Author Topic: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin  (Read 264743 times)

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Offline Gary O

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #300 on: September 29, 2014, 04:24:55 PM »

Note to the Garry Santa - Please a Saw Stop Saw for Christmas!!!


Well crap, the thing is made in my back yard!


Kinda takes the fun outta rippin’, though….

Now, where’s my list.....

Ah, here it is;
I’m enjoying all that I own, the moment.

“Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air.” Emerson

Offline Gary O

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #301 on: December 27, 2014, 06:16:38 PM »
Just got back from four days at the cabin.

Pooped

Happy

Burned some slash

Here we are, moving there in May
Don’t have the addition on, thus the wood stove isn’t installed yet
Don’t have the utility shed up, thus no electric hooked up to the well

And every time I get on here and see all these magnificent places, my mind goes; ‘self; are you effing nuts???!!’

Then I settle down and compose myself with a calming reassuring determination....that yes, yes I am nuts.

But

Here’s the deal;
We just survived four days at the cabin during the beginning of winter.
Pretty mild at 20°F, but, without a tiny propane buddy heater, it’s p-r-e-t-t-y durn freekin’ cold.
OK, we have two big buddy heaters.
So we were just cold at night.
Oh, we haven’t insulated the boudoir just yet either.
Turns out, one can actually shiver themselves to sleep.
At least until, well...
what is it about a mate’s hind end becoming an iceberg, anyway?

Anyhoot, I figger this;

Got the summer to do what we can before next winter.
But the clincher is, everything we do will be an improvement, progress.
Not packing up
Not driving hundreds of miles
Not going home
We will be home
Doing the next thing


And the next....
I’m enjoying all that I own, the moment.

“Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air.” Emerson

Offline rick91351

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #302 on: December 27, 2014, 06:58:04 PM »
Gary may I interject the worse part of what you are saying there is always a next....  Ellen and I are living that life right now.  Somewhere in the A B C through like  XYZ and around Q R S we needed to build a real wood shed.....

Proverbs 24:3-5 Through wisdom is an house builded; an by understanding it is established.  4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.  5 A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.

Offline Gary O

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #303 on: December 28, 2014, 05:25:24 AM »
Well slow the heck down!
I gotta catch up!

Real wood shed, or real woodshed?

See, I'm easily confused
I’m enjoying all that I own, the moment.

“Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air.” Emerson

Offline rick91351

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #304 on: December 28, 2014, 06:48:12 AM »
Real wood shed or real wood shed sort of sounds like - You got a lot of a lot of rattlesnakes up here? And You got a lot of rattlesnakes up here!!!!!

A shed we store firewood in.  Firewood well cured is now is under a green tarp and now very moist......  due to huge amount of rains and high winds.....
Proverbs 24:3-5 Through wisdom is an house builded; an by understanding it is established.  4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.  5 A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.

Offline Gary O

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #305 on: December 28, 2014, 08:10:14 AM »
 Well, here’s the deal.
I’ve fed wood stoves and chopped/piled wood most of my youth.
Our woodshed consisted of two side (end) walls and a makeshift roof.
The makeshift roof was removable for tossing wood off the truck.
Not sure how anyone else did it.

I do hate wet wood.
(you can have yer rattlers, btw)

Now, I’m just gonna sidle back over to yer thread and gaze at pictures……..

I’m enjoying all that I own, the moment.

“Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air.” Emerson

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #306 on: December 30, 2014, 10:34:42 AM »
we made a pretty simple (and nice we think) wood shed by digging holes in the ground (12"-18") and setting logs in them (8-12" dia - and dead already so pretty dry), concreting around them for stability and then nailing (with great big galvy's) cross logs on top of them.  Then used smaller 'logs' (4-6" dia) as 'rafters which we nailed scrap wood onto and then screwed down metal roofing.  Sure is nice to have a dry place to store wood :) and it looks rustic too.

Oh and we salvaged pallets for flooring.

