Glenn's Underground Cabin Update

[glenn-k]

Here is looking at the uphill patio through the kitchen glass- the kitchen floor is 10'6" below ground level.  The stairs to the right go up to top ground level.  Sunlight shines clear to the bottom of the uphill patio in the summer.  Some bottom greenhouse glass is removed in the summer to allow heat to blow out above the cabin.



Straight through the french doors behind the kitchen stove above is the bridge that goes to the bedroom.  Kitchen/study/apt are on the 4'6" level -bedroom at 8' level -bridge is split level with steps in center to higher level and down to the 0'0" level of the Great Room.

[whitewolf]

Do the doors only go up door height and then it is open to the patio above them?  

Sharon

[glenn-k]

The doors and french doors are normal 6'8 doors.  There is glass above the doors so you can still see the logs and outside of the cabin to the light in the uphill patio.  The entire interior walls around the kitchen that are not wood have glass.  Separates and keeps the room separate from the center section which at this time is still open to the uphill patio and south to the unfinished lower entrance.  The new lower entrance is at 16 feet below upper ground level but pokes out of the ground on the south.  The edge of the uphill patio is 61 feet north of the stucco paper wall around the 3rd bathroom - I will backfill and boulder landscape around it to make it disappear back into the mountain.  I am using a layer of normal stucco for strength- think ferro-cement-- then earth plaster over that on the stucco paper.

[glenn-k]

Hi Glenn,

No problem, I promise to ask a lot of questions..

I have been examining your floor plan and your pics but still can't get the "overall" pic in my head.  Any way you can update your floor plan with there the windows are and where the ups/downs to levels are?  maybe some #'s to match your pics ("you are here" sort of thing)? Will you be taking pics of the full front, sides, and back so we get a better idea of your home?  

I will see what I can do.  I was thinking of small videos possibly later.

Is your greenhouse a "building"?  I think I read in the $50 book that you can put a "roof" over the uphill patio to create a greenhouse. which is better in a winter like MN?  I'm thinking building at the top of the patio since I will need all the winter sunlight I can get.  If your's is a building, doesn't it block a lot of light for the uphill patio?  The one thing I realy want in my house is a year round greenhouse (from the Earthship idea) that I can use to recycle gray water, so I am thinking I may end up with a house that is a "first thought" design with the uphill patio and the roof sloped to the sides like Mike suggests.  Unless you can think of another way to recycle the gray water "up' to the uphill greenhouse?

I haven't been using my greywater except to water trees downhill.  It could be pumped up to some filtration pond etc then re-used - in Minn. that would be ice in the winter though.

Like I mentioned in my first post, I like the earthship idea but NOT the tire pounding!!  When I realy apply reality instead of desire, I just think that in MN even the vertical glass (which is what I figure I will need to get the winter sun inside) will loose more heat than it will gain.  Since I would still have to heat the ES, it makes Mike's ideas more realistic to MN.  

Mike has had some success withhis greenhouse in Northern ID.  Brrrrrrr cold there.
Mikes Greenhouse
More here  http://www.undergroundhousing.com/structures6.html

Mike's  hillside earth-sheltered greenhouse before planting. This greenhouse has taken tomatoes into the second week of December repeatedly. It is heated only by the sun and earth. It has taken hardies like kale clear through the winter.

Also, I see that you have a curved wall of glass for your conversation pit, nice.  But, can you curve the walls of the house itself if you don't want the "box" house?  Can the front wall (uphill patio side) be of cob or would there be problems?  Maybe strawbale with cob inside/outside ?

Strawbales could deteriorate if not kept completely dry - plastic could help- cob under the roof could be shaped as desired- Board walls are faster.  Seems the hillside in Minn. would be best - lets the water drain away.

Well, are you tired of my questions yet.....LOL  

I'll yell uncle when I've had enough.

Thank you again,
Sharon

PS...thanks for the quick response, but doesn't that mean your not getting your work done....LOL  (i'm not either....my day off from work)

[tjm73]

Boy I would love to tour your house.  It's so damn interesting.

Do you have a single page where we could view all your pics in one place?  Like a homepage for your home?

