Anyone know about septic systems?

[Gem]

Im new to this and a bit overwhelmed by the thought of putting in a 20-30,000 septic system. We had a test done and it was determined that we should have a pressurized system. Boo. We are considering looking at the maps to see if we might want to test another area, but for now, with 40 rock composition on top of a hill it looks like we are going to be stuck with this option.

I thought I would just put a line out there to see if anyone has encountered this problem, or if there is an alternative that I might not be aware of. We just got power and water a few weeks ago, which is so exciting, and this is the next big challenge before we can really plan to start breaking ground. Any thoughts???

[glenn kangiser]

There may be options but depends on where you are at and what they allow.  Harry51 was able to build his own engineered system and get away with it here with our county.  I would suggest at least asking about options. 

[boltpost]

I have an option for an $11,000 mound system on my beach property.  However I can reduce that to $5000 by buying the tanks & parts and installing the system myself,  and in Grays Harbor County WA I have my septic designer "oversee" my install, check my work, casually supervise the job.   Health department then will check my work and sign off....You might check you county to see if this is offered. 

note: article may be of interest to you

http://www.infiltratorsystems.com/pdfs/Journal_of%20LightContruc_0304.pdf

good luck

[flyingvan]

  There are many options, but each county is different and I'd talk to them about what innovations others in your soil area have used....Here's a few things though---a concrete tank is way superior to a fiberglass tank.  Inflitrators are superior to perforated pipe and you don't have to backfill with expensive gravel. 
  Sometimes, a good option to an anaerobic pressure system is a passive flow aerobic system (most systems are anaerobic passive flow systems).  The maintenance required to keep the air pump working and the electricity needed is far less than what it takes to kep a presure system going from what I've heard. http://www.aerobic-septic-system.com/
   You can also ask if seepage pits are an option.

[duncanshannon]

Deff. gotta check with your local county.

[rick91351]

Can you please explain where you are.  Type of soil, and how big is your property.

I am a little confused on your statement 

We are considering looking at the maps to see if we might want to test another area, but for now, with 40 rock composition on top of a hill it looks like we are going to be stuck with this option.

I thought I would just put a line out there to see if anyone has encountered this problem, or if there is an alternative that I might not be aware of. We just got power and water a few weeks ago, which is so exciting, and this is the next big challenge before we can really plan to start breaking ground. Any thoughts???

I have put in several systems and you have lost me with the 40 rock composition.  Is that when you have to much rock where the drain field is going to go?  Sorry I have never ran into that terminology.  What we did here in this location because of that.  We dug a trench 90 feet long and as deep as we could with a Case Extendahoe and finally got down to some sand base.  Enough to make the inspector to say okay.  Then we started bringing in most likely 10 truck loads of sand and back filled with that.  Set the infusers and the State Central District Health gave us the final.  We back filled.  It is part of our pasture now here in the valley.  You don't would not even know where it is at. 

The other thing I really suggest for people that might read this.  Before you plan where to set the dwelling, settle where in the heck can you put the waste first!  From there if you have to drill a well that must be measured off and away from the septic site.   Then set the house and then the power.
 
Great case in point is at our ranch where we end up building our house / cabin / dwelling is a long way away from where we wanted it originally.  We dug most likely 10 or 15 perk holes some we filled right back in because we hit water and lot of it.  Some we left open only to come back the next day and fill in because of water.  We did leave some for about a week and filled them in because of water.  One or two we thought might pass the test and the inspector gave us thumbs down we filled them in.  We ended up building a shop in that location.  House area is now about 500 ft from where we wanted.  Now we look back it was a real blessing in disguise.  But realistically the septic system is so important placed properly.           