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #307 on: December 30, 2014, 10:39:20 AM »
I missed that you were planning on living there some how!  Good on you guys!  I hope you enjoy it and get some relaxing in after all the initial 'gettin' ready part :)

Offline Gary O

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #308 on: December 30, 2014, 01:59:36 PM »
I missed that you were planning on living there some how!  Good on you guys!  I hope you enjoy it and get some relaxing in after all the initial 'gettin' ready part :)
‘relaxing’

…can’t

I’ve gotta learn how to do that

I s’pose we’ll set aside some days to get a line wet, but the niggling of the coming (first) winter will keep me moving at a purty good clip that first summer.

I figger I’ll have to buy my wood as it is.
Once settled, we’ll be posting our progress.
Oughta be a kick

(yer place, along with Rick’s of course, is wunna them places I previously mentioned…and covet)


I’m enjoying all that I own, the moment.

“Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air.” Emerson

Offline Redoverfarm

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #309 on: December 30, 2014, 02:23:30 PM »
Gary if you are like the most of us the permanent shed is not high on our priority list.  Maybe because the wood is a short term commodity.  Yes I will at some point build something more permanent but for now temporary is 'getting us by". 

I use a very easy structure.  Pick your self up some salvage pallets.  Helps if they are somewhat the same size.  Locate about 4T-post.  Lay a couple pallets on the ground end to end.  Now drive two T-post spaced so that you can slip two other pallets down over them one on top of the other standing up.  Now you have one end and the floor.  Do the same thing for the other end and it is finished except for a roof.  You can be inventive on this but for me I use 2X material as a couple rafters and then use scrap tin to cover.  Use additional pallets on top to hold down the tin. You can use tarps as well.  I try not to cover the ends of the wood which allow it to dry and only cover it to keep water from hitting the top. 

Good luck.  I know you will come up with something to your likin.  Well back to the ice packs.

Offline Gary O

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #310 on: December 30, 2014, 03:07:30 PM »
Yeah, many ways to do stuff.

Heh, sittin’ here in town, twistin’ knobs, flickin’ switches.
Not much of a life, I’ll tell ya.

Come o-o-o-o-n spring
I’m enjoying all that I own, the moment.

“Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air.” Emerson

Offline Gary O

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #311 on: February 01, 2015, 06:51:05 AM »
OK, around 100 days left til we move to the cabin.
Got a list a mile long of things that gotta get done.
I’ve dawdled about as long as I dare.
If I think about it all at once I tend to head to the fridge and pop a cold one.
So I’m just consecrating on one thing at a time, and checking them off as I go.
Thing is, some stuff coincide with other things, so the one-at-time rule doesn’t apply to everything (drives me nuts).
Just sold the house (kinda a biggy) check.
One thing that I’m gonna think about right now (while our backs learn to quit screaming from cleaning out that container we bought) is battery power.
Not solar
Not there…yet
Jenny to battery to things.
I’ve got this simple question.
Heh, stopped at Batteries Plus. Thought they’d just rattle off answers and point. The pimple faced kid had no idea what I was even talking about.
I’ll still keep them in mind for AA and AAA batteries.

Here’s my simple question;

What do I need in order to have power to a half dozen 100 watt lightbulbs, a couple laptops (notebooks) and five minutes worth of toaster/microwave activity?
OK, I really don’t care about the toaster or microwave, but thought I’d throw those in there while I was asking.
Thing is, I really really don’t want to know why.
‘Why’ is for those who I consider geniuses.
I’m just smart enough to have come to the conclusion that I’m not a genius since I have the intellect of a hammer (not a nailer….n-o-o-o-o, not a nailer).
I just want to know ‘what’.

My question;
I know I need a;
 Battery (deep cycle I s’pose)
Inverter
Cable
Charge controller
Converter
A/C power cord (with some sorta fancy converter connectors)

 What brands, kinds, what’s best, from where, what else?
(OK it’s a multi-part question)

Once I get some input from you geniuses, and compile my list, we’ll move on to the subject of how.

I intend on getting wunna those Honda EU2000i jenny/inverters, so maybe I won’t need a stand alone inverter (??)
And it won’t actually say ‘Honda’ on it. It’ll say ‘Predator’ and come with a price tag that says $500.

Anyhoot, once I’ve got some input, I’m off to the store.
Then hooking it all up here at the house for a bit of self show and tell.

Standing by




I’m enjoying all that I own, the moment.

“Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air.” Emerson

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #312 on: February 01, 2015, 11:36:14 AM »
Forget incandescent.  100 watters too if you ask me.  Try looking at HD for LED's in the 60watt equivalent range.  I found some of those that use 9watts of power to produce the 'sorta like' 60 watt incandescent light.  They work well, will last and will save you money in the long run.

Next, consider Costco or Sam's Club golf cart batteries.  We call them GCB's in most solar threads.  They tend to weigh about 65lbs a piece and give about 220AH (Amp Hours) of power each but since they are 6 volts and you need at least 12 (better to go with 24v) you have to put two together (to get 12v) which gives you 220AH at 12v...if you want 24v like my system than you need 4 of them in 'series' (minus to plus on down the line) and you'll have 220AH at 24v (series doesn't add the amp hours, just the volts, parallel ads the amp hours but not the volts)...I'll do a drawing.

So, next you need to know how many amps you plan to use per day and that will be a key factor in knowing what you need.  For example: if you use 1 light at a time for the most part than you can say you will use 9.4 watts (my calc on the LED's) per hour of usage and if you figure 4 hrs average (5pm to 9pm) than you will use 9.4 times 4hrs for a total of 37.6watt hours of use -- now change that to amp hours (so you can look at the battery and know what kind of life you'll get) 37.6watt hours divided by the voltage (12v for example) equals 3.14Amp Hours.

So if you have 220 amp hours than you can run that light bulb a LONG time.  In theory you could run it 220AH/3.14AH=70 hours.

But here's the thing:  what you take out, you must put back in :D

So I look at batteries like a as tank that you can only use 20% of daily (max) and must put back in 20% daily or the tank won't hold anymore gas ;)

So, 20% of 220AH = 44AH.  So if you just had two batteries you could use that much power per day and if you had a good 20 amp (or better) charger than you could put that back into the batteries daily with just 2-3 hours of gen run time.

Make sense?


This is a simple drawing of what you need.  For a simple low cost system you can use something like the AIMS 55amp 12v charger and say the AIMS 2500 watt inverter (modified) which I ran when I started out.  Worked for most things except lithium ion powered stuff and some of my wifes hair irons.


Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #313 on: February 01, 2015, 11:40:30 AM »
The above will allow you to draw 88AH of power in an evening (usually at night we use most power) and only draw the bank to 80% (20% Depth of Discharge) of charge which is a safe amount to draw it down and have it live a long time.  You would need to know how much power everything you plan to use requires.  I'd make a list of each item and post it here (toasters use 750-1100watts for example, so I don't use one except on very rare occasions), MW's use around 1500watts (some less, as low as 1000 maybe, some more, up to 1800).  Once you have all those and get the amount of time per day you expect to use them we can assist you in figuring out how much power daily you would use.  Once done we can help you decide what kind of set up might work best based on budget etc.

Another thing to consider is this:  how often do I want to run the gen?  Is there anything that is power related that will always be one?

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #314 on: February 01, 2015, 12:12:04 PM »
OJH, caught the incandescent thing... You do not want any incandescents running off a battery. IMO, you should skip the CFL's and jump right to LED's. We use the Cree 60 watt daylight 120 VAC LED's in our home and cabin. I wondered if I would be happy with their output, tried two and convinced myself I did not need anything higher even for old eyes. Try one or two at home if you have not already.Lowe's and others also have nice 120 VAC LED's, 40, 60 and even 100 watts.

If you really plan on NO other 120 VAC uses I am impressed. We are very citified I suppose, what with our electric can opener, coffee maker, microwave, electric kettle, 40" LED TV .....   We also charge our laptops,  phones and MP3 player from 120 VAC.  We do have three DC powered florescent lights under the kitchen cabinets (Thinlite brand) plus a DC powered water pump.

 If you skip the m-wave and any other electric appliances you can get along with a very small battery capacity. Be warned that electrical use grows. It always has dating back to the days when farms across the country were connected to the first rural power co-ops.


So before getting too far along in making equipment suggestions  be very careful instating what is needed. If there is a chance of wanting something in the future try to anticipate that now, as off grid power systems can be problematic to add on later.  The number of hours of use as well as the wattage consumed must be calculated. If anyone tells you that "this here setup" is all you need, there is every chance it will either be too large a system or too small a system. 


