too many children rant

[tanya]

Yes!!! I am saying it right now jesus had no problem with her prostitution.  And the reason why he had no problem with it was because he walked with god in love and that was the entire reason for his time on earth, not to judge, not to lead, not to be all special, to SHOW people that gods way is real!!! ALL that is aasked of each of us is to love one another and how it through our actions.  Even if he did have a problem with it, which he didn't, he never would have preached to her about it, he would have shown her the way through love and fellowship and she would also sit with god.  As far as parent thinking ahead a little bit, I bet there are more than a few who feel they did think ahead who have recently lost jobs homes etc. imagine how they feel now with this status welfare issue. 

[tanya]

I am going to bed now.  I have to say a few rosaries so I don't go to hell if I die in my sleep.  And I am babysitting tomorrow so I need my rest. 

[cordwood]

 Don; She only had six implanted, Two split to make the eight.
I feel this woman should be hounded not because she wanted more children,....Because she SELFISHLY wanted more children. She has a wanton lust for controlled affection that she feels she can only get from her own children, Not for the love she HAS for the children but the love she WANTS from the children and IMHO that's WRONG!!!
The type of pregnancy she wanted and ultimately got is very risky and often ends up with very disabled children, If half don't end up with brain or other deformities it will be a rare case.
To say these children were gifts from God would also be saying the children thrown off the bridge by their mother were somehow gifts he wanted back?!?!?! At some point people need to realize God is not doing all of this and the person doing it should take responsibility for THEIR actions and not cop out and call it "Gods Will"!
I am not saying these children don't deserve the best care. I am saying some guidelines should be set to keep this from being a growing trend and keep it an isolated case.

[MountainDon]

Don; She only had six implanted, Two split to make the eight.

Correct. I misspoke.

Also correct on everything thing else you said cordwood.

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yes!!! I am saying it right now jesus had no problem with her prostitution.

Perhaps you missed my quote:
Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge. (Hebrews 13:4)

Do you want it in God's own words? "Thou shall not commit adultery."

This does not only refer to infidelity inside of marriage, as there was a double standard in the definition of adultery in Patriarchal Israel for men, adultery meant sex with another married woman. For women, adultery meant sex with any other man 

[Jens]

Had you given you heart to her Don?  Then don't worry about the whole "one year in sin part", that whole thing has pissed me off ever since I started hearing it.  I just wanna tell people that think that way, and then put down someone else to take a long walk off a short bridge!

You guys are cracking me up here!  Glenn, you had me rolling a couple of pages ago, can't remember what it was, or where it is, but...

"This does not only refer to infidelity inside of marriage, as there was a double standard in the definition of adultery in Patriarchal Israel for men, adultery meant sex with another married woman. For women, adultery meant sex with any other man"

Sure is nice of man to decide what God means when he says things so simple, innit.

If we had UHC, she would not have been able to get an appointment for IVF.  There would be too many people with cuts and bruises in front of her, "Well, I just sneezed.  Never could go to the Doc before, but now that it's free..."

I think she actually invested that $100k pretty wisely, when you consider the returns of endorsements, advertisements, documentaries, and especially once she turns out to be an approved Saint, whose story gets made into a movie about all the cruel judgmental people out there, and that the only ones who "cared" were the government that allowed it.  Has a certain ring to it.  Of course, she could have just spent $100 on a Sunset Blvd boy instead!  


I still have never read the part in the Bible that says masturbation is a sin.  With the danger of getting lynched in mind here, I think Paul was a bit of a closet homosexual, who was generally sexually repressed at the same time.  At least, that is what I get from reading him.  I don't think there is anything wrong with that, but to pen religious doctrine that so powerfully impacts human history with your own agenda...  Oh boy...that just opened up a huge can!  People who know nothing of marriage, should not counsel about it, IMO. 

I wonder if any here who are complaining about welfare, single parenting, and all of the other things that are being complained about here, have ever been in the situation themselves?  It really is a curious thing in humans, that the things you complain about, you either have no knowledge of, or are speaking through reflective convictions.

