Bear Spray vs. Firearms

[MountainDon]

Rifle Cartridge Killing Power List
taken from http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_killing_power_list.htm

Factors included in the calculations factors are velocity, energy, bullet weight, sectional density (SD), and bullet cross-sectional area (frontal area).

The calcs were were done for 100 yards, which is not the range we'd be talking here, but it's something to look at. Here is the formula:
Energy at 100 yards (in foot pounds) x Sectional Density (taken from reloading manuals) x Bullet Frontal Area (in square inches) = Killing Power figure at 100 yards.

some of the numbers...

      .223 WSSM (64 grain at 3600 fps) - 10.1

      .243 Winchester (100 grain at 2960 fps) - 18.1

      .25-06 Remington (120 grain at 2990 fps) - 26.5

      .270 Winchester (130 grain at 3150 fps) - 35.0
      .270 Winchester (150 grain at 2850 fps) - 37.4

      7mm-08 Remington (140 grain at 2860 fps) - 33.6

      .30-30 Winchester (150 grain at 2390 fps) - 22.8
      .30-30 Winchester (170 grain at 2200 fps) - 25.4

      .308 Winchester (150 grain at 2820 fps) - 34.7
      .308 Winchester (180 grain at 2620 fps) - 46.2

      .30-06 Springfield (150 grain at 2920 fps) - 37.3
      .30-06 Springfield (180 grain at 2700 fps) - 49.2

      .303 British (180 grain at 2460 fps) - 40.1

      .338 Winchester Magnum (250 grain at 2650 fps) - 94.8

      .357 Magnum (Rifle) (158 grain at 1830 fps) - 12.7

      .44 Remington Magnum (Rifle) (240 grain at 1760 fps) - 26.4

      .444 Marlin (265 grain at 2325 fps) - 63.4

      .45-70 Government (300 grain at 1810 fps) - 50.1
      .45-70 Government (405 grain at 1330 fps) - 55.0

      .450 Marlin (350 grain at 2100 fps) - 88.9

      .458 Winchester Magnum (500 grain at 2090 fps) - 217.3

[John_C]

I don't have the 100 yd. ballistics but compare these 45-70 #'s to the Muzzle Vel. in () above.

420-gr  @ 1850-fps
540-gr  @ 1550-fps

from Garrett cartridges

[Sassy]

Well, when I was about 18 y/o, a friend & I were camping up by Tenaya Lake in Yosemite - had a small fire, laid our sleeping bags on the ground, our ice chest on the picnic table & went to sleep.   A crash woke us up, we looked & there was a big brown bear - it had just knocked our ice chest on the ground...  I froze, thinking if I was quiet, it would leave us alone.  My friend started yelling & successfully fought it off with handfuls of sand     

She & I ended up sleeping in the car for the rest of the night 

[John_C]

successfully fought it off with handfuls of sand

There you go Don & Glenn.  A small child and two young women fought off bears with a water pistol and handfuls of sand, while we contemplate high powered rifles.  Men are such wimps

[glenn kangiser]

Sorry to disagree with you, John, but I can't think of anything more fierce than a screaming woman throwing  handfuls of sand. 

I don't blame the bear for running away and I don't feel a man should be belittled or called a wimp for doing similar.

[John_C]

I can't think of anything more fierce than a screaming woman throwing  handfuls of sand. 

Ummmm  ...  handfuls of cast iron cookware perhaps???

[glenn kangiser]

I knew one who effectively used that also.  No -- I wasn't married to her.

[ScottA]

Years ago I was visiting some friends overnight. His wife was pregnant at the time. That morning she offered to cook us breakfast. We where sitting in the living room talking when all the sudden a cast iron skillet came flying across the room followed by "Cook your own breakfast!". Needless to say we decided to eat out.

[MountainDon]

[quote author=John C link=topic=4252.msg52855#msg52855 date=1208020953

There you go Don & Glenn.  A small child and two young women fought off bears with a water pistol and handfuls of sand, while we contemplate high powered rifles.  Men are such wimps
[/quote]

I believe the startle factor comes into play at times too. Works both ways too. 