[flyingvan]

  Boy I can second that---about do the septic first and place the house second.  Where I'm building now was considered 'unbuildable' because of the lack of room for a septic.  It perked well, I had to move a driveway and a water main and put the required parking in the extreme rear ---with all that I had a 20x20 spot to build that could only go in one particular spot., But, fabulous view, shoestring budget, worth the hassle.  I found the lady at the county's onsite wastewater dept.  that was really into challenges, and she worked with me to get it done.  (The thank-you letter I wrote on her behalf made its way to my building inspector which was good)

[waggin]

I believe I have the "infiltrator" style system, but with gravity flow (non-pressurized.)  It was done in 1998, and from what I've heard, I am fortunate to have been able to get away with it in my location.  It was working properly a little over a year ago when I had it inspected, and I hope it continues to do so for a long time!

[rick91351]

I believe I have the "infiltrator" style system, but with gravity flow (non-pressurized.)  It was done in 1998, and from what I've heard, I am fortunate to have been able to get away with it in my location.  It was working properly a little over a year ago when I had it inspected, and I hope it continues to do so for a long time!

Most likely it will.  The one we put in here that is in the pasture, and because it is in the Boise Valley.  Which is in the Snake River Plain which is in desert of Idaho.  As all farm ground here it is irrigated.  Once week in the summer time we flood irrigate right over the drain field.  For well over a year we had another family living here with us.  That was two more adults and three little ones plus Ellen and I.  So that is a lot of water and the then six year old drain field just worked as advertised.

One thing I would suggest is have your septic tank pumped every other year whether it needs it or not.  IE don't wait for septic trouble.  From what read and been told by the septic gurus around here that is key to a long and happy drain field life.   There is some debate over septic enzymes from what I see.  I have been told ya and nay.  I have been told waste of money, I have been told good old yeast works as good or better.  I have even been told that there is enough in human waste to keep the system running very well all by itself.       

[flyingvan]

I read everything I could find on enzyme treatments----they do worse than nothing, they actually can harm systems.  Don't do it!  Like you hinted, all the necessary microbes are right there in human waste.  One thing that the septic microbes love, according to a few experts, is an occasional rise in Ph----if you're leaving for awhile just flush the box of baking soda that was in the fridge (Of course open a new box for the fridge for the time you're gone)

[Bob S.]

I am no expert (a drip under pressure) on septic systems but have read that you can get all the enzymes you need by flushing yogert into them once in awhile.

[Squirl]

I designed my own system.  My soil failed the deep hole test.  I designed a greywater/composting system. A septic engineer and my building inspector (also an engineer) signed off on it.  I was able to design my own by learning the septic code for my state. http://www.health.ny.gov/regulations/nycrr/title_10/part_75/appendix_75-a.htm
With a location maybe someone can help you more directly.

From all the quotes from the septic engineer and plumber that came out for my percolation test, the highest priced system was a "dosed" peat moss system at $25k and this is NY ($). Your price seems a little high. 

My understanding is pressurized systems can be for when the normal leach field is up hill from the building location or if an alternative design with dosing is needed.  There over a dozen different alternative designs with different price points (raised bed, sand mound, irrigation, peat mound, and many more).

On a property the first thing that is usually placed is the septic, then the house, then the well.  This is because the septic is the hardest and most expensive to place. The well is more of a question of depth than difficulty and is cheaper than an alternative septic system.  All have set back requirements from the septic system.

I am kind of in the same boat as rick.  I am not familiar with the terminology you posted about your test or problems. 

[SouthernTier]

Squil:  I've read the NY appendix 75A pretty closely.  Real worried about whether I will be able to put in a gravity system or not.  Being in the western Southern Tier, we have plenty of glacial till that isn't very permeable.  When I went to the health department to get my privy permit (yeah, they allow them her, but I think most people never bother to get the permit), I chatted with the guy there about perc tests but he said something to the effect as to why I thought my land would perc.  Not a good sign.

So my question is, in your research, have you seen anything that says NY may be amenable to the infiltrator systems referenced above?  Seems like a good solution for slow percing soil.  There was nothing in appendix 75a about them.

