels were shipped - I will update you on them, but I did not see anything weird advertised on them.  

I could also run them at 35.6 vmp with 2 in series then parallel them with no problem - the BZ would take care of them.  

I plan on setting my system up to equalize with my welder with each set of batteries so there is no need for a fancier controller.

There is not another controller that I can find by others in the 500 watt MPPT range, so I decided to standardize on the BZ.  I have a 45 amp  PWM Trace also but they work together fine as they are all independent.  

My wind generator is also hooked to the system - together on the same batteries but all work independent of each other.

I see the BZ claims to be a desulfator also due to the PWM I guess so that is likely why I still have 2004 batteries online and functioning.  Yes - they heed some care but they are working.
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Offline Mike 870

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1370 on: September 24, 2009, 04:47:50 AM »
That is interesting stuff especially on the desulfator.  There is a guy who writes in Home Power Magazine who swears by them too. 

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1371 on: September 24, 2009, 07:40:59 AM »
I gave serious consideration to the BZ 500 MPPT charge controller. It looks like a good unit. However, for my installation it's limit of 100 VDC input meant I could not use it with the panel and wire configuration I wanted. I would have required to use larger wire and much of the savings in the cost of the CC would have disappeared into the wire cost.

I was curious about those Sun130 PV panels and how they got the price so low, so did some research. First, I could not find them on the discountpv website, maybe they sold out already?

Full data sheets were difficult to find, and I found two different sets of basic specs, both being called Sun-130. One gave the Voc as 21.8 and another as 24.1 The 21.8 Voc panel is larger and on sunelec's website they are referred to as oversize.

http://sunelec.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=357
http://sunelec.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=345

One concern popped into my head when Glenn mentioned coupling into a series string of four panels. The combined series Voc of 87.2 is correct. However, that does not take into account the increased voltage that occurs at low temperatures. Panels are spec'd out at a standard temperature of 25 degrees C measured at the cell. As the temperature goes up the output voltage will fall. As temperatures fall the output voltage will rise. Now Glenn's CA location probably doesn't get as cold as my NM mountains but it can be chilly in the early AM I imagine.

Usually a multiplier of 1.25 should be applied to the Voc value to determine the highest likely open circuit voltage that could occur. Take that 87.2 Voc figure. I ran the numbers or the 21.8 Voc panel through the Outback string sizer tool and it would seem that at zero degrees C (32 F) that could rise to at least 97 V which is really too close for comfort. At zero degrees F  (-17 C) that Voc could reach 105 V. That = toast.

Just for the record and enlightenment of viewers of this thread, those high Voc's occur on cold mornings when the panels get the early morning sunlight. It may only peak briefly, but it could be enough to zap the charge controller.


One other thing I found on one web page would indicate the unadvisability of connecting more than two of these panels in series. The maximum system voltage is given as 70 V. This was or the 24.1 Voc panels, and therefore may not apply to the 21.8 Voc panels. I found that on this website where a copy of the spec sheet is listed.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/SUN-130,-130-Watt-Solar-Panel_W0QQitemZ250484550370QQcmdZViewItem

Most panels are rated 600 V. That means that connecting four of the 21.8 Voc panels in series would surpass the manufacturers rating even at the Vmp value of 17.8 V. So if the system maximum for the 21.8 Voc panels is the same 70 V then I would keep these panels limited to a series of two.


« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 10:52:07 AM by MountainDon »
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1372 on: September 24, 2009, 07:53:08 AM »
Is there anything wacky about them like a positive ground?


I found nothing about pos or neg ground on the sunelec web info. I did come across one reference to positive ground on another forum, but it was posed as a question similar to yours. Until it is known whether or not these panels have a positive ground all we can do is speculate.

BTW, positive grounded equipment is commonplace in the telecom industry. A few years back there were some folks selling some PV panels that were cheap and were positive ground. They can be difficult to incorporate safely into an off grid system. For a grid tie only system, with no batteries, apparently the neg or pos ground thing is not important. I don't know why, but that is what I've read.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 08:40:22 AM by MountainDon »
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

Offline Mike 870

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1373 on: September 24, 2009, 08:40:53 AM »


Most panels are rated 600 V. That means that connecting four of the 21.8 Voc panels in series would surpass the manufacturers rating even at the Vmp value of 17.8 V. So if the system maximum for the 21.8 Voc panels is the same 70 V then I would keep these panels limited to a series of two.



You lost me here, did you mean 60 V ? I wonder if that limit is based on small wire size internal to the panel?

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Glenn's Underground Cabin Update
« Reply #1374 on: September 24, 2009, 08:52:24 AM »
No, the real figure is 600 volts. My Sharp panels for example are rated to 600 V, just like the house wiring is rated. Those come from UL and the NEC generally requires everything to be UL tested/approved. In a grid tie system it is not uncommon to have panels wired together into a series array that produces 250 - 400+ volts. In a big system that cuts down on the amps and that lowers component and wiring costs.

So yes, I would assume that the internal panel connections are skimpy, or the wire insulation is not up to higher voltages. I also noted that these are not NEC approved panels, probably due to the voltage limit on the internal wiring. I know that is of no concern in this application. I simply wanted to bring the points forward as something that should be considered by others contemplating alternate energy sources. I could easily see someone not familiar with electricity plugging several of these together and running into problems.

Another case that illustrates the validity of codes and the reasons they should be followed.



I should probably add something to the Off Grid topic.
Later.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 11:03:28 AM by MountainDon »
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

 

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