[whitewolf]

The address to Glenn's web page is: http://members.sti.net/glennk/index.htm

The address to all his pohots in one place is: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/glennkangiser/detail?.dir=/8ac1&.dnm=3371.jpg&.src=ph&.tok=phT.FdCB6IwyWCaf

Sharon

[glenn-k]

Thanks, Sharon.

Sorry my website isn't better - I get lazy and send everyone here but I wanted the little website to have a place to host some little videos when I do them and later some family history.

I have since found a video host on the web too.

http://vimeo.com/
Welcome to Vimeo!  Video hosting.

If in the area let me know and I'll give you the royal tour, tjm73, or anyone else with the exception of those listed on my No Trespassing sign who do not come unofficially as friends.  All rights reserved-GK

[whitewolf]

Glenn,

I didn't see my name on the no tresspassing sign...LOL..so I would also love to see your place.

Where are you located and by what major city to fly into?  If I plan it right mabye we could come this late winter or early spring.

I printed out a copy of your floor plan and then went through all the pic and I could find most of where the pics are taken...I think!  The bedroom is a little confusing, but if the uphill patio faes East I think I may have it. (am I correct?)

On your floor plan, the kitchen is to the left of the study.  In the pics, it show windows on adjacent walls (like a corner) Did the kitchen go all the way to the right side (into the study area)?  Sorry, slightly confused with that room.

Sharon

[glenn-k]

Welcome, Sharon - your name is not on the list.

We are just west of Yosemite National Park.  Fresno, 75 miles, Sacramento 170, San Francisco 170, Oakland 160, Stockton 120.  All miles approximate but fairly close.

Lots to see and do around here.  We are on the gold highway.

The bedroom and kitchen face each other with a suspended bridge 16' long between them.  The uphill patio is actually north of both of them to the right of the kitchen - kitchen is on the east of center and the studio apartment is joined with the kitchen.  The uphill patio joins the bedroom, suspension bridge on the north end of the great room and the kitchen.

[glenn-k]

The stucco paper around the 3rd bathroom above is 61 feet south of the uphill patio.  The lower entrance was not there when I did the floor plan.


The light at the end of the tunnel is the uphill patio.  The light to the right is a shortcut from the front porch to the lower level.  There will be stairs there and a door.

The log in the air is over 2' in diameter on this end and 24 feet long.  The floor at this end will be at -6" based on the great room floor as being 0'0".

Going from this end straight north, the rooms are 3rd bathroom and lower entrance 24' , great room including bridge 37', then the uphill patio about 12 feet then behind the strawbale wall is the shop at about 30'.  The laundry will move against the right wall just past the bathroom.

[glenn-k]

Sorry, Sharon - I couldn't even find my own floorplan.  Page 2.  The part marked storage/study is in one big room with the kitchen.  The plan is pretty well oriented to the north as you would expect it to be.  The new lower level entrance is roughly 15'x24' and extends south from the Great Room 24'.  Due to slope variations it will be at -6".  The new lower entrance area grew so now has room to move the laundry down there and clear off the porch area just outside of the kitchen window looking south.
A major consideration for the entrance is that it has a door big enough to get the Bobcat in the house.


Lots of dirt work to do inside yet.  Root cellar- hypocaust - etc.

[glenn-k]

We put a coat of stucco on the outside today.  We are doing it more as a ferrocement base for earth plaster.  We mixed it a bit extra strong as it is over the insulation and later will be landscaped against to make the entrance hide a little more back into the ground.  We also added fibermesh to the mix as reinforcement to combine with the wire in the stucco paper and make a wall that will be a lot stronger than plain stucco. The fibermesh is fine like hair - thousands per handfull, and tough like fishing line.



Fibermesh can be bought from the concrete company  for about $6.50 per bag which is enough for 1 cubic yard.  We put a medium handfull to 4 sand 1 plastic cement 1/2 lime putty and were very satisfied with the mix.  The fibermesh ties everything together and makes a great stucco or plaster.

I've found that by far the easiest way to plaster the wall is to have the wife do it.



I was just kidding - I actually worked on it too.  She also ran the mixer and made the next batch as I continued plastering.