[Squirl]

Yes, I have them for my grey water.   Impermeable soil is impermeable soil though.  I had 18" of good soil, then a layer of hard clay.  You can see my pictures of how well it drains (not at all).  Infiltrators  are in the NY code.

Open-bottom gravel less chambers. Absorption area designs may use a 25% reduction in the total absorption trench length listed in Table 4A or as calculated from Table 4B when the product can demonstrate the following features:

I am in central NY.  Most of the areas near water flows have good soils near rivers, streams, and lakes.  Areas high in the mountains generally don't pass the deep hole test.  You can see the difference.  Speedfunk and drainl are about 5 miles away and they have nice rocky sandy soil.  My soil drains well enough in the first 18" so technically it will pass the soil percolation part of the test, but the soil inspection part

At least one test hole at least six feet deep shall be dug within or immediately adjacent to the proposed leaching area to insure that uniform soil and site conditions prevail.

I had the choice to walk away from the deal, pay $20-25k for an alternative design or go composting/greywater with a price concession from the seller.

In NY luckily as long as a licensed engineer signs off, a building department will almost definitely accept it.  So if you don't like what one engineer says, you can hire another.  Low drainage and no drainage are different, if you are on the border line of the percolation rate, maybe you can convince an engineer to sign off with infiltrators.  If you are low permeability you will probably want to use them anyway.

I had this situation because in NY even a grey water system has to be designed to the same exact specifications as a full septic system, except with less water flow sizing.  The engineer I worked with and the inspector (also an engineer) signed off on an infiltrator greywater disposal even though I had 18" of soil.  They wouldn't sign off on it for the black water because it was too high of a chance that blackwater could get to the surface.

Also in perusing the specs for the health code, you can see the different parameters  of alternative designs you can go with depending upon soil type.
Much of the cost of the alternative designed septic system is in diesel ($$$).  Trucking in hundreds of tons of sand is expensive.

[SouthernTier]

Thanks Squirl.  I work for an engineering firm, and actually am an engineer, but my training is in Chemical Engineering and I don't have a PE (lots of ChemE's don't get them, but I wish I did, too old for that now).  I could probably get a civil here at work to review and stamp some plans.

I actually mainly do environmental cleanup engineering work so I work with soils all the time, and am no stranger to soil maps and looking at soil logs, and understanding what types of soils get deposited and how this affects flow (I do this every day for determinining where groundwater contamination migrates). 

My gut feeling is the part of the parcel where the drain field would go would just barely pass a perc test despite the county Health Department guy's skepticism.  Looking at appendix 75a, for just a cabin - smallest structure in the tables, I think labeled as 2-bedroom or something, I think I could get away with an inch-per-hour perc rate if I put in the maximum length feet of drain (250 feet if I recall correctly, I have plenty of space).  It's just a lot of sand or gravel to truck in to bed the drain pipes.  And I have indeed done my planning in the right order (septic location, then cabin location), and the ideal septic location is the opposite-from-ideal for getting lots of materials in.  Going with the infiltrators may help in the amount of loads of sand or gravel that would have to get dragged all the way over to that corner of the property (not accessible to trucks; but backhoes can go anywhere).

[flyingvan]

  I hope you don't mind---Since everyone's talking about infiltrators I thought I'd insert pics from my system



  Here they are all stacked up.  I paid about $13 each for them.  They are supposed to give 3 times the absorptive area as perforated pipe per foot.  SD County allows them but you have to provide the same linear feet as the perforated pipe.  I don't have a picture of the ends that just snap in place, with knock-outs for piping if you're tying into the ends---like if you encounter an unmoveable boulder---you stop the course, cap it, pipe past the obstacle, and start the course again.



  I had a helper hold the laser level pole.  Each course has to go in level.  Just dig slightly deep so you can wiggle the section up onto the clods that invariably fall into your trench!

