China Syndrome

[MushCreek]

No, not the old movie, but a blow-by-blow description of what I went through to make a cheap machine functional.

A while back, I bought a very cheap horizontal bandsaw at Harbor Freight. It was the grand opening, and they had 'em for $99- less than a buck a pound! I had one of these before, and after the necessary tune-up, it worked surprisingly well. I brought my new prize home, and went through all of the usual adjustments for one of these saws. As soon as I started cutting though, the blade jumped off. Assuming the blade was junk, I put a decent one on, but got the same result. I messed around with it a while, and finally parked it.

Today, I needed to cut a bunch of iron pipe, so I dragged it out, and, of course, it hadn't gotten any better. Now, I believe that nearly any machine can be made to work, and was determined to save this thing. Having adjusted everything adjustable, I checked the drive wheel, which isn't adjustable, and found 3 things wrong. The wheel wasn't aligned with the rest of the machine, but angled the wrong way, encouraging the blade to fall off. The bearing supporting the drive shaft was meant to be press-fit, but was floating around freely. Lastly, there was nothing to prevent the shaft from moving back, other than the drive wheel itself. I peened the opening of the bearing housing to keep the bearing in place, shimmed the gear housing to properly align it, and stacked up 1/2" of washers to keep the wheel where it belongs without floating inward. Yes, I said 1/2"!

It would have made a cat laugh watching me try to re-install the wheel on a shaft that was free to move back. I finally removed the cover to the gear box so I could hold the shaft in place. Of course, all of the nasty 'lubricant ran' out, since you can only do this procedure with the cutting head upright. The rubber gasket now leaks profusely, since the lubricant attacked it and reduced it to the consistency of cooked pasta.

It's way too late to make a long story short, but I was successful! It cuts great, and the blade no longer falls off. If I decide to keep the little bugger, I'll re-machine the gear box to align it. rather than a shim. While I'm at it, I'll machine some drain and fill holes so I can add lubricant from time to time. I'll also make a nice spacer to replace the 'stack-o-washers' I cobbled it together with. Either that, or machine a snap ring groove in the shaft to hold it in place.

So, for a mere $99, and a half a day's work for a skilled millwright with a machine shop at his disposal, you too can have a nice little saw!

[Redoverfarm]

Jay you have got more patience than me.  I would have taken it back and exchanged it for another only after an inspection of the exchanged.  If they were all like that I would have asked for a refund and shopped elsewhere.  Although they do have some pretty good (cheap) machines and sometimes not worth taking home.  I did get a AMT 6" stationary belt sander which was years ago that is still working.  Never know.

[OlJarhead]

There are certain items I will buy that are made in China.  They are cheap and seem to work.  For example, I have a Champion 3500 watt generator that just keeps on going.  I think I bought it in 2007 but it might have been '08 and with little to no maintenance and a ton of abuse that $300 cheapo genny has been faithful.

I also bought a compressor and nail gun from Harbor Freight -- china made.

Both work.

On the other hand, I know I'm taking a risk, a big one, and I won't buy a drill (I was once given one and it lasted 7 days....yes 7 days), saw or other similar item.  They just can't seem to make them.

I also don't buy hand tools from them.

Sadly, however, it's getting harder and harder to buy American made.

[Whitlock]

I have bought form them and most stuff broke (mostly hand tools).
It might not be China's falt.
Dad would all ways say "son you could brake a steel ball if I let you play with it long enough"
I do my tool shopping now at yard sells.
Even most of  the new Craftsman stuff is junk.


  Good luck,Whitlock

[Gary O]

There are certain items I will buy that are made in China.  They are cheap and seem to work.  For example, I have a Champion 3500 watt generator that just keeps on going.  I think I bought it in 2007 but it might have been '08 and with little to no maintenance and a ton of abuse that $300 cheapo genny has been faithful.

I bought that same generator, Erik, and it's a horse. Not the quietest tool in the shed, but pretty faithful, 'cept that one time I forgot I'd closed the fuel valve....darn near pulled my guts out before a dim light went on.

Couple other items was a tiny pneumatic grinder at the throw away price of $6.95...threw it away.
The other was a nail gun that I was quite happy with until I used one made by Ridgid...big difference.
OK, one other time I bought a bench mount drill press (use one about twice a year) to replace a cheap ($100) Craftsman that'd smoked...sealed brushes. HFT had the very same one....different color/handles...$37.
Most times I just buy tarps and shop towels at HFT.

O to be a millwright....with a machine shop.....and patience.
Well played Jay, well played.

[Gary O]

"Even most of  the new Craftsman stuff is junk."