I stopped responding a few pages back, because I was getting pissed off.  The things I was reading, seemed to be uninformed conjecture about how the other half live, when in reality, we have been that other have for most of the last ten years.  I was 19, my wife 16 when our oldest was born, he just turned 10.  We were "married" a year after that, although we had already been married since before he was born.  We now have 4 kids.  Almost got divorced once, but pulled through by the grace of God.  We have always been a single income family.  Right now, I am the stay at home, with my wife working as a baker, she makes $10 per hour.  That's right, $10 per hour, for a household of 6.  At times in the past, we have needed food stamps in the past, and been fortunate it was there.  

Wanna here something that'll really rile you up!  I just filed my taxes...I paid $0 out of wages, and am getting a refund of $3500.  I'm not complaining, cause we could really use it, but it is a bit strange!

What I am trying to say here, by telling you about our circumstances, is that none of the things being talked about (family wise) here are impossible.  Maybe we should encourage folks to succeed, instead of just warning them about the failures (a very subjective term in itself).  

BTW, my wife and I are both products of some "failures".  Her mom, has been married and divorced twice.  A single working mom, her daughter grew up latchkey, going to public schools in the ghetto's of Stockton, CA.  Book smarts aren't her strong suit, but she is still one of the smartest people I have met, because she doesn't limit it to her brain.  She cooks everything from scratch, including cream of mushroom soup for tuna casarole.  She also butchers chickens, bakes, and amazes me how well she can keep the house clean, everybody fed, etc.  

I grew up with a mom who worked in a man's world.  I would get dropped off at Grandma and Grandpa's at 5 AM, and picked up around 6 PM, yet mom still found time to coach my losing little league team to a head spinning turn around!  She almost never missed a performance of mine in drama or band.  I thought she was going to pass out when I told her I was going to be a dad!  Now she is the proudest grandparent!  

Basically, it's like this, if you love life, God (even if you don't recognize him), and your kids, it shows.  Your kids will reflect that love, and very possibly continue it.  

Sorry, just started rambling, but I just wanted to tell you all why I was so riled, and to apologize for my part in judgments against you.

Shabbat shalom

[Ernest T. Bass]

I am going to bed now.  I have to say a few rosaries so I don't go to hell if I die in my sleep.

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm? Mere repetition of words never bought anyone heaven. Unless you're praying with quite a bit of contrition for those sins meriting hell, you might as well save your breath and go to bed. If, however, you are truly repentant for your sins and are begging God for mercy, asking His mother for her intercession wouldn't be such a bad idea. Jesus has a tremendous amount of respect and love for His mother, as is illustrated in the story of the wedding feast at Cana. He will certainly be pleased with anyone who has respect for His mother, and will have a hard time turning that person down at the pearly gate if she puts in a good word for him.

I don't know why I bother...

[Ernest T. Bass]

"This does not only refer to infidelity inside of marriage, as there was a double standard in the definition of adultery in Patriarchal Israel for men, adultery meant sex with another married woman. For women, adultery meant sex with any other man"

Sure is nice of man to decide what God means when he says things so simple, innit.

God picked the word, not us. It meant the same thing before he used it...

I still have never read the part in the Bible that says masturbation is a sin.  

It doesn't say anything directly, it is up to us to decide if it's moral or not. The CC is against it for the same reason that it is against porn. Chiefly, that sexual pleasure is a gift that is meant to be selflessly shared with a spouse, to strengthen the bond between the two and to be open to new life. Selfish use of sexual pleasure is destructive to a relationship, and to a potential relationship as it is being done solely for one's own gratification. YMMV 

Basically, it's like this, if you love life, God (even if you don't recognize him), and your kids, it shows.  Your kids will reflect that love, and very possibly continue it.  

This is true, but it can also become a very comfortable lukewarm "good enough" area to float around in if one is not on a spiritual journey, so you should always be moving forward with your relationship with God rather than getting stagnant.. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, just encouraging you to continue "fighting the good fight."

[r8ingbull]

I wonder if any here who are complaining about welfare, single parenting, and all of the other things that are being complained about here, have ever been in the situation themselves?  It really is a curious thing in humans, that the things you complain about, you either have no knowledge of, or are speaking through reflective convictions.

I stopped responding a few pages back, because I was getting pissed off.  The things I was reading, seemed to be uninformed conjecture about how the other half live, when in reality, we have been that other have for most of the last ten years.  I was 19, my wife 16 when our oldest was born, he just turned 10.  We were "married" a year after that, although we had already been married since before he was born.  We now have 4 kids.  Almost got divorced once, but pulled through by the grace of God.  We have always been a single income family.  Right now, I am the stay at home, with my wife working as a baker, she makes $10 per hour.  That's right, $10 per hour, for a household of 6.  At times in the past, we have needed food stamps in the past, and been fortunate it was there.  