Including something like a microwave takes a tiny system into the realm of a big, small system. That requires a bigger inverter. Bigger inverters waste more power than a small inverter, when doing small loads.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

Offline Gary O

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #315 on: February 01, 2015, 12:33:21 PM »
 Well, there’s some info for sure…….
Usually after I recv detailed instruction like that, I thank the individual and go on my merry way, ending up rubbing two sticks together.

But

You, sir, are more than a genius, because I’ll be dogged if I don’t understand everthing you writ.
And, yeah, those kinda bulbs.

Thing is, originally I just didn’t want to hear the hum of a tiny jenny while I’m on my laptop, or have the place lit up for finding important things after dark, like each other. But, it still may be a consideration, since the thing goes several hrs on a gallon of gas.

However

Your diagram, and simple info make it all seen quite possible. Yessir.
You s’pose, for startup, I could get away with just two GCBs if I just powered up 6 of those fancy bulbs for 3-4 hrs?
(I’m thinking I could charge the laptop batts during the day when the jenny is on)

edit after reading MD's input;
LED bulbs, yes
just need lights for now...I know...I know.....future, but very willing to trade up or scrap, or put in another cabin....
so, just need lights for now (wife doesn't want toasters or MW stuff anyway)


I’m enjoying all that I own, the moment.

“Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air.” Emerson

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #316 on: February 01, 2015, 12:53:10 PM »
Well you could get away with two GCB's if you only ran lights.  But bear in mind that they don't take well to adding more later.  You can add a coupel more in a year or so if you are kind but then it's a done deal more or less.  So at $90ea (roughly) it makes more sense to me to get at least 4 ;)

As for your question the math tells the tale ;)

6 lights at 9.4watts each running for one hour use a total of 56.4 watt hours.  Converted to AMPS that's 4.7Amp Hours (AH). 

Running 4 hours at 4.7AH means you would use 18.8AH of battery capacity PLUS the amount used by the Inverter (which draws power to run) during the same time.  Let's take an example:

AIMS 2000 Watt Modified Sine Wave Inverter (just because they are cheap and I like them) uses 2Amps with no load (we will assume it's negligible above that for now) so for 4 hours it will draw at least 8AH and your lights will use 18.8AH (let's round to 20 to be safe) so we're now at a total of 28AH of battery capacity in 4 hours.

No TV?  No Radio?  No Laptop? Etc?  Just to run the lights alone and not draw the system below 80% of charge you would be fine with just two of those golf cart batteries since 20% of 220AH is 44AH.

Make sense?  You're close with 28AH since you only have 16AH left to get to the 80% you really want to stay above but you're ok.

As mentioned above, I think of it like a tank :)  took 28AH out, need to put 28AH back in :)

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #317 on: February 01, 2015, 12:55:50 PM »
On a side note I just saw this little inverter charger that's Pure Sine Wave: http://www.theinverterstore.com/2000-watt-pure-sine-inverter-charger.html#

For the price something like that might work nicely for you.  You won't need a charge since it has a 40A charger with it (replace that 28AH in an hour easy) and has some other nice features.  I use an AIMS 4000 Watt pure sine inverter charger and have come to love that thing :)

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #318 on: February 01, 2015, 01:12:34 PM »
Just for fun I put this drawing together....


It sorta shows the 'tank' idea.  Using 28AH of lights over a 4hr period would draw down the two GCB's to 87% of capacity. 

Offline Gary O

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #319 on: February 01, 2015, 01:24:53 PM »
Man, that's the info I needed.
Much appreciated, OJ and MD
I’m enjoying all that I own, the moment.

“Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air.” Emerson

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #320 on: February 01, 2015, 04:52:52 PM »
Notes and thoughts about things I believe you need to know....

Microwave ovens, do not like to run on cheap Modified Sine Wave (MSW) inverters. The m-oven will ne noisier in operation but more importantly will be incredibly less efficient. The MSW will cause the m-oven to have to run longer to heat the same item than is Pure Sine Wave (PSW) power was used.