  Yeah, gotta find the where made label for sure these days....broke my heart to find out Gerber Blades are now made in China....and Kershaw too.
Bought a coffee cup with all kinds of Oregon attractions on it, a last minute gift for the visiting president of a medium sized north China mfg. Before purchasing, I made sure it wasn't made in China.
While wrapping it I removed the Fred Meyer price tag, revealing made in China, fired into the ceramic.
So there I was, feverishly grinding off the made in China marks with my made in China bench grinder, for my made in China business contact, and here I am tapping away on my Emachines keyboard...of which is made in China...........and seem to have just developed a strange hankerin' for some Mongolian BBQ...... now where's my sticks

[Whitlock]

We need to get Glenn on here he loves HF.
I think he owns 4 or 5 of every thing they make

Now to find that tread about a cabin I built it has to be here somewhere

[MushCreek]

There are certain things I like from HF. The big red rolling tool boxes at $400 are great- I have two of them. Believe it or not, they work much better than my trusty old Kennedy! I've got a bunch of the cheap multi-meters they have on sale, and they work well, too. The saw was a risk, but a new American-made saw is in the thousands of dollars. I always keep my eyes open for an old Johnson or Kalamazoo to rebuild- a real saw, not a toy.

Sadly, there simply aren't any American options for a lot of tools. All of the pro-grade Milwaukee tools I've bought in recent years are made in China.

[rick91351]

Makes little difference where something is made.  It is the crappy parts and materials stuff is made from of course.  Garbage in garbage out.  We imported from China directly hand made rosewood furniture.  Ellen and I even worked in the plant for a week.  Great high end product.  Or you could go down the street and fill a container for one third to a quarter of what what our cost was at the time.  Now because of price increases lumber and labor I understand it way more now in favor of the cheap crap than it was then.  The little furniture factory is still cranking out its high end goods however the last we heard.         

I use to get so fired up when they were stripping the jobs from here in America.  How many times did I hear the talking heads say,  "The American worker could or would not produce quality well made goods and more."?  This use to and still does steam me so bad.  The American worker or Chinese worker or German worker only produces the the quality they are given to produce.  If crap comes in on the receiving pallets and skids, chances are crap is leaving the factory the same way it comes in only repackaged.       

[Gary O]

There are certain things I like from HF. The big red rolling tool boxes at $400 are great- I have two of them. Believe it or not, they work 

Sadly, there simply aren't any American options for a lot of tools. All of the pro-grade Milwaukee tools I've bought in recent years are made in China.

  I wondered about those rolling chests.

Yeah, those $4 multi-meters are hard to resist. Bought some for our production areas. But labeled 'em 'FOR REFERENCE ONLY'.



Yeah, about the only manufacturer that hasn't sold out is Stihl, and that may be a matter of time. Well, crap, I just Googled Stihl.......

I've been dealing with China and the rest of Asia for over 20 yrs, and manufacturing is beginning to turn back this way. Not sure which economic reason (or reasons) has catalyzed it, but I feel that US industry has begun keeping inventories low, and are willing to pay the price to do so, at least for custom applications. I know our company is seeing that, as long lost customers are drifting back, and we're getting their RFQs (quotes requests) and a sprinkling of orders...it's good to be on the print....and willing to keep the material pipeline full (insignificant lead times for them is huge)....that's where I come in....it's also good to have a Ouija board along with the smoke and mirrors.
Mexico is starting to see this too, as they have always been strong in large items (logistics, prohibitive freight costs from Asia), and played hard in the '90s, with maquiladoras lining the border.
However, I still plan on learning to make cheese and wine, so I can sell them to my Asian friends along with my vacation packages to sunny central Oregon.
Note to self: ask Erik about his cheese process
Other note: learn the art of relabeling 2 buck chuck (two can play this game)

[peternap]

I like HF stuff. I buy the warranties, especially on the gas engine things. If it lasts a year and 11 months, I take it back and buy a new warranty. Perpetual new stuff.

[MushCreek]

I work in a production shop, plastic injection molding. We've about doubled our annual gross in the last two years, after a decade of relatively flat growth. We get a lot of customers now that want to do business here, locally. There's nothing like getting a container of useless junk to make a company want to do business closer to home.

[Gary O]

Yeah, I never fully understood why a lot of molding went to Asia (automation vs automation), but do understand why tooling did, and now days their tooling has greatly improved (shots per tool life).
Quality of China product? Depends on who's runnin' the show. Back in the late 80's little companies like ours lived and died by the ability of their brokers, as English speaking personnel were non-existent at factories.
Now, anyone can deal directly, and (I suppose from internal competition) quality has made some strides in the last 10 years.