Wanna here something that'll really rile you up!  I just filed my taxes...I paid $0 out of wages, and am getting a refund of $3500.  I'm not complaining, cause we could really use it, but it is a bit strange!

What I am trying to say here, by telling you about our circumstances, is that none of the things being talked about (family wise) here are impossible.  Maybe we should encourage folks to succeed, instead of just warning them about the failures (a very subjective term in itself).  

What is a 'reflective conviction'?  I've never heard that term.

I'm glad someone is using the money I pay into the social policy networks.  Using it and not abusing it that is...

For me and my daughter, it isn't about success/failure.  It's about using all her skills and brains to get a result.  But most important is learning from any incorrect results.  She has learned from me that a failure is better than a 1/2 assed success.  Only because the result of a failure is a full success next time.

[StinkerBell]

 




I stopped responding a few pages back, because I was getting pissed off.  The things I was reading, seemed to be uninformed conjecture about how the other half live, when in reality, we have been that other have for most of the last ten years.  I was 19, my wife 16 when our oldest was born, he just turned 10.  We were "married" a year after that, although we had already been married since before he was born.  We now have 4 kids.  Almost got divorced once, but pulled through by the grace of God.  We have always been a single income family.  Right now, I am the stay at home, with my wife working as a baker, she makes $10 per hour.  That's right, $10 per hour, for a household of 6.  At times in the past, we have needed food stamps in the past, and been fortunate it was there.  

It is one thing to find yourself in a situation that is unplanned. However it is entirely another situation knowing you can not afford/provide for your children then have 8 more and expect the state to help you. This is why people are angry.

[John_C]

Let's see if I understand.

A single mom of 6, no mention of the father(s) of those kids.

Gets a $100,000 settlement.  Goes back to schools?  Nope!  Starts a business? Nope!

"Invests" the money in artificial insemination knowing she will be able to use the police power of the state to force others to pay the medical bills, lifelong medical care, food, shelter and education of all the kids.

If the "investment" really pays off there will be paid interviews, donations, and perhaps a book or movie.  If not government will continue to take money from other to supply her needs.

Under the guise of biblical teachings we do not have the right to criticize her decisions.  We do have the moral and legal obligation to pay for this train wreck.

Ok,  got it.

You think she's done?  How many more will she have?  Is that ok?  How many copycats will be spawned (pun intended) by her instant fame and publicity. 

These kids will stay in the news for generations, much like the Dionne quintuplets but with a sick twist.  In the end it is likely that welfare laws will get re-written because of the enormity of this abuse and future, deserving people will find less funding and compassion.

[MountainDon]

It is one thing to find yourself in a situation that is unplanned. However it is entirely another situation knowing you can not afford/provide for your children then have 8 more and expect the state to help you. This is why people are angry.

That's it in a nutshell, Stink.. 


All the sidetracking about God, Jesus, marriage yes/no, universal health care, etc. is all smokescreen. The real question is, was the decision to have more children, a rational responsible move, especially in a risky venture like IVF, given her personal situation? I've also noted another detail I forgot about. The OctoMom has about $50,000 in outstanding student loans. I don't know if those were incurred before or after the $100K settlement. Draw your own conclusions on that.

[Jens]

Ern, we are all on a spiritual journey, and all finding our way back to God, anyone who says their journey is over, is either dead, arrogant, or is the Messiah. 

In Genesis, it says "for this reason shall a man leave his mother and father, and be joined to his wife, that they become one flesh", or something to that effect.  The Hebrew word used for join, is used about 5 more times in the scriptures, every time it pertains to man or Israel's clinging to God...spiritually.  We, as man, in our infinite wisdom, have dubbed it marriage, and put legal terms to it.  That is what I mean by perverting it...taking something beautiful, and spiritual, and turning it into something physical, and tangible, kind of like what we do with God simply by naming. 

I can't believe I wrote so much earlier!  I'm sorry!