   

  This shows how you link each course together.  2 1/2" pipe (ABS or PVC) comes out the top, anywhere in the course, bridging down to the next course.  When the first course saturates over it goes to the next one.

 

   Here's the whole system....for a one bedroom cabin!  It's a south facing slope, too.  I don't think I'll ever have a problem with this field.

   

    Whatever it takes, if at all possible, go with a concrete tank.  Fiberglass tanks can crack, float out of the ground, etc.  Getting this in was a pain and required a crane.  When I'm 75 years old I don't want to hassle with a tank failure

[Squirl]

You seem to know more than enough about the field you should be fine.  The nice part is that infiltrators are in the code and you get a reduction in field size.  I would have needed 2 loads of gravel at $300 a load. It would have cost just a little less than a smaller infiltrator system.  The fact that they are less labor to install and being close in price would usually do it for me.  I was given a big cautionary note with them, the biggest mistake is people don't run the perforated pipe through to the end.  They put the pipe up to the front and all the water just dumps in the front of them.

When I went through the process last year I found out it used to be up to the soil and water and the health department to sign off.  Since they instituted a new law that the design must get a PE stamp, they have delegated to process to the engineer and the building department.  It is a state law so it shouldn't be too different between counties.

Gem, I hope some of this discussion also helpful.  As you can see why it can be a very location specific answer.

[SouthernTier]

When I went through the process last year I found out it used to be up to the soil and water and the health department to sign off.  Since they instituted a new law that the design must get a PE stamp, they have delegated to process to the engineer and the building department.  It is a state law so it shouldn't be too different between counties.

That's some interesting news (to me at least).  It was at least 4 or more years ago that I talked to the health department, before I put in my privy.  If you click on my project topic link and look at the aerial map, you see there is a flag lot behind me.  The guy there was getting ready to put in a cabin, so the health department guy had been out there to look at it recently.

Sounds like it is not up to him any more to decide what goes or not.  As a (non-PE) engineer, I wouldn't try to put something in that wasn't going to meet code.  I'm one of the type to think most of what's in there is for a good purpose.  So I wouldn't be looking to design (and have someone review and stamp) something that wasn't right.  But it is good to know that if I believe it will work, and the PE agrees, someone with some preconceived notions won't be in the position to tell me to put in a $$$ sand filter.

[Squirl]

Interesting.  Does your counties building department call in the health department for a septic permit?  The whole process involves a PE and the building department here.  If the PE signs off the building inspector almost always signs off.  When they both sign off, you get the permit and they just tell the county health department, and nobody at the health department questions it.  I was worried about the same thing, because a stickler might argue with their interpretations of the grey water part of the code and soil levels. 

When I called the county for the perc test they didn't bother telling me the change in the law.  They never updated the septic permit form. I went to schedule it with the county then called the building inspector about the septic permit procedure.  He said, "why would you call the county?"  Their perc tests no longer held any qualifications, only a PE that was designing the system did.  The PE is not required to accept the county's perc test and usually doesn't (hey, the engineer can make extra money can't he).

[rick91351]

Squil:  I've read the NY appendix 75A pretty closely.  Real worried about whether I will be able to put in a gravity system or not.  Being in the western Southern Tier, we have plenty of glacial till that isn't very permeable.  When I went to the health department to get my privy permit (yeah, they allow them her, but I think most people never bother to get the permit), I chatted with the guy there about perc tests but he said something to the effect as to why I thought my land would perc.  Not a good sign.

So my question is, in your research, have you seen anything that says NY may be amenable to the infiltrator systems referenced above?  Seems like a good solution for slow percing soil.  There was nothing in appendix 75a about them.

I have read and see in the news where may states and local across the nation are disallowing any mechanical means to move sewage sludge, and waste water even within a personal system.  Theory and bases is the cost of up keep in days economy is not a user friendly thing.  You might afford a pumps and accouterments  today but for a municipality or a person to continue such in the future is greatly debatable.