I'd like to agree with peternap and (I hear) Glenn, because those HFT prices are nigh on to ridiculous, but I got bit from a couple purchases back when they first came to Portland.......I know things have changed, and that warranty is quite attractive.

Now, since I can't adhere to a 30 day old quote (material prices soaring daily over there) I have to get fresh quotes every time I purchase from China.

The playing field is becoming level.

Where next, Africa?

[rick91351]

There's nothing like getting a container of useless junk to make a company want to do business closer to home.

It was interesting the people we partnered with on the rosewood furniture approached us wanting to know if we might want to go in a some paintings like the ones sold by Starving Artists like those big sofa paintings and front room paintings  Beautiful mountains and scenic scenes.  This was to be split with a half container of wicker furniture and some pottery filled out with these paintings.  We decided to oft out.

They made the buying trip and pulled the paintings they wanted.  They were bundled and put on pallets.  Our rep was there when they loaded into the container.  When they got here and they opened them up.  It was nothing like they pulled.  There was a switch some where.  They got a hold of them and they said it was okay because they would adjust it the next order.  They told them there would be no next order because they would be out of business trying to get rid of that order this was junk and garbage.  Oh thank you very, very much we adjust it the next order.  Thank you!       

[Gary O]

It was interesting the people we partnered with on the rosewood furniture approached us wanting to know if we might want to go in a some paintings like the ones sold by Starving Artists like those big sofa paintings and front room paintings  Beautiful mountains and scenic scenes.  This was to be split with a half container of wicker furniture and some pottery filled out with these paintings.  We decided to oft out.

They made the buying trip and pulled the paintings they wanted.  They were bundled and put on pallets.  Our rep was there when they loaded into the container.  When they got here and they opened them up.  It was nothing like they pulled.  There was a switch some where.  They got a hold of them and they said it was okay because they would adjust it the next order.  They told them there would be no next order because they would be out of business trying to get rid of that order this was junk and garbage.  Oh thank you very, very much we adjust it the next order.  Thank you!       

Hey Rick, Did they prepay, or do a letter of credit, or have open acct?
The toughie is getting an open acct, but just about as tough is a letter of credit without a good logistics broker on this side, of course prepay is a self inflicted stab in the stomach.......

[rick91351]

Gary this was five or six years ago.  Our companies business license and DBA and all that lapsed at that time when our partners moved to Thailand.  We we were using Expediters or a brokerage house of theirs to handle that.  Plus we were braking in a new guy in China.  He now has his own company and is doing very well last we contacted him.  He however at the time was just a real neat young guy that was way in over his head.  Last I talked to his rep here in the states we talked a little about a tourist / tour guide service here for people wanting to come to the States.  I was thinking handling people here to Hong Kong over to Shenzhen, Guangdong.  Hit at high points of Hong Kong / Kowloon.  Then take the ferry over and stay at Mission Hills and the guys play the 120 hole golf course while the wives get pampered in the spas and hit the shopping centers there.  Fill a container if they want to and ship it to Portland or Seattle.   

Will PM you more if I get more in to this.  This is sort of retirement brain fart.   Plus I love Hong Kong.... really Kowloon.             

[firefox]

I was in and out of there in the late 60's. I bought a pachenco machine for my wife and had it shipped to the states ok. I remember buying it in what they refered to as the ferry building.
But I don't remember the exact name, I think you probably know Rick.
Bruce

[rick91351]

Star Ferry Terminal?  Fairly near close to the historic The Peninsula Hotel where the British and Japanese signed the armistice at the end of the war in the Pacific.  Last time I was there the Star Ferry Terminal was the last place in Hong Kong you could get your picture taken on a rickshaw.  You paid the man, climbed in, or on, he pulled you a bout 20 feet maybe.  You got off, he shoved it back and handed you a picture proving you rode a rickshaw in Hong Kong.  He took all types of currency.  Not just Hong Kong. 

Or if you are talking the little walk on ferry shuttles over to Hong Kong from Kowloon.  There are some shops over there as well.  I never knew what they called that other than the Hong Kong Shuttles.  Cost you 20 cents at the time US.  NO!! change!!! if you gave them a quarter.  Okay no change.  NO!!  CHANGE!!

So it would guess the Star Ferry Terminal is that you are thinking.  Very historic and key to the city.

If you want to go back, PM me and I can line you out with a hotel very close to the Peninsula  It has a great house restaurant and buffets and way, way cheaper than the Peninsula min $500 a night room rate.  Harbor view is climbing up there now from what I have been told.  I will warn you however you will stay up all night looking the boat and ship traffic.

