Author Topic: Would this work? If not why not?  (Read 7062 times)

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Offline keyjoy

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Would this work? If not why not?
« on: June 10, 2011, 03:30:38 PM »
We are building our own house, we dug the holes for the piers last weekend. Went today to buy the rebar and no one would load the 20' sticks in our truck and we don't know anyone with a trailer to haul it. To get it delivered will cost a bunch and they can't bring it till next week.
So we came home empty-handed and Hubby had an idea. Why can't we instead of using rebar, use T-posts?
He drew up a plan.
We are building in Missouri, no codes or zoning, BUT we want it to be safe of course.
Will this work? If not can you tell us why you think it won't?

Offline dug

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Re: Would this work? If not why not?
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2011, 04:42:16 PM »
I'm not sure about the T-bar but most building supply yards have a rebar cutter. If not you could bring a hacksaw and cut them in half yourself.

Offline Redoverfarm

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Re: Would this work? If not why not?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2011, 05:00:51 PM »
I'm not sure about the T-bar but most building supply yards have a rebar cutter. If not you could bring a hacksaw and cut them in half yourself.

When I started with our house back in 94 I didn't have a way to haul 20' sticks and the supplier would cut them in half (10') so I could haul.  Since then I have bought 20' sticks as I have a means to haul the longer length.  In fact I have probably bought enough 20' sticks on various projects including addition to the house and the cabin to stretch across the state if laid end to end. ;)  I really think that rebar is the best approach.  Yes I have used angle iron and everything else in footings and forms but rebar is the best to work with.  They are designed (ribs) to hold when surrounded by concrete to prevent seperation and cracks. Not to mention that you can add several in one sepecific area (cages) without sacrificing the amount of concrete.  Larger diameter metal take up too much room to gain the same reenforcement. 

Offline PEG688

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Re: Would this work? If not why not?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2011, 07:32:07 PM »

 I'm trying to figure out how you think the post bracket you ,   (((very nicely depicted , nice graphics  [cool] )) intend to make out of the modified fence posts equates to 20' long rebar sticks???

  You can buy post brackets from Simpson , like this one ,

 

 You'd still need rebar imbedded in the concrete pier , with the post base sticking out of the top.

 
When in doubt , build it stout with something you know about .

Offline PEG688

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Re: Would this work? If not why not?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2011, 07:33:54 PM »

 Rebar cutter could be rented from a rental place. A sawsall with a metal cutting blade would cut it as well and the  hack saw already mentioned.
When in doubt , build it stout with something you know about .

Offline Texas Tornado

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Re: Would this work? If not why not?
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2011, 11:24:10 PM »
T-posts are not one piece but 2 or more welded/formed together, lighter metal and not grooved like rebar nor do they have the staying power of rebar..

Offline keyjoy

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Re: Would this work? If not why not?
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2011, 01:56:34 AM »
I asked all 3 lumber yards I went to if they could cut it in half so I could haul it and none of them would. So much for customer service  :(. The first thing my DH said when I told him I couldn't get it was we would take a hacksaw with us and saw them all in half in the parking lot.
The 20'sticks are 6.29 each, the 10' are 5.51. It's the principle! :)
It makes sense that the T-posts would take up more room in the concrete. DH just came up with the idea of "killing 2 birds with one stone" as far as using the T posts as rebar in the pier, then drilling holes in the shovel part of the t-post to use as a beam brace.
Thanks for all your comments. We really wanted to get started on the rebar in the holes this weekend(Sunday and Monday are our weekends).
New camera is coming Monday. I am planning to start a build thread.

Offline Ernest T. Bass

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Re: Would this work? If not why not?
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2011, 03:22:05 AM »
Wow, I can't believe all three yards wouldn't do a simple thing like that for you.. Our little podunk DoitBest will cut stuff up, bend stuff and even rip up wood on their table saw, often for free on smaller orders.. We've had the rebar cut every time we've bought it.

Only thing they don't do is supply a pick with their rented scaffolding...  d*

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Offline rick91351

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Re: Would this work? If not why not?
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2011, 05:40:16 AM »
Wow, I can't believe all three yards wouldn't do a simple thing like that for you.. Our little podunk DoitBest will cut stuff up, bend stuff and even rip up wood on their table saw, often for free on smaller orders.. We've had the rebar cut every time we've bought it.

Only thing they don't do is supply a pick with their rented scaffolding...  d*

If the local lumber yards will not do that then check in the phone book for construction supply or concrete construction supply.  Most times they carry what you need.  They custom cut and bend.  They might even have what you need laying around.  

