A 24'x18' straw bale lodge

[glenn kangiser]

to the forum, PureCountry.  Drew is more fun than a barrel of monkeys.  Looking forward to hearing of your project too.

We know you do stuff there, Drew, but how come we only see Dan working? hmm

[PureCountry]

Wiseman say, "Only train workers to work, not run camera."

[Drew]

But, but, but, I'm Management! 

Funny, you don't think of taking a picture when you've nailed the last of 20 post caps, but put one of those things in the air and it's a Kodak moment!  Besides, I think Dan looks better in the picture than me anyway.  Well, except for my boots, maybe.

Welcome to the forum, PureCountry.  And congratulations/good luck on getting your field certified!  The more we offer grass-fed options to the market, the better off we are in terms of environmental awareness, food security for our local community, and better margins for our ranchers.  Yeah, I'm preaching to the choir, but that's why we come to church, right?   

Most of my neighbors graze cows for the C.A.F.O.s and do it on 20-60 acre parcels.  Some I suspect might not be covering costs when you factor in winter hay bought on a "just-in-time" basis at $9+ per bale.  I think some do it to keep the grass down for fire protection.  One of them sells his beeves direct to consumers.  It's not a full time thing, but he loves it.  Best of all, he has an actual stable where I can collect manure when we start planting.

We let one neighbor's cattle out on our western end one year.  He kept them there through the rains, so the area is really pugged.  It ticks Dan off big time because it can be hard to walk on.  Maybe I can strike a deal and let them come through in the summer.  Yeah.  Put that on the list...

Anyway, I'm still without gainful employment (When your neighbor is out of work, its a recession.  When you are out of work it's a depression.), so I'm going to go up to the farm tonight and start work early tomorrow morning.  I'll try to get a picture of my sweaty, burned mug.  Maybe that man-eating steer can hold the camera.

[PureCountry]

Just a thought, with your climate, it's difficult for me to imagine the months you refer to as 'winter', as actually that, in comparison to ours. You get accustomed to things being a certain way, right? So, that said, why are they buying hay to feed their cattle? With proper management of their pastures, they could keep enough grass 'banked'(loose term) to graze them through the winter months, and not be dependent on $9 bales, $5 fuel, and $?? for equipment maintenance, depreciation, interest on investment, to say nothing for personal time and labor. Just my thoughts. We used to feed cows 200 days a year when I was a kid. When I took over the ranch, I starting making changes. Big ones. We run 275 cows, and don't own a tractor. The cows are supposed to work for us, not the other way around, as the saying goes.

So, anyhooooo, now that I've hijacked a thread.........have to ask, is your house, er, straw bale lodge up off the ground for a reason?

[glenn kangiser]

Self timer, Drew -- that should do it.

[Drew]

Okay, Glenn.  Here's a picture of me.



Working?  Hmm.  That'll be harder.

PureCountry, I know what you're talking about.  I don't want to second guess my neighbors' business, but I agree with you and would probably do things differently.  No one does grass management in small paddocks that I can see.  Most of the pastures around me are 20 acres.  Some have more than one.  Few have barns. None seem to grow hay, cut it, and rake it into covered windrows.  I think what's happening is we have folks who have off-farm jobs and keep some livestock as hobby farming.  Nothing wrong with that as long as your livestock isn't stressed.

BTW, Joel Salatin from Polyface Farms came out to talk at Point Reyes Station last year.  I shook his hand and he signed my books.  When I was a kid my heroes were rock stars.  Now they're farmers.  Go figure.

Anyway, I drove my unemployed fundament up to the farm and put some work in on the place Wednesday and today.  I was by myself on Wednesday but the Old Man came out today.  I got the rafter brackets on the beams and we set them in place today.



We marked, cut, and placed one "vanity rafter" to see how ti would go.  Our math was good but I flipped a birds mouth and a plumb cut.  Must have been tired.  I'll get to fix it next time.

Dan and I are going up on Saturday to true it all up and put in the rest of the posts and cross braces (There will be 20 posts in all).  The rafters will go in once we're all trued up.