Here is an overall view from the South looking North.  This is open on the South pretty well to gain winter solar heat.  The ground has been regraded to make it downhill to both sides to comply with Mikes requirements that water drain downhill onto solid ground.  Driving in from the east all you see is the garden on top the house.



The wind generator tower is visible in the back center just above the greenhouse roof.  Earth and rock is still up around the parts of the porch that are not glass.

[whitewolf]

Good morning Glenn,

I just may be figuring this all out.  I was trying to compare the pics with the floor plan and could not figure out how you could have a south facing view with the bathroom and great room in the way.....LEVELS!  ok, got it.

When you say that the bedroom is 8' the kitchen (i think it was) is 4'6" and that the great room is 0'0", can you explaine a little for me please.   (like, how far down is the floor of the great room and then how far up is floor level to other rooms)  When I first saw the pics it said bathroom looking up at hollywood window 8', I thought that ment the bottom of the window was as 8'.

Sorry to be so confused.  I'll try to blame it on being a woman.......and if that doesn't work, a blond....

[whitewolf]

Kathy,

Obviously Glenn had you do the stucco because he wanted it done right the first time......
(ok, women sticking up for women...LOL)

Good job, too!

Sharon

PS. hope this doesn't put my name on the no tresspassing sign

[glenn-k]

Kathy,

Obviously Glenn had you do the stucco because he wanted it done right the first time......
(ok, women sticking up for women...LOL)

Good job, too!

Sharon

PS. hope this doesn't put my name on the no tresspassing sign

Okay, Sharon, I think it's time you took a little time out now.  We'll start with 5 minutes in the corner ---- you must remain quiet if you want to come out.      Just kidding --  I know someone saying something like that couldn't really be serious  I am the man  

[whitewolf]

Hi Glenn,

Thanks for the time out. I love time to daydream about the house I want to build!

I don't think I have been this excited about an alternative building technique as I am this one. You are the "man" Glenn!  And you are lucky to have a wife like Kathy that will help you with your endevor.

This forum is definately my favorite!  

Could you please explaine the floor level heights in my earlier message today? (before I was naughty )

Thank you both for all you are willing to share with others,

Sharon  

PS. I promise to be good from now on  (thanks also for realizing I was just teasing)

[glenn-k]

Now that you have been sufficiently chastised, Sharon - by the way-- you can come out now- I will get on with your answer.  I had to send your little buddy, Kathy to work so you two don't gang up on me again.  

Good morning Glenn,

I just may be figuring this all out.  I was trying to compare the pics with the floor plan and could not figure out how you could have a south facing view with the bathroom and great room in the way.....LEVELS!  ok, got it.

 Levels and offsets and glass internal and external windows strategically placed so that they line up to give an outdoor view even at the kitchen sink.  South to southeast view from the window to the left of the kitchen sink  Southwest view about 35 feet away from the window in front of the kitchen sink View of the sky and rooftop garden from the sunscoop front left of the kitchen sink about 12 feet.  The kitchen, study/apartment, first bathroom, lower half  of the bridge and old mid level south entrance where the cat clay oven is, are all on the 4'6" floor elevation level, except the floor in the conversation pit is at 3'6 elevation.  The bottom of the bathroom window is 8' above the 4'6" floor elevation, top at about 11 feet.  All elevations are referenced from the great room floor level which is 0'0"  The new lower entrance to the great room, the new laundry area and the 3rd bathroom are at -6" -there will be one step up to the great room -easier to match existing grade this way and keep the entrance farther into the ground.  The elevation change is outside the kitchen sink wall and behind the kitchen stove and under the bridge, where it drops from 4'6" floor elevation to the great room floor at 0'0"  The kitchen ceiling at  11'0" at the highest point joins the great room ceiling at 15'6" on the other side of the glass/wood wall behind the stove.

When you say that the bedroom is 8' the kitchen (i think it was) is 4'6" and that the great room is 0'0", can you explaine a little for me please.   (like, how far down is the floor of the great room and then how far up is floor level to other rooms)  When I first saw the pics it said bathroom looking up at hollywood window 8', I thought that ment the bottom of the window was as 8'.