I can not say enough good about our local small lumber yards and hardware stores around here.  Our neighborhood DoItBest is also great and they also the local lumber yard.  They give me the best builders discount of any where I have ever taken my business.  They are service oriented and most times carry better quality hardware and goods than the Big Box Stores.  Prices are not a lot different and if I ask them how to, can you, or will this work they will jump right in and help!  They also will cut and bend rebar if they are not swamped.  In my case I know where it is at.

As far as T post design - Wow your graphic is so good!!!  However rebar is designed and engineered to be bent, wired and used to strengthen concrete.  T Posts are designed to be driven in to the ground and hold up wire.  As Mountain Don says 'Just because something has been done and hasn’t failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.'  If you are determined to use T post then a couple pointers they should not be driven in to the ground nor touch the earth.  For that matter nor should rebar or concrete reinforcing wire.  This is a conduit for moisture.  In turn this causes the metal to rust and this will deteriorate.  When it starts to rust your concrete will fail over time quicker than if you leave it out.  That is why they sell chairs or seats to hold rebar up off the ground.  The amount of concrete displaced using T post against rebar.  That might be a half of square point shovel full.  I guess I do not understand your logic there maybe I am missing something!    

Using those brackets as PEG showed works great.  If you use them with Pressure Treat line the saddle with tar paper or house wrap.

Good luck on your build!!    
Proverbs 24:3-5 Through wisdom is an house builded; an by understanding it is established.  4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.  5 A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.

Offline Don_P

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Re: Would this work? If not why not?
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2011, 09:05:39 AM »
One of our local owner builders used it in his footing sticking up for block reinforcement. The inspector failed it, or tried to, before being chased off. He decided it wasn't a battle worth fighting and I kind of agree. It is deformed enough to function more than likely, the steel is probably no worse than rebar, which is scrap. I wouldn't trust the welds or the guage of the "shovel" to support anything... and so it becomes a kind of expensive replacement for rebar. I've got some lightweight posts made from rebar.

The big boxes here do not cut or bend but the little guys each have a cutter/bender by the pile in the yard. The big box will deliver for $35 so if you gang up and get a load of stuff that'll take care of it.

I've fabricated brackets, bases and hangers and was discussing some with the mason and building official yesterday. The columns in the shot below will continue 3' above the porch floor. He'll project rebar up through the columns and drill thru the bluestone caps. I'll weld a bearing plate and vertical knife plate that will be inserted into the end of porch posts and pinned. Nothing commercially available will do this and technically an engineer would design and stamp it and I'd have a certified welder come out and do the work. I've gone this route before and it isn't cheap. He's seen how I do things and we're ok'ed to do the work. I can see both sides of this so if I fab something it is going to be hell for stout.

Offline Squirl

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Re: Would this work? If not why not?
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2011, 04:36:17 PM »
A lot of good advice. It would probably work, but...

I don't know what size you are building, but you said you are using piers.  If you are using John’s plans for piers, they use very little rebar for the whole foundation.  How much extra are you really talking in the end? I did the calculations for 12 piers for a little house up north were there is a 4 ft frost depth.  I estimated eight 10 ft pieces at $5 for $40 at our local big box retailer, vs. four 20 ft for $25.  This is a difference of $15.  It would have cost me more in gas to drive my jeep back and forth to the store empty handed. I didn't even know they sold it in 20ft lengths until you mentioned it. Remember this is a 30-50 year investment and one of the largest assets you will have.  You would be going with an experimental method vs. a tried and true building method for $15 savings or principle.  My concern is with the connectors.  The Simpson brackets are usually galvanized and designed to last the long haul, while those posts are not.  I like the thinking outside the box, and if you had said cabin, I would say why not.  But the foundation of your house is not the place you want to play penny wise, but pound foolish.


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Offline considerations

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Re: Would this work? If not why not?
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2011, 05:15:29 AM »
I'm trying to figure out how you think the post bracket you ,   (((very nicely depicted , nice graphics  [cool] )) intend to make out of the modified fence posts equates to 20' long rebar sticks???

  You can buy post brackets from Simpson , like this one ,

 

 

I just tried to buy some of these and was told they were no longer being made.  The replacement was still Simpson and similar, no more bolt holes, just lots of screw holes and came with a bag of those new screws with the high shear ratings and were about $30 each, being heavier duty than the ones above.  Also....some of them were not square.  I had to go back and swap 2. 

