Installed shallow well point....have questions

[willie1280]

Just installed a well point up on our property.  Post hole dug down 4.5ft and hit water at the bottom of that hole.  Installed 3ft long well point along with 23ft of pipe (3ft above ground).  For now i just put a pitcher pump on top.
With a steady pumping action with the pitcher pump i can do 5gpm with no problems.
So the first 10 gallons or so were pretty dark.  The next 50 or so gallons had a very fine sediment in it.  If i pump at the 5gpm rate into a water bottle the water has a haze and sediment eventually settles to the bottom of the bottle.  But if i slow down my pumping to a 1 gpm or so rate into a water bottle it is crystal clear.

So why would pumping faster cause the sediment issue?
Just trying to come up with a plan before i go buy the electric pump/tank combo.

[Dave Sparks]

What diameter of pipe?  I would guess you are cavitating and the bubbles are mixing up the settled particles.
It always comes down to particles. Larger pipe 4+" and more time pumping may help.

[Redoverfarm]

Even with a drilled well it takes some time for sediment to settle.  I would imagine that you are creating more turbulence with the faster rate washing the particles loose.  Depending where the water vein is situated within the shaft could determine how long it will take for it to clear up.  Then again if it is sandy soil it could remain for a long time.

[willie1280]

1 1/4" pipe.

I'm going to buy the 1hp pump/tank from Harbor Freight.  I think i'll just put a filter ahead of that pump that'll take most of the sand out and then another finer filter after the pump.

[glenn kangiser]

Ideally you would develop the well at a significantly higher rate than you are planning on pumping it at permanently . What you see is a miniature of what you should be doing. Pump it at a high rate and all the fines come out of the filter pack you are developing behind the screen on the well point with natural sand or gravel and the fines come for as far as they can at the rate you are pumping. When you reduce the rate you get clear water because there is not enough velocity  to carry the fines out into your water you are using. I suggest putting a higher speed pump on first and then put  your final pump into the well to always get clean water. If you were only very shallow (less than 20 feet or so to water)  you could use a gas engine centrifical pump then put your small electric pump on afterward. Pump until clean with a bigger pump,  shut it down and started up again many times. It could take several hours until you are satisfied with the quality of the water at the high rate then when you put your pump on at the lower rate you will have clean water.

[glenn kangiser]

You could also use compressed air to develop the well with air lift pumping. Remember that this was simply undisturbed soil before you put the Well Point into the ground. Now you are trying to make a well out of it by taking all the fines out and getting clean water to flow freely.

[glenn kangiser]

When developing the well it is necessary to reverse the flow many times to break bridges of sand that occur  when pumping in one direction falsely making you think that you have developed sufficiently.  Do that by stopping the pump, airlift or other method of developing and allowing the water to flow back down the well if possible. If within priming suction range, do not put a check valve on the bottom of your pump and that will allow the water to flow backward down the suction pipe when shut down to break the bridges and improve development.

I drilled wells for 10 years  doing about 300 mostly agricultural wells producing an average of over 2500 gpm during developing.  We both air and pump developed.

[ChugiakTinkerer]

Wow, lot's of useful info here.  After reading Glenn's pointers about developing a well, I googled a little bit and found this: http://www3.northern.edu/natsource/WATER/Waterw1.htm

Not real in depth (whoops, pun unintended) but gives a good sketch of the process and terminology.  This will be handy when I decide to attempt a sand point on our property.

[glenn kangiser]

I believe I posted this in other places but here is well drilling to 350' deep in Myanmar... 8" hole for a 4" casing.  They made about 3 trips down this way drilling and reaming.  My wife was along discussing and translating for me with the driller geologist.  He spoke some English also.  They do know their stuff there.

The driller was very accommodating and helpful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-rkP4DwaC8

[ChugiakTinkerer]

That was too cool!  Just like any drilling crew I've seen, only less a few horsepower and no steel toed boots.

[glenn kangiser]

Yes, most Burmese like their toes to breathe ....even doing heavy work.... In general the low temperature there is about 80 degrees f.

I asked them about using a drilling rig... truck like we use.  Aside from the cost factor, they said they can do this right beside or between the large buildings in Yangon... where there is no room for a truck, and I have seen it done.  Done  in places where a truck was not possible to use yet they still drilled the well.

[glenn kangiser]

They also have some very nice locally built drilling rigs that are not truck mounted but have full power and can be set up in a day or so and ready to work.  Myanmar was closed to the outside world for about 50 years so they had to develop their own methods and equipment... sort of a parallel civilization all self contained.