Hey, Glenn.  I'm going to use stucco over chicken wire on the bales.  The bales will butt right up against the posts.  Do I want to flash or house wrap the posts before I apply stucco?  I'll staple the chicken wire to the posts first, but I would like to have a strong tie in to the bales and stucco.  Your opinion?

PureCountry, we decided to go with post and beam construction to avoid a slab foundation.  I don't have the skills to pour one and I wanted to avoid the cost.  We don't have frost heave so it was a viable option for us.

[Redoverfarm]

Glenn I think this is an imposter as I don't see the skimpy biking suit or the cowboy boots either. 

[considerations]

This thread is really fun to keep track of.  I think straw bale construction is fascinating.  I've heard of folks trying it in Western Washington, but I didn't have the sand to try it myself. 

Good for you! 

[glenn kangiser]

I agree, John.  The last time we saw a picture of Drew, I'm sure the boots were much more pointed and he was dressed for success.  These look like working man boots...except for being up on the table.  Very manly tread there, Drew.  I am going to get Vibram soles on my next shoes.

BTW, you are looking well, Drew.  Hard work must agree with you.

Hey, Glenn.  I'm going to use stucco over chicken wire on the bales.  The bales will butt right up against the posts.  Do I want to flash or house wrap the posts before I apply stucco?  I'll staple the chicken wire to the posts first, but I would like to have a strong tie in to the bales and stucco.  Your opinion?

The posts should be fine as they will be dry -- If your bales get wet you have problems anyway.  As I remember and it looks like from the pix that the posts are inside the row of bales.

For a good tie - how about galvanized barb wire stapled with big fence staples or screwed to the posts and brought through the bales to the outside chicken wire to be threaded in to it or wired on or even clipped on with hog rings.  Leave plenty of extra - maybe a foot or two to catch in the outside stucco.

You may want to mask the posts to keep cement off of them if you are worried about it.

[Drew]

I like the idea about the barbed wire, Glenn.  I even have some left over from some fencing we did.

You're right.  This is a "bale wrap" design with the roof being borne by the frame, not the bales.  The posts are on the inside.  I'm concerned about the axiom where we flash when we change materials (stucco to wood in this case). So it sounds like its not a problem on the inside, and my only concern would be splashing stucco on my pretty posts, right?  I envision laying stucco on the internal walls to half the depth of the posts (covering the outboard-nailed cross braces).  I can mask the posts while I'm trowling to serve as a guide and to keep the posts clean, then remove the masking when I'm done.  But the stucco will come in contact with the posts and cross braces.  Is that what you're talking about?

While working yesterday I got a call from a headhunter about another contract they want to submit me for.  Given the way these folks operate I'll have another week or so if I get the contract.  Dan and I are going back up tonight.  Today it's chores around the house I won't want to do Sunday.

And those are tactical boots, supposedly the same kind SWAT officers wear.  They keep the snakes off and are good at kicking lumber into place.  The hat comes from CCOF.  Yeah, I'm trying to get my butt kicked for Christmas.

[glenn kangiser]

I don't have any worries about where dry concrete and wood come together. 

The barb wire can tie the braces and everything into the stucco and bales if you like.

G/L on the job.  We'll be watching.

[ScottA]

They also have barbless wire. Same as barbed just without the barbs. Might be easier to work with.

[glenn kangiser]

The barbs help with the reinforcement - stops a bit of the slipping, although the barbless is twisted.  He'll probably get Dan to do it anyway.

[Drew]

Dan says, "I always do all the work anyway..."

Aaanyway, we had a really productive day at the farm today.  We got almost half the rafters in and most, if not all (more on that later) of the posts.  Here's a picture.



We hung a tarp over the rafters we did to give us a little shade.  Until then we'd run under the floor to get out of the sun for a bit.



There I am knockin' back the Pelagrino like it was water.

There's still some cross bracing and the rest of the rafters and nails to put in.  I also get to do the door and window bucks and do the flashing on the bale base.  I'm planning to go back up and work on it Wednesday and Thursday to get us ready for finishing the rafters on Sunday.