The more the electronics in a device the shorter it’s life will likely be. Many devices will operate, but will operate less efficiently, hotter, noisier. LED’s and CFL’s have electronics. Perhaps they will humm a little off key, but they will probably die earlier too. Hard to measure that. Some tool battery chargers will not function on MSW, some devices will smoke, and others don’t have immediate problems. It is something of a crap shoot as to how fast issues arise.

Needless for me to say, but I believe PSW inverters are worth their extra cost.
IF you don’t have any devices that consume large numbers of watts of power there are a couple very nice PSW inverters in the 300 watt range. That will run your lights and laptops. Morningstar has one, the Sure-Sine 300. No fan, very low no load and idle self consumption. Samlex also has a 300 watt that is PSW with low power loses. The Morningstar even has a standby mode. Extremely low power consumption when sleeping. It does need at least 8 watts to wake it up; one of the 60 watt LED lights will do that.

OJH mentioned that m-ovens use more watts than their rated cook power. Cooking power is the watts you see advertised, 600, 700, 1100....  The actual consumption of our 700 watt is 1050. The 1100 watt m-oven we have consumes 1550 in use. Size the power supply to suit.

 An inverter /charger is good in general. Often the battery charger in an inverter/charger is better than a stand alone charger. That can vary between brands.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #321 on: February 01, 2015, 04:54:15 PM »
If you are depending on a generator to supply 100% of the recharging power for the batteries the batteries will likely be more abused and not last as long as if a solar charger is part of the system. Reason: the last 15% or so of the charge takes as long as the other 85%. An FLA (flooded lead acid) or AGM (sealed) battery needs a couple hours or so charge at a low rate of charge to get it to 100% full. Or even close to 100% full. Full should be reached every day if possible; no less than once a week for certain. When an FLA is left in a partial discharge state for too long the lead plates deteriorate. The result is the battery can then no longer deliver all the power it used to, and it can not even be recharged to the rated capacity. Because of that slow last part of the charge it costs a lot of fuel to reach 100% full. Seldom done woith generator only supplying the power. Even a little bit of solar to finish off the charge is better than none. But again, beware, off grid systems don't enlarge easily or well. If you only charge with a generator and don't otherwise abuse the batteries a lot you could still get 3 - 4 years out of a set. Still not too bad if they are golf cart batteries bought at the Costco / Sam's Club pricing.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #322 on: February 01, 2015, 05:03:07 PM »
IF you are certain you will run LED lights, charge the laptops and that's about all, I believe the Sure-Sine with two 6 volt golf cat batteries will be a good match. IF you go that low power route, a charger like an Iota DLS-30 would be a decent choice.

A small inverter generator could supply 120 VAC power for a microwave on a start up the generator every time you want to use the m-oven. That could get tiresome.  ???  A  2000 watt model most likely.  And check the specs before buying; with a generator the number in the model name, as EU2000, is usually the maximum surge power. The continuous rated power of that one is 1600 watts.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

Offline Gary O

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #323 on: February 01, 2015, 05:29:53 PM »
Geeez Don.
And to think you guys carry all this in yer heads.

OK, I think y’all have given me a solid direction.
I’m going with only two batts.
Even if I end up spending a grand, I’ll just haul it over to the shop when I upgrade….once the shop is in existence.

I do have a larger jenny for saws and such, but the noise...whoa

I’ll be back with more questions (hopefully not the same ones…….)

Thanks again

I’m enjoying all that I own, the moment.

“Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air.” Emerson

Offline speedfunk

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Re: Our Tiny (10 x 12) Cabin
« Reply #324 on: February 02, 2015, 06:45:54 AM »
wow..cool gary.  You got your place sold that is huge.  Now the adventure begins...learning through doing..congrats on making your dream real. 

Woodshed..ha... I just got something up this year as well.  The reality is that I think when i piled the wood in pile (to shed water) and put a tarp with tires holding it down it seemed to have worked better keeping wood dry then my new skidable redneck/repurposed tin roof shed.  maybe i'm wrong though sometimes its tough to look back when you need to keep your eyes on the horizon...bt winter is a good time for that kind of reflection.  My best to you gary...woot. 
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