[MountainDon]

There is one other issue with the 45-70.  A lot of ammo manufacturers sell loads suitable for use in the late civil war era Trapdoor Springfield.  These loads intended for that comparatively weak action are pretty wimpy by modern standards.  The Marlin lever action and several others can handle MUCH hotter loads.  That ammo will have a warning on the box "only for use in ............"  Garrett cartridges has a 45-70 load with a 540 grain bullet.

Very true. I have no doubt the Garrett's are truly fine. There are a number of ammo manufacturers who load the 45-70 for modern firearms, other than Garrett. Grizzly and Buffalo Bore have some potent +P loads with heavy bullets and their prices are not as dear as Garrett.

Of course you can always hand load anything your heat desires.

[MountainDon]

I don't know how many of you read all the way through the info reference that NM_Shooter posted back a ways... but one handy hint was to carry a small amount of baby Shampoo, the No-Tears type, just in case you got some on yourself, in your own eyes sometime. 

[rwanders]

I had a friend here in Alaska back in 1968 who bought a 458 Mag (beautiful gun!) and decided to take it on a caribou hunt at Eureka. Made a beautiful shoulder shot on a large caribou from about 200 yards. It went down like a bag of cement. Whenever we got up to it the entrance point was perfect. However, the exit wound on the other side was very interesting----when I stopped laughing, I walked over and picked up the forequarter it had ripped completely off that bull. The lung cavity looked like a grenade had gone off in it. I don't know what you really need one of those behemoths for----seems like overkill even for a Kodiak Brown Bear.

[John_C]

My African hunter friend has a .458 Lott, a souped up .458 Win Mag.  Ammo is about $5 a shot.  When we go to the range people are begging him to let them fire of a few.  One or two usually does it, both for their wallet and their shoulder.  I've never fired the thing.  I wear ear plugs & ear muffs when I'm at the adjacent firing bench shooting my array of sissy guns.  He did go shoot a water buffalo in heavy cover... probably a good tool for that job.

[MountainDon]

I find it difficult to imagine what it would feel like firing one of those.

I ordered two replacement Counter Assault bear sprays today. They were getting on in years.

FWIW, here's a recoil chart to go along with the previous one
http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

The author opines that for most people 15 foot pounds of free recoil energy and 10 fps of recoil velocity represent the approximate upper limit of the comfort level. I think I'd go along with that.

...excerpts...                  pounds          foot-pounds   feet per sec.
Cartridge (Wb@MV)    Rifle Weight    Recoil energy    Recoil velocity
.22 LR (40 at 1165)         4.0               0.2              n/a
.223 Rem. (62 at 3025)        7.0             3.9            6.0
.22-250 Rem. (55 at 3600)  8.5                    4.7          6.0
.243 Win. (100 at 2960)    7.5              8.8           8.7
.270 Win. (150 at 2900)    8.0             17.0           11.7
7mm-08 Rem. (140 at 2860)    8.0         12.6        10.1
.30-30 Win. (150 at 2400)    7.5            10.6         9.5
.30-30 Win. (170 at 2200)    7.5            11.0         9.7
.308 Win. (150 at 2800)    7.5            15.8           11.7
.308 Win. (180 at 2610)    8.0            17.5           11.9
.30-06 Spfd. (150 at 2910)    8.0           17.6          11.9
.30-06 Spfd. (180 at 2700)    8.0           20.3         12.8
.338 Win. Mag. (250 at 2700)    9.0          33.1        15.4
.44 Rem. Mag. (240 at 1760)    7.5          11.2        9.8
.444 Marlin (240 at 2400)    7.5             23.3          14.2
.450 Marlin (350 at 2000)    7.0            37.2          18.5
.45-70 (300 at 1800)             7.0             23.9           14.8
.45-70 (405 at 1330)             7.5             18.7          12.7
.458 Win. Mag. (500 at 2100)   9.0          62.3       21.1
.458 Lott (500 at 2300)     10.0            70.4         21.3
.50 BMG (647 at 2710)            30.0           70.0        12.3

[John_C]

When sitting at the bench sighting it in Alan would put a 1/2 full bag of lead shot between the rifle and his shoulder.  Pilgrims who just wanted to shoot the thing would just sit down and press the thing against their t-shirt and tell him the trick is a firm grip.  Then BOOM and "Whoa...Crap ... That Hurts".  I'm chuckling as I type remembering ...  Twenty or so minutes later someone who hadn't seen the show would ask if they could shoot it. 