John, "investment", and that stuff, wreaked with sarcasm, at least where I am from 

Bull, by reflective conviction, I mean that people base their dislikes, on things that they find in themselves, often without even knowing it.  They convict others, based on their own reflection, and they don't even realize they are looking at themselves.  I talk about this, not in view of the woman discussed here, but all of the judgments that get levied upon people who have kids young, or single, or get divorced, or are poor, rich, etc.

Again, so sorry about the novel up there!

[StinkerBell]

Bull, by reflective conviction, I mean that people base their dislikes, on things that they find in themselves, often without even knowing it.  They convict others, based on their own reflection, and they don't even realize they are looking at themselves.  I talk about this, not in view of the woman discussed here, but all of the judgments that get levied upon people who have kids young, or single, or get divorced, or are poor, rich, etc.

I agree that some people base their dislikes on things they find in them self (projecting). I base some of my dislikes on observations made, for example,  I do not like men who beat their wife, this does not mean I have experienced a beating by my husband.

[Redoverfarm]

I have pretty well stayed clear of this thread but it looks like it will be a slow agonizing death.  So has anyone looked at the monetary gain of the mother on a goverment based assistance (Welfare). Although she said that she will not be getting warefare but assistance.    6 children + 8 children= 14.  What would her monetary monthly assistance be in CA. 

I for one think she was wrong.  You can blame whomever you would like but the ultimate decision was hers.

[Ernest T. Bass]

In Genesis, it says "for this reason shall a man leave his mother and father, and be joined to his wife, that they become one flesh", or something to that effect.  The Hebrew word used for join, is used about 5 more times in the scriptures, every time it pertains to man or Israel's clinging to God...spiritually.  We, as man, in our infinite wisdom, have dubbed it marriage, and put legal terms to it. 

You're saying that Adam and Eve were joined through God, right? And that this joining happens as soon as we give our heart to someone without an official "marriage"?

It's hard to argue this on a biblical basis, though you could bring up the wedding feast and those traditions that Jesus obviously respected, but as a Catholic I would want to married through the Church. I believe that God blesses a marriage in a special way through the sacrament of matrimony, and that the couple will receive the graces they need to remain steadfast in their faithfulness to one another through it. I also believe that the waiting and formation time before the sacrament of marriage will help the couple to fully understand the serious step they are taking with one another, rather than just getting caught up in a moment of passionate feelings that could quickly fade if the going gets rough.

[glenn kangiser]

Per child for some of them determined to have special needs - depending on circumstances could get costly if the become responsibility of the state - Up to $3006 under special circumstances - PER CHILD 

"(c) (1) The rate to be paid for 24-hour out-of-home care and
supervision provided to children who are both consumers of regional
center services pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 4512 and
recipients of AFDC-FC benefits under this chapter shall be two
thousand six dollars ($2,006) per child per month.
   (2) (A) The county, at its sole discretion, may authorize a
supplement of up to one thousand dollars ($1,000) to the rate for
children three years of age and older, if it determines the child has
the need for extraordinary care and supervision that cannot be met
within the rate established pursuant to paragraph (1)"

I didn't find the normal welfare amount - this is bad enough   $3006 x 14 =$42084 per month --- not likely all would come under this but if taken from her some could and besides that is what is being paid for others who are in a non-responsibility situation - since we are just looking at examples.

[Jens]

To answer the dollar amount in real world terms, speaking California legalese from my experiences, $1500 per month is the aid she will be given.  Plus $900 in food stamps.  In order to get the $1500 though, she will have to attend 40 hours of classes per week, and be actively seeking employment.  Sounds like something that actually makes a bit of sense right?  Doesn't work that way.  Somehow, the only people that end up getting screwed, are the ones that are working really hard, and just need some help. 

The whole welfare system sucks!  IMO, just get rid of it, teach people to help others (something the capitalist system doesn't do well), feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick.  If they got rid of welfare, they could probably set up a soup kitchen on every block! 

Ern, of course Jesus respected the ceremony of marriage, and so should we.  But nobody, anywhere, has the right to tell another who they can or can't be married to, how old they have to be, how they have to go about it, etc.  The best way for you, is the best way for you, but may not be even for your brother who shares your beliefs.  Just as we all must search for God in our own ways (there is no 12 step program), so must we all find our way through every other journey in life. 

