Arizona's new illegal alien law.....

[peternap]

Hi Des!
Good to see you back..

[peternap]

I have to ask this..

I don't like the flood of Mexicans but for the life of me, I can't come up with a solid reason why. My first thought is that we're going to be up to our armpits in them soon.
They feed off of the system.
They talk funny.

But then we (including me) said the same thing about the Viet Nam and Cambodian refugees and every race and nationality that's immigrated to date. I expect the Indians said the same thing when my Ancestors came here.

Logic says there has to be a compromise. My bigoted side says differently though. I wonder which side is right?

[glenn kangiser]

I trust them more to watch my back --- carry their half of the load working with me than white dopers that are becoming so prevalent.... or people of any race that work while impaired.  I guess I just say that because a white stoner hit me in the shin with a sledge hammer after his "lunch break" in his van.

The paperwork is a bit of a complication.  Most of the Mexicans I work with are first generation legal ones though. 

I have no problem with good people of any race.

Funny.  I am living on a Mexican Land Estate sold to John C. Fremont.  This was their property at the time of the gold rush.

[Redoverfarm]

I have tried for years to erase my bias thinking regarding discrimination and at this point of my life I think I have accomplished it to a degree that is acceptable to me.  I have nothing against someone wanting to better themselves by migrating to our country IF and that is the word that seperates my thoughts being that IF they conduct themselves in a manner that our country was founded on, IF they contribute to the betterment of our nation, IF they work and become a productive individual , IF they become a citizen and only then will they recieve the benefits that they are entitled to.  I feel that our nation needs to take care of every individual that meets these ( mind set requirements) and only then should they be compensated.  There are so many US citizens ( those who for their lifetime) have worked for our nations and are being left out so that some ( not US citizens)  may be compensated because they "are just here" and have no job and offer no contribution.  Am I still a biggot?  OK I will step down from my soap box now.

[glenn kangiser]

I don't have a problem with that, John, but lets export all of the worthless trash of all nationalities including our own that will not work, steal from those that do, graffiti and destroy property of others and are a drain on the system no matter what nationality.

The system design is such that many of those who get benefits designed to help those in great need, are punished if they do anything to help themselves so many will not even try to get off of life support.  

Most of that is not a genuine desire not to help themselves but rather a desire to be taken care of without lifting a finger to help themselves.  The supporters of the system are their enablers.

Those that are truly worth having here will use the system as designed when they are down, as a step to get back up then get off of it.  I have no problem with them.

[desdawg]

Hi Guys,
I don't have much problem with hispanic people. I have lived and worked among them here for quite some time. The problems I encountered came mostly from ones that were born and raised right here in AZ. They seem to develop attitudes. Some not all. I have become friends with some of the people that I hired and couldn't have asked for better workers. I ran into a couple of guys on the quad trail a while back inside the Barry Goldwater Bombing Range.They had been deported to Mexico on a Tuesday and by Sunday afternoon had walked about 200 miles to where I saw them. One said he had lived here for 25 years. He had been stopped for speeding and something about his documentation wasn't right. He had a wife and family in Eloy, AZ. These guys were dehydrated and worn out. I gave them some water and called his wife so she could find him. They are human beings just like we are after all.

[bayview]

Peternap:
   To start with:
   - The financial drain on the "system".   Often without paying any taxes.
   - Overcrowding of schools.
   - Hospitals overburdened.   Hospitals are obligated to treat the uninsured without reimbursement.
   - Jail overcrowding.   Major felonies including murder and rape. . .
   - American workers are left underemployed, unemployed.
   - Health threats.   
   - Diseased undocumented workers in the food industry.   (Harvesting and preparing) 
   - Possible terrorism.   http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24987
   - "Anchor babies"
   - Overpopulation.
   - Drug smuggling.
   - Crowded highways.   Traffic violations.   Including drunken driving.
   - Environmental issues.   (Vandalizing the border states with trash and human waste.)
   - Etc, Etc, Etc . . .

   Besides that, they are in violation of U.S. law.   They are here ILLEGALLY.

   Illegal's come here from just about every country.   But, the majority are from Latin America and Mexico.   Its hypocritical that Mexico feels that it is acceptable for its citizens to migrate to the U.S.   But submits harsh punishments for people entering its own country.   Maybe they should practice what they preach.