Did you ever do Delaney's Pub?  Irish Pub that has been there since forever.  Great Corned Beef, I don't know how the beer is.  I gave that up a long time ago a lot of the people I go with however give it a thumbs up.  It is not a copy, nor one tore down and moved from Ireland.                     

[Windpower]

This is worth a listen about Chinese factories (link at bottom)

When too many Foxconn factory workers were commiting suicide by jumping from the building they put up nets to catch them.

Wife just bought 3 lamps and a digital scale from Bed Bath and Beyond
Score:
Digital scale at least 15 pounds off and non repeatable -- junk
Lamp 1    missing 1 major part, light bulb would not light, cross threaded pole
Lamp 2    OK but poor paint quality
Lamp 3    Base warped, threads on shade bracket stripped

At least we didn't buy one of the radioactive tissue holders that contained Cobalt 60


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/454/mr-daisey-and-the-apple-factory

[rick91351]

Windpower I can not agree more.  But the factory I / we did business with was a hand made rosewood furniture factory.  It was there in the family before the revolution and came back post revolution.  Ellen my wife and I worked in that factory for a week.  We still have friends that work in and out out of that factory for orders.  Mr. Chen is now dead and his son is the owner designer.  Things are still much the same, only more safety minded.  OSHA would have just chained the door.  Key here is and why we used it.  They were craftsmen.  You can not slave labor craftsmen and still receive quality.  People there the carvers and finishers were very up beat and worked well with us.     

We also visited and toured two wicker factories, one much the same as rosewood factory.  Had full contact with their employees with our own guy - in fact two -  one a graduate of the University of Oregon that lives in Macau and the other was the fore mentioned young guy in earlier post.  Their employees were very satisfied working there.  In that area labor was so short in the wicker industry they again could not afford to mess with labor.  The lady that owned it was very informative and answered all our questions very well.  Her husband was a designer and loved to garden the landscape.  We did  not require the volume they required we never were able to reach an agreement.  The other place was okay but their employees were troubled.

But I know that forced labor occurs in China.  One trip up north we did not like what we saw, we were very restricted from employees.  We never placed any orders there at all.  This huge new industrial town near Shenzen just gave us the real creeps.....  They made Hoby Lobby, Pottery Barn, Walmart type stuff.  Way out of our market we were looking for anyway but would never done anything there. 

Same breath do not think stuff like forced labor is non existent here as well.  And over the border in Mexico.       

[Gary O]

Well, gee, back in the late 80s they just killed family members if product was screwed up, or so I was told by our broker (Taiwanese).
Seems things have changed a bit.

I s'pose there are still echelons of work forces, but at the turn of the century, families would pay 3000 rmb ($300 usd) to get to have a member work in a factory, and yes, they'd be treated like dogs, living in barracks I wouldn't put my dog in, and paid very little, of which they would faithfully send back to the family.
Not sure if board and room was a company store situation, but they sure didn't have much to send home.

I don't think I'd be a jumper, but maybe a pusher if a boss got a bit too brutal............

[firefox]

Hi Rick, Yes, that was it "Star Ferry Terminal". I remember frequenting a bar which had a branch in HK as well as on the Kowloon side where the brits hung out. I used to stock up on
guiness stout there. Can't remember the name off hand but it was a well know pub.
It might have been called waltzing Matilda, but that is a wild guess.

I remember someone there talking about the upcoming end of the lease for Hong Kong in the
following year.

I remember landing on  this airstrip that sticks out over the harbor. Came in on a PanAm
flight with a single digit flight number I  think.

I'd love to take my wife there , but can't really afford it now.

Bruce

[Windpower]

The "Mr Daisey and the Apple factory" in the link is quite entertaining as well a an eye opener. He went to Shenzen, a city purpose-built to be a factory center for Western companies. I think he said the population was 13 million

He gained access to the workers by pretending to be a buyer of the factory's products -- this is how he got tours of the factories

He said what amazed him was how quiet it was -- everthing is done by hand and there is no talking

through his interpreter (outside the gates) they would line up to talk to him

he asked one question and always got the same answer

How would you change Foxconn to make it better (for you) ?

every one said the same thing



I never thought of that question-- I don't know

very sad

Rick, Gary--  It is nice to know there are some decent places to work over there

I have been to Taiwan (my step son lives there) -- they seem to be driven to make a better life for their families -- very hard working people

[Windpower]

I remember landing on  this airstrip that sticks out over the harbor. Came in on a PanAm
flight with a single digit flight number I  think.

To bad you could have had the "fun" of landing at Kai Tak

[embed=425,349]http://youtu.be/OtnL4KYVtDE[/embed]

[firefox]

Yep, That's the one. Never knew the name though, but I sure do remember the strip!
The first time down, I was sure we were going in for a swim.
Bruce