Up the steps in the center of the bridge to the 8' floor elevation of the bridge and bedroom.  The Bedroom ceiling goes up from 15'6" above the bridge (outside the bedroom at the ceiling of the great room to get head room to about 20' elevation or 12 feet above the bedroom floor.  Dirt goes up the wall at the head of the bed on the outside about 4 feet then the part that protrudes from the ground is insulated with strawbales at about R50.  The second bathroon is 4 steps down at 6' elevation floor level.  All rooftops are covered with earth at about 6 to 18 inches deep.  The old porch over the cat oven has 2 1/2 inches foam board and 2' of dirt/cob.  The new entrance will have ferrocement stucco with foam board or fiberglass depending on where it is then be covered with earth plaster.  It juts out of the ground about 6 feet - 4 feet under - will be planters on drip over some roofareas also.  I wanted to get the effect of having a 24' tree (viga) on the ceiling so wanted to cut weight loading on the roof except over posts and beams.

Sorry to be so confused.  I'll try to blame it on being a woman.......and if that doesn't work, a blond....

I feel it is my duty to try to keep you confused.
 Actually I enjoy seeing people who are here even wondering where they just were.  All rooftops either join with dirt just like a hilltop or have bridges or pathways to them.  Thus the handrails you see in the pictures.

[whitewolf]

Glenn,

Your house is the only other house I have seen pics of other then in Mike's book.  Do you know of other such houses that may have pics and/or info and where they are located posted on the web?  

Thanks,
Sharon

[glenn-k]

I only know of a couple - you have seen the pictures on Mikes site I assume.

The only other one I know of is Wendy's underground house which is currently for sale in Vermont.

http://www.homestead.com/peaceandcarrots/pictures.html

If I find more I'll post them.

So much stuff on the net!  Here are some interesting things with a little underground at Potkettleblack.  Follow the links to item 15 - Oehler style U house. -not a lot of info.

http://www.potkettleblack.com/natbild/index.html#underground

I combine lots of different ideas into my underground cabin - it is a bit of an ongoing experiment in all types of alternative building, but generally based on Mikes methods.  I always find mysellf going back to his rules and methods when I get in a hurry.  A cob wall is great under his framing, but his boards ,plastic and I add 30 lbtarpaper for extra protection, are faster.  Mostly think of it as a protest against forced purchases of high environmental impact, high embodied energy, high cost commercial products.  And I am not an environmentalist or tree hugger.  

I just don't like being pushed around at my expense.  I keep pulling big brothers hand out of my pocket and slapping it.  Who knows-- maybe some day he'll get tired of it and hit me over the head with a 2x4.  'til that day I'll keep safely resisting------- :-/

[whitewolf]

Hi Glenn (& Kathy too)

There is another thing I don't understand.  OK, you put in the posts and then add the boards, psp,and dirt until the wall is up to the roof (according to the book), but what if the wall extends above the ground before the roof?  How do you put windows 3+" deep on top of 1" deep boards? (hope I asked that right, or I hope you know what I mean)  In other words, what is the wall above ground made up of and how is it connected to the board wall?

In your house, did you finish the inside walls in any way or are they just the unfinished boards?  I was thinking of putting cob coating on them or maybe stone (or both)  Would this work?

I like the idea of a cob floor better than the dirt floor with a carpet over it!  What did you seal your floor with, if anything?

You mentioned that you used Mike's basic ideas and then added other styles you liked.  What other methods did you use that I might like to investigate?

Thanks again and I hope you are both doing well,
Sharon

[glenn-k]

Hi Glenn (& Kathy too)

There is another thing I don't understand.  OK, you put in the posts and then add the boards, psp,and dirt until the wall is up to the roof (according to the book), but what if the wall extends above the ground before the roof?  How do you put windows 3+" deep on top of 1" deep boards? (hope I asked that right, or I hope you know what I mean)