   I found it amusing that the illegal's were self-deporting from Arizona just before its immigration laws were to be enacted.   Illegal's would self-deport if there were no social services, or employment opportunities.   

Glenn:
   You're right.   Social benefits are being given to people besides illegal's that rarely deserve them.

   It "warmed" my heart when our neighbor had all four generations under one roof . . .    The grandmother (in her thirties) was pleased that her mother (great-grandmother) was able to visit.   Her daughter of 16 just had a child.   The grandmother, daughter and grandchild all live together.   How wonderful that the great-grandmother was able to visit.   Four generations under one roof . . .   All on welfare.   

   There is a difference between a helping hand and a hand-out.

/

[glenn kangiser]

I also have seen that one before, Bayview.

Des, I have noticed the problem with second and third generation.  The illegals are many times better than ones influenced by our enabling socialist entitlement policies.

[Woodsrule]

Bayview: to support your post I offer this bit of anecdotal evidence. I have quite a few Spanish friends who have emigrated legally, and without exception they are against illegal aliens. These folks are very peeved about the situation that has occurred on the southern border because they feel that illegals there have turned many of the states into something they have left - countries that are failures. Oh, and for the record, here in New England we have a bit of trouble with illegal aliens from Somalia, Ireland and other African countries. It's not just confined to folks of Spanish descent.

[bayview]

   It really peeves me when I have friends in home construction that are without work.   While their illegal counterparts are working.   Not paying taxes.   Sending money "home".   Their families on Medicaid and other social programs.

   Meanwhile the rest of us have to pay federal, state, social security and self-employment taxes.   It amounts to about ½ of what we make.   Sure, we could give our customers a break if we didn't have any expenses.   

   Why not even the playing field . . .

Quoting Kathy McKee:
http://www.theamericanresistance.com/articles/art2004jan04.html

   Illegal aliens are NOT doing work Americans won't do. What jobs won't Americans do? In most states, Americans still clean their own houses, do their own landscaping, clean hotel rooms, work in restaurants and fast food places, paint houses, DO CONSTRUCTION WORK, work in airports, etc. - just like we have the past 200 years before "our" government allowed these people to invade our country. There are 18 million Americans who cannot find a job, so illegal aliens who are coming here to work do so at peril to American workers.

   Consumers are NOT benefiting from lower labor costs. Again, it's CEOs and business owners who benefit from taxpayer subsidies for their illegal alien workers.

/

[Sassy]

CNSNews.com
Arizona Sheriff: 'Our Own Government Has Become Our Enemy'
Monday, August 02, 2010
By Penny Starr, Senior Staff Writer


Pinal County (Ariz.) Sheriff Paul Babeu


(CNSNews.com) – Pinal County (Ariz.) Sheriff Paul Babeu is hopping mad at the federal government.

Babeu told CNSNews.com that rather than help law enforcement in Arizona stop the hundreds of thousands of people who come into the United States illegally, the federal government is targeting the state and its law enforcement personnel.

"What's very troubling is the fact that at a time when we in law enforcement and our state need help from the federal government, instead of sending help they put up billboard-size signs warning our citizens to stay out of the desert in my county because of dangerous drug and human smuggling and weapons and bandits and all these other things and then, behind that, they drag us into court with the ACLU," Babeu said.

The sheriff was referring to the law suits filed by the American Civil Liberties Union and the U.S. Department of Justice challenging the state's new immigration law.

"So who has partnered with the ACLU?" Babeu said in a telephone interview with CNSNews.com. "It's the president and (Attorney General) Eric Holder himself. And that's simply outrageous."

Last week, U.S. District Judge Susan Bolton placed a temporary injunction on portions of the bill that allowed law enforcement personnel during the course of a criminal investigation who have probable cause to think an individual is in the country illegally to check immigration status. The state of Arizona filed an appeal on Thursday with the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.

"Our own government has become our enemy and is taking us to court at a time when we need help," Babeu said.