I'm hoping to finish before the permit expires (minor concern) and the rains come (major concern). I'll put together a plan for protecting the bales if I don't have the place dried in before the rain comes, but I'd rather just be done.

Hey, I have another question for you learned folks.  In my design I have four more posts to support the front and back beams at the ends.  They will come  to about 2' from the end of the beam.  Here's a picture of what I have without the post at the top...



And the bottom...



I have the same thing at all four corners.

As you can see, without the post I would have about 4' of unsupported 2x8 rafters on 24" centers (i.e., one more in the middle and one more on the end - I haven't put the rafters in yet.).  With the post I would have support in the middle under the rafter that is not on the end.  That would leave only 2' unsupported.  My question is this:  Do I need that post or can I let that 4' section of 4"x6" beam stay unsupported? 

I could do a cross brace.  I would prefer not putting in the post because I would have to notch the bales at every corner.

So waddaya think?

[glenn kangiser]

I don't think it is a problem, Drew.  You don't have a snow load there do you?

A 45'd diagonal brace at the top like you have at the bottom would help.  I'm speaking as a guy who does stuff without asking if that's of any use as regards to the quality of my advice.

Nice pix, Drew.  Looking very countrified.

[glenn kangiser]

...and, great progress too, Drew.

[Redoverfarm]

Drew if it were mine I would do the 45 brace.  But what do I know.  Here anything in a bale we feed to the cows or spread it in the barn for them to lay on. 

[glenn kangiser]

People don't live in bales in WV, John? hmm

[Redoverfarm]

No if it is not pallet houses it is barns. If not that they usually find a cave. No that's not right that is where they put their still's.  Anyway I don't recall seeing anyone building with them on a permanent basis. 

[ScottA]

Drew I'm just a dumb plumber looking at this but what sort of bracing will you use to give shear support to the walls? Will the bales and stucko do it? I can't imagine those little angle braces at the bottoms of the posts being enough to meet code.

[Drew]

Hi ScottA,

The bales will be tied into the posts and the stucco will go over the bales and posts.  I have the numbers in a notebook, but the stucco provides plenty of shear support.

Dumb plumber.  That's funny.  I remember standing in the hardware store looking for parts for my irrigation timing system.  3/4" MIPT to 5/8" FIPT with a hose and a MILF, and a, oh man...  That rafter I screwed up puts in stark relief my weakness in spatial perception.  Right.  Left.  Male to female transitions.  And this is just the basic stuff. 

I just finished soldering a charge controller cable for my PV cell and Xentrex battery.  The PV cell charges the battery just fine, but drains it once the sun gets low.  Now I've added the controller and it won't do that.  Little by little we improve our lot.

I'm planning the work for Wednesday and Thursday.  I'm going to do the drip sill work John R showed me some months ago.  Well, at least part of it since the flashing is on order.  I'm also going to build the window and door bucks.  I also have my aluminum tape for the irrigation line risers.  There's also a few hundred nails I can pound in but I might wait for Dave on Sunday for most of them.  Plenty to do.

[glenn kangiser]

You have some weird plumbing fittings there Drew but I'll bet they come in real handy sometimes.

[considerations]

I've come to the conclusion that its not the act of plumbing I don't like.  Its all the trips back to the store to get the "right' part, again and again and again.....

[MountainDon]

I've come to the conclusion that its not the act of plumbing I don't like.  Its all the trips back to the store to get the "right' part, again and again and again.....

Part of the problem many folks run into with plumbing is first knowing what fittings are readily available. It also helps to understand the difference between pipe threads, compression fittings and flare fittings, plus the different types of glueable pipes. Add in PEX and it does get interesting at times. I always find it helpful to draw out schematic drawings.

[glenn kangiser]

I do them in my head -- even correct previous plumbers mistakes  in my head (left -right- hot -cold).

You don't want to go there though.  It's a scary place.

In all fairness though, I do make notes of necessary parts when going through my mental drawings.  I just completed re-plumbing an entire house where the water was eating the copper - down to paper thin and cracking.  Going to be replacing the rotted floor, joists  - wall openings etc. next.