Offline keyjoy

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Re: Would this work? If not why not?
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2011, 05:58:49 AM »
Lots of Good Advice. Thank You.
I am REALLY upset with the stores that wouldn't cut the rebar. One big box store, two regional lumberyards.
Squirl, couldn't agree with you more. It's the principle of the thing. :)
We live 25 miles from the nearest city with the 3 lumberyards, which is the city we work in. So we didn't waste gas (but that is a very good thought) went there after work.
There is a town 35 miles in the other direction that has a do-it-best center. We will check them out.
We have 35 holes dug,the house will be 32X44. We were going to buy 18 20'sticks of rebar. 18X 6.50=117.00,  compared to 36 10' sticks =198.00 . That's 80 dollars difference. Just for rebar that we don't need much of but that 80 dollars would have bought 23 bags of concrete mix.
The T-post was just an idea. :).

Will check out the concrete supply places tomorrow.
We built the small house we are living in now. We used post and beam. The posts were trees we cut from our land. It is sturdy.
We made lots of mistakes, but we learned from them :) Hopefully. :)
The major mistake we made was the floor. Joists too far apart and we used 1/2 inch plywood for subfloor. It is Bouncy. :( . So we want to get the new one right.
Thanks  for all the advice.

Offline Native_NM

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Re: Would this work? If not why not?
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2011, 08:55:23 AM »
I've followed this thread and am still trying to figure out how the rebar and the post anchor are interchangeable.    The rebar in the post hole / pier is needed for strength.  Your graphic (very well done by the way) shows what appears to be a homemade post anchor embedded in the pier.  You would still need a rebar cage in the post hole independent of how you attach the post to the pier.  Am I missing something?
New Mexico.  Better than regular Mexico.

Offline Don_P

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Re: Would this work? If not why not?
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2011, 09:23:21 AM »
I just tried to buy some of these and was told they were no longer being made.  The replacement was still Simpson and similar, no more bolt holes, just lots of screw holes and came with a bag of those new screws with the high shear ratings and were about $30 each, being heavier duty than the ones above.  Also....some of them were not square.  I had to go back and swap 2. 

The CB line is still in the online catalog. I suspect that is a dealer or distributor issue rather than them being discontinued.
http://strongtie.com/products/connectors/LCB-CB.asp

Offline keyjoy

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Re: Would this work? If not why not?
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2011, 09:25:36 AM »
No Native_NM, you aren't missing anything that I know of. Since we couldn't get the rebar we were going to get,  we were just asking if using  T-posts would work as rebar. They are both grooved and metal. And while we were at it we thought of modifying the bottom of 2 t-posts as a brace for beams.
2 t-posts in each hole, upside down, was what we thought of.

Offline ScottA

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Re: Would this work? If not why not?
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2011, 02:07:13 PM »
There's about a million things that can go wrong with this plan but great out of the box thinking!  :)

Offline Hi Road

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Re: Would this work? If not why not?
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2011, 06:09:51 PM »
I just got done putting in 300' of fence using T-posts.  The flat plates shown in the drawing are just pressed on to the T-post nubs in reality.  Not much strength there.  Oh, 6' T-posts at HD are $5.20 each.

Offline keyjoy

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Re: Would this work? If not why not?
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2011, 08:23:53 AM »
Yippee!! Called the building supply place that is 35 miles south of us and they are cheaper  (5.99 a 20' stick) than any of the three places I went to in the town we work in (25 miles north of us). THEY will also cut it in half so that we can haul it in our truck. Yippee!!! Guess who will be getting our business from now on?
So we are using rebar!!

Offline UK4X4

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Re: Would this work? If not why not?
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2011, 09:13:16 AM »
http://www.permacolumn.com/SW66-for-6-x-6-Post_p_8.html

This company sells the bolt on post holder variety as well as posts and cement in place versions.

I plan to use the above bolt ons over my waterproofed deck

Offline considerations

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Re: Would this work? If not why not?
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2011, 07:40:21 AM »
"I plan to use the above bolt ons over my waterproofed deck"

That's good to know, they are a lot less expensive - 5 of the others were $omewhat painful.

Offline PEG688

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Re: Would this work? If not why not?
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2011, 08:13:28 AM »
The CB line is still in the online catalog. I suspect that is a dealer or distributor issue rather than them being discontinued.
http://strongtie.com/products/connectors/LCB-CB.asp

 I agree with Don_P IF they are no longer available it must be a very recent change. I got some of these what seems like just a  couple of months ago.  
When in doubt , build it stout with something you know about .

Offline considerations

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Re: Would this work? If not why not?
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2011, 06:48:54 PM »
Perhaps I got snowed by a sales person.  Wouldn't be the first time.

 

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