My single shot .44 mag rifle is under 7 pounds. Because it's a single shot I can seat the bullet out a bit and fill the additional space with powder. With that & the longer barrel  I drive the 240 gr. bullet @ 2300 fps (chronographed). It has a curved plastic butt plate and smacks you pretty good. If I'm going to shoot a lot from the bench I use a .243 that weighs about 8.5 lbs. No worries.  A few years ago I worked up a load for the .44 that is actually a little less powerful than  factory ammo but shoots ok.  I also have a very light load... I think it starts the 240 gr bullet out at about 900 fps.  It's good for small game since the bullet doesn't expand.  And some shotshells for the occasional snake. It makes a good all round Eastern woods rifle. Unfortunately it's the hot load that is the most accurate.

[John_C]

In 1805 as the Lewis & Clark Expedition approached the Rocky Mountains the local Indians warned them of the large, ferocious bears the would encounter in that region.  The men of the expedition dismissed the warning as those of people who only had primitive weapons. They had Kentucky long rifles that could kill anything.

After they encountered the bears and had been driven up trees, forced into rivers and forced to flee from bears that had taken 10 or 12 good hits, Meriwether Lewis wrote in his journal, "I believe the mens curiosity with regard to this animal has been satisfied".

[glenn kangiser]

What a rude awakening.  They should have listened.  I wonder if they lost any men to the bears?

[John_C]

Nope.   One of the amazing things about the Lewis & Clark Expedition is that they only suffered one fatality.  Early in the expedition one of the men died of what is now believed to have been a ruptured appendix.  At that time there was nothing anyone could have done for him.

[MountainDon]

Those were also very tough men. I read a recent book on their expedition. Really an amazing trip.

[John_C]

No Kidding!

Patrick Gass tried to enlist when the Civil War started....  He was nearly 90 and had lost an eye in the War of 1812.


This is too funny.  From the Wikipedia article on Patrick Gass

[MountainDon]

Nobody who came out west back then expected any government welfare. They didn't expect somebody else to make good on any errors they made.

I don't wannt to hijack this thread too bad. Maybe we need a Mountain Men (& Women) of yesterday topic? I have a new book I'll pop into the Book Corner Topic later.


gotta run...

[John_C]

It wasn't just the mountain men.  I used to do a lot of sailing. In sailing parlance those were "the days of wooden ships and iron men".

[gandalfthegrey]

 

John C That's hillarious.  Somewhere in my family archive there is a picture of my older brother in that same situation.   He was a boy scout at the jamborie (Yellowstone I believe).  Thanks for that. 

[MountainDon]

It wasn't just the mountain men.  I used to do a lot of sailing. In sailing parlance those were "the days of wooden ships and iron men"

If anyone has any doubt of that statement they should try to visit a historical sailing ship from the 1700's through 1800's. What passed for crew's quarters wouldn't be tolerated in any of our modern day jails and prisons. You could never even stand upright below decks. And lights were usually forbidden as they were candles or oil lamps and the fire danger was too great.

It boggles the mind to think that men volunteered to go to sea and live under such conditions, not only for months at a time, but for years as in the old whaling vessels. Whalers would set out from New England, travel round the 'horn', spend a couple years in the pacific, then sail back home.

[Redoverfarm]

It could have been for the "love of the sea" which I doubt.  Just like now it was for the money and a job.  Sort of like the crab fishing in Alaska.  The work is terrible with a lot of risk but the money is good if you survive the ocean in the winter months. I am sure it took a special kind of individual sort of like the earlier pioneers to seek that type of endeavor.