Babeu and Sheriff Larry Dever of Cochise County Ariz., spoke by phone with CNSNews.com last week about the May 17 ACLU class-action lawsuit, which charges the law uses racial profiling and named the county attorneys and sheriffs in all 15 Arizona counties as defendants. The Department of Justice filed a lawsuit on July 6, charging the Arizona law preempted the federal government's sole right to enforce immigration law.

"If the president would do his job and secure the border; send 3,000 armed soldiers to the Arizona border and stop the illegal immigration and the drug smuggling and the violence, we wouldn't even be in this position and where we're forced to take matters into our own hands," Babeu said.
Dever said the federal government's failure to secure the border and its current thwarting of Arizona's effort to control illegal immigration within its borders has implications for the entire country.


"The bigger picture is while what's going on in Arizona is critically important, what comes out of this and happens here will affect our entire nation in terms of our ability to protect our citizenry from a very serious homeland security threat," Dever said. "People who are coming across the border in my county aren't staying there. They're going everywhere USA and a lot of them are bad, bad people."

According to U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP), about 250,000 people were detained in Arizona in the last 12 months for being in the country illegally. Babeu said that that number only reflects the number of people detained and that thousands more enter the country illegally each year.

The CBP also reports that 17 percent of those detained already have a criminal record in the United States.

Both Babeu and Dever said they want to remain involved in the legal battle over the law, which many experts predict will end up being decided by the U.S. Supreme Court.

Dever has hired an independent attorney to represent him in the ACLU case and his attorney has already filed a motion of intervention in the DOJ lawsuit so the "(Dever) will have a seat at the table."

A Web site also has been launched by the non-profit, Iowa-based Legacy Foundation to raise money for the Babeu's and Dever's legal defense.

Both men said they believe the outcome of the case has national significance."For us, this is a public safety matter and a national security threat," Babeu said.

[MushCreek]

I want to know why we have to accommodate the hispanics (or anybody)? All of the other ethnic groups that came here over the last 200 years mostly went through legal channels, and worked their butts off to become AMERICANS. Why do we see all of the signs in stores in English and in Spanish? Why not Italian? Or Swedish? German?  What makes them so special? America is a great country, formed from people all over the world, but I think it's dangerous to cater to one group. LEARN ENGLISH!

[muldoon]

mush, I can think of a few cities with "chinatowns" where all the signs are in chisese or vietnamese.  san jose has a japantown section.  people cater to hispanics because it is a large demographic, especially in parts of the country where they are prevalent.  here in Houston I frequently notice that for every 10 cars I see on the freeway or road, 8 of them are hispanic.  they are catered to because they have cash.  americans these days mostly have credit cards that get declined.  those mexicans pay in cash. 

[StinkerBell]

So......As I read through this thread and have added my comments. I have come to the definitive conclusion we must abolish the Federal income tax and go to a national sales tax. Thus, everyone is contributing to the system and the argument and the burden of un documented individuals would be less of a drain on the system.

I really think that is the right direction to go.

[desdawg]

Good stuff here. I live in Pinal County and have met Sheriff Paul Babeu.
He seems to be a pretty right thinking guy at least by my standards. We are Facebook Friends
I imagine this controversy will go on for some time to come. I hesitate to stereotype and paint everyone with the same brush. There are valid arguments against the illegal migration and I certainly don't support it. It has gone on for a long time which makes it more difficult to suddenly try to reverse it now.
When I enter the Goldwater Range I have to call and let the security folks know that I am going in and then call again and check out when I am done. They ask where I am entering from and when I told the guy I was coming in from the Vekol Valley he commented that that was where the deputy was shot a while back. I said I knew that but based on where I lived that is where I would be coming from. he Goldwater Range is over a million acres and stretches from the Vekol Valley to Yuma and from near I-8 to the border. It is a huge expanse of Vacant Land that is only used to train pilots and is a natural corridor for the foot track from the South. I have only just begun to explore over there.
We used to have some mule deer in our area and with the huge influx of people they disappeared  and I suspect that is where the moved to. I want to find out this next winter ( it is too darned hot right now for me to want to risk riding out there currently)

[bayview]

So......As I read through this thread and have added my comments. I have come to the definitive conclusion we must abolish the Federal income tax and go to a national sales tax. Thus, everyone is contributing to the system and the argument and the burden of un documented individuals would be less of a drain on the system.