"I also believe that the waiting and formation time before the sacrament of marriage will help the couple to fully understand the serious step they are taking with one another, rather than just getting caught up in a moment of passionate feelings that could quickly fade if the going gets rough."

I think that it is more important to teach them to love, work hard, and not to give up, and when the going gets tough, praise God for his greatness.  Baruch atah Adonai Eloheinu melech ha'olam, blessed is the Lord God sovereign in the universe.  By keeping sight of the needs of others, keeping selfishness at bay, only then can a marriage succeed. 

BTW, we were married 1.5 years after our son was born , thus 2.5 years after we met.  Most "recognized" marriages I have witnessed, don't even last that long, yet we will have our 9th wedding anniversary this summer, praise be to Him!  If you limit love, with rules of protocol, instead of true rules of God, you become like our government.  As much love as I have for the Church, I feel she will never see the points at which she can change to drawing people in, instead of driving them away.  She can be swiftly unkind.

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ern, of course Jesus respected the ceremony of marriage, and so should we.  But nobody, anywhere, has the right to tell another who they can or can't be married to, how old they have to be,

Who's telling everyone who they can and can't marry?

  By keeping sight of the needs of others, keeping selfishness at bay, only then can a marriage succeed. 

I completely agree... I don't see how the sacrament of marriage is not helping a couple to achieve that.

BTW, we were married 1.5 years after our son was born , thus 2.5 years after we met.  Most "recognized" marriages I have witnessed, don't even last that long, yet we will have our 9th wedding anniversary this summer, praise be to Him! 

I'm glad for your healthy marriage, and I too have seen "official" marriages break up quickly. A marriage ceremony is not a miracle great-marriage-maker by any means, the root of the problems are always in the individuals.. I'm just saying that the marriage sacrament a great tool for an already blessed and selfless couple to further solidify their holy union.

If you limit love, with rules of protocol, instead of true rules of God, you become like our government. 

How does a recognized marriage limit your love? Just because you are asked to remain abstinent beforehand? Don't you think that you are showing much true love and commitment to your spouse-to-be if you are willing to wait until your marriage to share that special gift? If their is no waiting, then their is no commitment. Perhaps not necessarily in your case, but other immature relationships will develop and fall apart quickly, as is often case nowadays, leading to many unwanted and uncared for (either physically or spiritually) children. The result of a society where no one accepts responsibility for the repercussions of their actions and the pleasures they seek...

[NM_Shooter]

Hey Ern, in about 10 years or so, let me know if you are looking for a wife...  I've got a 16 year old I'd like to introduce you to.  She's got an IQ of 150, plays the piano, competitive chess, high school tennis, ballroom dances, lives to read, likes to ride dirt bikes, and can outshoot most men I know.  She's also gorgeous, is family centric, and is a good Catholic.    

But she can't cook 

-f-

P.S.  Stay strong in your faith. 

[MountainDon]

If Andrew likes to cook there is no problem.  I am the cook around here. 







Note to self: need matchmaking topic. 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I get that enough at home... NM, with an IQ of 150 it shouldn't take long to cook..

[Dog]

OMG! I stopped reading a while back...this thing is out of control 

I must leave and go masturbate! 

[glenn kangiser]

I think all of this religious discussion is leading you astray, Dog. A stray dog. hmm

[tanya]

WHEW I am back.  I had to rest up for a few hours before I could get online.  Baby had the flu!!!  Now let me tell you one baby with flu took all I had.  I was up until midnight just doing the laundry.  The octo mom is going to have her hands full and I hope to heaven she gets a few nanny's provided. I would like everyone here who is so concerned about how much govt. assistance she will receive to also be open minded enough to state how much taxes she will PAY when the movie deals, magazine articles, and promo gigs come in.  I am thinking she might actually have to have a few more jsut to keep from losing it all tot he govt. 

I told my daughter and her husband I think they should go for the IVF, since she is limited to one more, maybe two more pregnancies.  She said no!  because pregnancy is already risky for her and she thinks it would be higher risk for multiples, he said YES he wants 9 so they have an even ten.  I think three might be reasonable.  We will see... The Catholic relatives with big families will be here for the party and I will put it up for a vote.  BUT according to someone up there in the thread the man has authority over the wifes body by gods SAY SO!!!   We will see.  I already have my masters degree in poop disturbing, I am thinking... maybe I can get the PhD too...