Boy, Sharon -- you are really getting into this aren't you???    Good question - I assume you mean because the frame on some sliders sticks all on the inside - some are half and half -  Its not really too much problem just frame it out with boards and do it like a regular wall - Since  your walls are all non-bearing you can do whatever you want.  Sometimes it is a bit of  a problem matching framing to crooked logs.  I get a lot of 4x4's free with my steel work so if I have good ones I use them or cut good ones on my saw mill.  You can put a 2x 6 or larger shelf at the bottom and or top of the window-cut it long enough to fit over the logs at the end next to the wall-angle cut on each end - when pressure pushes on it it can't go through- alternatively notch the log post a bit on both posts at the same elevation -slide the board in and toe nail it.  As Mike mentioned -he designed the frame only - he didn't go into details of fitting walls etc.  Each case seems to be different depending on location types of windows etc.  Since you are working with solid wood framing to it is not much of a problem.  Once you are above ground you can nail the boards to the back of the logs - I have gone to #10 galv ring shank nails -with the nail gun I can easily shoot lots of them and they hold real well.  A different case -lets look at this one
 The retaining boards in this case are full 2" thick of Bull Pine - very strong wood- A 15" log girder is overhead.  I cut 4x4's about 12" longer than the opening between the log and the retaining wall.  I coped the top to fit the log when in the plumb position even with the outside of the retaining board.   I coped the bottom to fit flush with the outside of the retaining boards with about 6" of lap, then nailed it to the retaining board and the girder.  Sometimes it takes a few cuts to get it right.  Offsetting and marking with a compass or scriber helps to get the marks right so the cut will fit the log.  I put a 4x4 header in and fastened the window to the frame.  The log on top is actually just a slab for trim.  This is not bearing so framing materials only need to be sufficient to hold the above ground window and wall.  The adobe or cob look is only stabilized earth plaster on stucco wire with about 4" straw added for strength and looks.  It is about 1" thick and very strong - there is no wood behind it, but later I will fill in the space with insulation and put on boards and plastic to make an insulated wall for the above ground part.  I guess the short answer is conventional frame and box out windows as necessary.

[glenn-k]

I actually got told my message was too long - cut it down--here's the rest - I hope. :-/


In other words, what is the wall above ground made up of and how is it connected to the board wall?

Here is another one-- 4x4's to the ground - boards nailed to them -furred out to match 2x8 retaining boards then window installed - this was a remodel job - We put a bigger window here the second year -


With the hard ground here I can drive a piece of rebar in, drill the bottom of the log or 4x4 -put down a piece of plastic to stop moisture -add a couple inches of cement if desired and use that to support the bottom of intermediate posts also.



In your house, did you finish the inside walls in any way or are they just the unfinished boards?  I was thinking of putting cob coating on them or maybe stone (or both)  Would this work?

 Most boards are unfinished but highlight areas, sink, counter and a few other places are varnished.  Mike says varnish everythng- plain is ok though -

Both would work - cob or earth plaster on stucco wire or jute landscape netting would work fine and also fireproof the wall.  Mike mentioned somewhere that rock could be used as infill if you desire - no boards needed - It would also make great bracing - I did one small area to support a roof.  Solid cob or rock infill is strong enough if done properly to support a girder -consideration would have to be given to the foundation under the wall if it is full thickness.  Unofficially, cob is good for 100 lbs per square inch compressive strength per Ken Kern and old USDA records or 14400 lbs per square foot - most ground is not rated at that though- mine will take it -through my own testing-nonofficial.  I use some cob as infill where walls go above ground.  Get Becky Bee's cob builders hand book or most of it is available on line.
http://www.weblife.org/cob/index.html

I like the idea of a cob floor better than the dirt floor with a carpet over it!  What did you seal your floor with, if anything?

The cob floor is our best - it seems to only come in brown -  Put it in - let it dry and crack - grout the cracks with a different color sand and clay grout if desired, to highlight them.  We mixed linseed oil and thinner 50/50 starting out then went thicker oil on the later coats.  After dry we put on Quikcrete concrete cure and seal.  Other more expensive sealers will work also.  Some talk of hard wax -I haven't tried it.  Shelley mentioned laquer thinner with styrofoam -as much as it will take-dissolved in it- brush it on walls - I don't know about floors - give a shiny plastic  finish.  I will try that some day -haven't yet.  Stabilizing the cob with cement makes it water resistant but it will not accept linseed oil as well therefore the top is not as durable -chips and has to be repaired every six months to year.  Some lady wrte a book about adobe floors - guess I should find it and buy it.  We use the acrylic or Quikcrete Cure and Seal on all the floors.  Rugs in strategic locations help on softer floors but someties wear the top off too.  Many times glass bowls etc. dropped won't break on the adobe floors.