I really think that is the right direction to go.

   Of course, the illegal's on Welfare-Social Services or illegal's in prison wouldn't have to worry about a national tax. . .

   A national tax still wouldn't send undocumented workers illegal's back to their home country.

   And what about the American that lost his job because a illegal will work for less money.

   Why not eliminate all personal income taxes and put an excise tax on foreign goods - As permitted by the Constitution.   It will never happen . . .    There are to many people that live off the current system.    Govt. employees (IRS), lawyers, accountants, etc.

/

[glenn kangiser]

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/immigration/mexican-drug-cartel-sheriff-arpaio-07292010

Az Sheriff Joe gets a text message from Mexico.

[StinkerBell]

Bayview,

I do not think itis right for illegals to be on welfare. But it is just not illegals there are many who immigrate here from theEastern block coutries that our goverment set up on welfare the moment they arrive. I have issues with that too.

I do think a national tax is the first step and not the only step. Everyone is a consumer, thus everyone would be contributing to federal tax based upon their consumer spending or lack of.  If people are truly poor they will not be spending money on getting their nails done, wearing gold jewlry or any other thing I see while they are living off the government which is really living off those who work and struggle too.

[Sassy]

This was written in 1996 but still applies in regards to anchor babies...

Anchor Babies
By Wayne Lutton
Volume 6, Number 4 (Summer 1996)
Issue theme: "The battle for official English"

The Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, quoted in the box on this page, was ratified in 1868 as a measure to grant citizenship to recently freed black slaves. However, it has been interpreted by the Congress as extending citizenship to anyone born within the geographic limits of the United States, even if the individual's parents are not citizens or legal residents.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

- The U.S. Constitution

Amendment Fourteen

Section 1 Popularly known as the "citizen-child loophole," this curious provision of U.S. law is used every year by tens of thousands of illegal aliens to obtain instant U.S. citizenship for their newborns. By mid-1995, the number of citizen-children who had been born to illegal alien parents was conservatively estimated at over one million.1 The citizen-children are automatically entitled to all of the benefits available to Americans, and, upon reaching the age of 21 years, can legally sponsor their parents and siblings for citizenship. This is why they are known as "anchor babies" - a child making it possible for an entire family to gain entry into the United States and its social welfare programs.

As illegal aliens, the parents of such children could be reported to federal authorities and potentially face deportation. However, deportations rarely occur. Indeed, being the parent of a new citizen-child is often cited as a legal argument to avoid such action. "In the last 10 to 15 years, I can't remember a case (of deportation of parents)," observed Peter Nu�ez, U.S. Attorney for San Diego during the Bush administration.2

Along the Texas-Mexican border, pregnant Mexican women frequently use the services of midwives (parteras) on the U.S. side who, for anywhere from $200 to over a $1000, provide women with delivery care, as well as U.S. citizenship forms and supporting documentation for their infants. From Matamoros, Mexico, pregnant women often simply take a taxi across the international bridge to deliver their children in Brownsville, Texas. One popular midwife, 48-year-old Trini Saldivar, freely conceded to a Los Angeles Times reporter that "the prospect of instant citizenship is the lure that draws many of her patients across the border."

"Mexicans who cannot afford American immigration lawyers after their kids are born go to American parteras before their kids are born," Professor Margarita Tagle of Texas A & M University explained. Between Brownsville and Laredo, 140 parteras are doing business - about one per mile. In 1995, 259 midwives were licensed in Texas.3 Should complications arise, women are taken to local public hospitals, where they are cared for at U.S. taxpayer expense.4

California Governor Pete Wilson pointed out in 1994 that there was an alarming jump in the number of citizen-children on Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC). Between 1988 and 1993, the number of citizen-children in California receiving AFDC increased fourfold to about 12 percent of the state caseload. A report by the California Department of Health Services found nearly 96,000 babies were born to illegal immigrants in 1992, with their medical care costing the state $230 million.5 A 1993 cost-benefit study prepared by Louis Rea and Richard Parker of San Diego State University found that 41 percent of the estimated 5,800 citizen-children born in San Diego County in 1992 immediately went on welfare. A year later, about 34 percent of them were still receiving benefits. Such welfare cases in San Diego were estimated to cost taxpayers $18.7 million per year.6 By 1995, there were over 114,000 citizen-children living in Los Angeles County.