Here is a video of one of 6 small locally built rotary rigs utilizing 4 wheel drive vehicle parts and manufactured in the industrial sector in Yangon.

The Gyo Phyu company geologist took us out there the next day.

https://youtu.be/yJ0LUeytkaU

They rigged the transfer case to give slow power down from a winch as well as power the Kelly bar.  Where they have nothing they use their intelligence to come up with brilliant solutions.

Again, my wife was translating in addition to the geologist English comments.  Unfortunately I am a slow Burmese learner...

[Dave Sparks]

Really cool Glen! Gonna be a hot one today!

[glenn kangiser]

Thanks Dave.... yes... smoking hot.... trying to stay cool 

[Adam Roby]

How do you know when you've dug down deep enough.  Do you periodically test every so many feet?  Is it all trial and error?
Been thinking of doing one manually on my land, not for consumption just for basic washing and utilities...  (unless it tests well then I could consume as well).

[glenn kangiser]

Water and sand will come into the well faster than you can bail it out.  If open bottom you develop it at this point.  If putting in screen you design the screen and install it with casing.  If well point you develop... Clean by pumping or air until you reachover desired or available clean capacity.

[Dave Sparks]

How do you know when you've dug down deep enough.  Do you periodically test every so many feet?  Is it all trial and error?
Been thinking of doing one manually on my land, not for consumption just for basic washing and utilities...  (unless it tests well then I could consume as well).

I know the way not to know if you have not dug down deep enough!

My neighbor did this 2 years ago.  He told the guys at Mariposa Well company he was going to be frugal and have someone place the pump that was cheaper. They got down to 600 feet and stopped. He has never got more than 100 gallons of water out of that well.
I was told by Matt, (whitlock)  that this side of the Whitlock gap has terrible wells.

The moral here is the well guys never ran their internal pump long enough to determine a flow rate that was supportable.
They were probably not happy and the story is sad because my neighbor put a metal room on his rental and now the house he lives in has a roof (being frugal) that is not good for rainwater.

Glen, when you introduced me to whitlock, you probably saved me $16,000.  Now I have 16,000 gallons of water tanks that cost $8,000 over 16 years !
I still don't think I have a drinking problem, only problem is when I can't get a drink! 

[glenn kangiser]

We try to take care of our own here,  Dave.  In the mountains here wells can vary a lot from point to point. My well was drilled where it was easy to get the drilling rig to...  Not where it should have been drilled.  So..  I got the land because it only produced 1 gallon per minute...  But it is dependable. 

[willie1280]

Update!

Bought a shallow well pump from HF for $90, some fittings, 2 valves and a filter and got everything hooked up this weekend.
Pumping ice cold crystal clear water to the camper!!



Best part...i've got a happy wife who can now take showers after a long weekend of wheeling and boating!!

[glenn kangiser]

That is wonderful.  Happy to see a success story. 

[ChugiakTinkerer]

A happy wife is a wonderful thing!  I'm looking at dropping a sand point at my place.  What do you think your total investment is for your water system?

[willie1280]

Pump was 90
Filter/nipples/bushings/check valves/t's/elbows was 100.
Pitcher pump was 40
Point, drive couplings and 23' worth of drive pipe 150
Half day jack hammer rental (best money spent ever) 45
A few beers for extra measure and were just under $450

Guy at menards swore by this stuff for pipe compound http://www.oatey.com/img/subcategory/15804_image2.jpg
It's the worse stuff i've ever used (although i don't have much experience with pipe compound).  Leaked like a (enter your favorite saying here)!  I ended up taking everything you see in the photo apart and using teflon tape instead.  Didn't leak a drop after that.

It was super humid this weekend and that water was ICE cold.  So make sure you factor in condensation dripping from your assembly when building your dog house.  The platform in my photo is just temporary until i make it's permanent home in a couple weeks once the bank account recoups

[Dave Sparks]

The way I was taught was 5 wraps of teflon and pipe joint compound on the male end but not to the last 3 threads at the end.
This keeps the joint compound out of your water and will stop a slow drip after a few days, if there is one.

[glenn kangiser]

I like the white smooth pipe dope with Teflon by Permatex I think it is.  It leaves a smooth surface kind of like Teflon tape after is dries just a little but seems to always seal without leaking.  I have had leaks with teflon tape and broken things tightening them with Teflon in there since it is so slippery it doesn't give indication of the actual pressure on the joint..... yes... I overdo it sometimes.   [deadhorse]