You mentioned that you used Mike's basic ideas and then added other styles you liked.  What other methods did you use that I might like to investigate?

As above - cob, strawbale also to insulate above ground walls, foam board outside the single board walls and above board roofs where I didnt want full dirt loads on lighter framing and stucco or stabilized earth plaster - Check out Dirt Cheap Builder CD and books - Charmaine Taylor for personal service.  

http://store.yahoo.com/dirtcheapbuilderbooks/index.html



Thanks again and I hope you are both doing well,
Sharon[/quote]
My pleasure, Sharon

[whitewolf]

Glenn,

WOW! Thanks for all that info.  As I am not real familiar with all the building terms, it will take a while to absorb all that.  But that's a good thing for you.  If I am busy with that I won't have time for all these questions for you....LOL

Thank you for the link to potkettleblack, there are some good pic's there.  I just tried to email to Bruce & Cheryl (having lived in northern MN for a while I swear I have met them) to see where their house is and if I could visit, but the email address must be old, it was returned undeliverable.

Bummer, because being here in MN there is not a lot of alternative buildings to see.  Although there is a strawbale project just north of Brainard, MN that I hope to see this summer as I lucked out on my last visit to that area.  I have also tried to eamil a while back to people in Wisconsin that build/building a cordwood house with no success in getting a reply.

If I start to ask too many questions please let me know.  I don't want to be the only one asking, but it seems others are not speaking up as of yet. So please, let me know.  

I just love all this info and have determined this is the building technique I want to use on my MO land. There are no building codes/restrictions on my 2.5 ac with a steep slope. (purchased on the internet several years ago..not ebay..and hope to see it this summer)  

I am investigating a range that can be gas or solid fuel (wood, etc.) and will not only heat the house and cook, but will also heat water to use throught the house.  VERY spendy but this will be my only major expense for the inside of the house.

Thanks again,
Sharon

[whitewolf]

Glen,

P.S.....Being a Kitchen Designer with an amature interest in architectural drafting is what keeps me so inquisitive about all the details.  (that and I'm anal retentive so I have to know all there is to know about a subject I'm interested in) So thanks for putting up with me!

Sharon  

[glenn-k]

There are a lot of others who are interested in this because they think I am crazy and they wouldn't do it for themselves, so they don't ask a lot of questions.   I appreciate their compliments-- it keeps me thinking of weirder and weirder ways to do stuff.  By the questions you ask I assume you are also crazy, so you want to learn about this method.  I am willing to teach you what little I know--should take a couple of minutes.

Mike Oehler mentioned that a lot of people don't take him seriously because it doesn't cost enough to build.  That is why he is working on a book for a much more expensive underground house-- then maybe they will try it.

I am saying It can be done very cheaply as long as you don't count unnecessary things.  Electricity - running water - store bought doors are nice but not necessary for basic shelter -- a Bobcat -crane - cat -backhoe -sawmill etc. are not necessary to own but are nice to have-.  All the above and more money will allow you to more quickly build and increase the quality and size but are not required.  Salvaging, trading, barter, etc. can all be  used to do it cheaper.

Please feel free to keep asking questions -- maybe they'll recommend us both for the loonie bin.

As to a gas- wood range - the one in our kitchen is combo propane and wood.  Some had a water heating unit - ours does not.  It is a 1935 Wedgewood.  4 gas burners and gas oven-2 wood burners.  No safety features as it is original -

Actually, of all the methods of getting an underground home that I have looked at, none have the thought, versatility and good reasons for doing things certain ways like this design method by Mike Oehler.  I have seen other designs and houses built by the concrete terrorist's -as Mike calls them-- that are smaller costing in the estimated range of $300,000 to over $1,000,000.  I make decent money but not to spend that way.  

Quoting Baldasare Forestiere again, "To make something with lots of money that is easy— But to make something out of nothing... now that is something."