The system is open to fraud. A state-funded Orange County (CA) study found 62 percent of the claims in citizen-child cases were fraudulent. Some parents were earning money without reporting their income, or were using counterfeit documents."...the Fourteenth Amendment's citizenship clause pertains only to the children of those legally admitted to permanent residence."

Others were not even living in California. "They were getting checks laundered by friends and family. When we checked with schools, often the child wasn't in the country," reported Angelo Doti, director of financial assistance for Orange County.7

Last year, in the largest such case in INS history, four midwives in Brownsville and San Benito, Texas pleaded guilty to filing fraudulent Texas birth certificates for 1,500 children actually born in Mexico. Making $800 to $1,200 for each birth certificate they falsified, the network of midwives operated profitably from 1988 to 1994.8 However, midwife-assisted birth registrations are rarely checked. There are virtually no safeguards to prevent a midwife from inventing a child's U.S. address.

The United States is one of the very few countries basing citizenship on the mere fortuity of having been born here. The overwhelming majority of countries base citizenship on the legal status of the parents. [See the chart on page 16.]

Peter Schuck and Rogers Smith of Yale University are among the legal scholars who argue that the Fourteenth Amendment's citizenship clause pertains only to the children of those legally admitted to permanent residence. Few believe that the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment intended to extend citizenship to the children of illegal aliens, a non-existent legal concept in 1868.9 (See page 19.)

Several members of Congress have introduced measures to close the "citizen-child loophole." Rep. Mark Foley (R-FL) is sponsor of a Citizenship Clarification Amendment. This act would grant automatic citizenship to a newborn only on the condition that at least one parent is a legal resident at the time of the child's birth.

Rep. Brian Bilbray (R-CA) asserts Congress can simply reinterpret the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, since the drafters could not have foreseen the current immigration situation. Rep. Bilbray's Citizenship Reform Act would amend the Immigration and Nationality Act to define the Amendment's phrase "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" as referring only to U.S. citizens or legal immigrants. Immigrants illegally in this country would be in violation of the act. (See page 9.)

On another tack, Elton Gallegly (R-CA) and Anthony Beileson (D-CA) both have submitted constitutional amendments that would deny citizenship to babies of illegal aliens. (See page 7.)

These proposals were introduced during the 1995-1996 Congress but were not acted upon. They are expected to be reintrodcued in the next Congress.

NOTES

1 Nancy Cleeland and Eric Young, "Citizen children: Offspring of illegal immigrants face an uncertain future," Miami Herald, June 5, 1995.

2 Ibid.

3 Jesse Katz, "Rio Grande Midwives Deliver Citizenship," Los Angeles Times, May 13, 1995.

4 Matt Moffet, "Border Midwives Bring Baby Boom to South Texas," Wall Street Journal, October 16, 1991.

5 Joan Lowry, "Pushing to limit U.S. birthright," San Francisco Examiner, July 23, 1995.

6 Ibid.

7 Cleeland and Young, op. cit.

8 Fernando Del Valle, "Four midwives plead guilty," Valley Morning Star, Harlingen, Texas, July 6, 1995.

9 Peter H. Schuck and Rogers M. Smith, Citizenship Without Consent (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1985).

[Shawn B]

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.


Illegal immigrants are not under the jurisdiction of the U.S. or the State that they reside in. Therefore their children cannot be under the jurisdiction either because it takes at least one parent that has U.S. citizenship for the child to be under the jurisdiction.

Politicians love reading only the opening statement's of the different articles and clauses of the Constitution, and they don't understand comma's or semicolon's either.

.

[Pox Eclipse]

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.


Illegal immigrants are not under the jurisdiction of the U.S. or the State that they reside in.

You are mistaken.  Illegal aliens can be, and are prosecuted, convicted and imprisoned for crimes they commit in the US.  That makes them subject to the jurisdiction of the US.  That clause refers to the children born to foreign diplomats while serving in the US.   Diplomats are not subject to the jurisdiction of the US, and cannot be prosecuted for crimes they commit while posted here (they can be sent home).  Children born to them while posted here do not get birthright citizenship.