rough project plan / project phases

[duncanshannon]

Hi-

(thought i'd start a new topic for this question guessing it will be helpful to others like me in the future - vs adding it my existing posts)

I'm trying to make sure I understand the general sequences of phases of the building process so that I can break my project down and do it slowly over time.  I'd also like to understand how long I can go between 'steps' or phases w/o causing damage to the materials.

Assuming I'll get lots of great input on this... i'll comitt to cleaning it up the best I can and putting together something that can be a start of a project plan or check list for people in the future.  In time we could add time and cost ball parks too

I'm thinking of a 2 story 20' universal.

So... here is what i've gathered so far:

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Phase I  - Site Basics
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* find and buy land
* create site plan, driveway, cabin, etc.
* clear driveway and building site
* septic
* well
* foundation
* electric service to building site

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Phase 2 - get to 'dry in'
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* main subfloor
* 1st floor walls / house wrap
* 1st floor doors and windows?
* 2nd floor subfloor (is that the right term?)
* 2nd floor walls / house wrap
* 2nd floor doors and windows?
* roof trusses and sheathing
* windows/doors


<---- done with 'dry in'? ---->

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Phase 3 - Finish Exterior (should follow phase 2, but can be after 4)
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* hang siding/trim
* Finish roof / shingles


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Phase 4 - Finish Interior (really should to follow phase 2)
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* plumbing rough in and hook up to pump
* electric rough in and connection to service
* insulate
* drywall
* kitchen cabinets, appliances, lights, toilets etc
* finish flooring
* Painting


Main question(s):

Are these phases reasonable?   Are the main items within the phase reasonable?  Im sure each project will be different... i'm hoping to create a rough outline that can be re-used and applied broadly.

Specific questions:

1) What should the order of the foundation, wells and septic be?
2) how long can the wood be exposed to the wisconsin weather (hot/humid summer, cold snowy winter) w/o worrying about damage?  Thinking about... for example, if we put the floor joists and sub floor... can that sit out in the rain and snow over winter.  
3) how long can you go between wrap and siding?

[Redoverfarm]

Without addressing each individual phase comment I would

Determine the site for Septic/Well and then the house site as restrictions apply to the distances from the house to each of these improvements. Some septic systems can only be installed upon a reasonable slope.  If the area around the house site is not suitable then something has to be moved.  Likewise the well should not be at a location that is suitable for the house.  Here there is a 100 ft limit between well and septic and 25 ft between house and septic tank.

The construction of the house should be done as a whole meaning that all the framing for the 1st and 2nd story be completed as a continuing process.  Next the roof with a waterproof membrane being either felt or my recommendations Titanium Felt or synthetic next.  Followed by the house wrap, windows and doors.  As a side note and worthwhile suggestion on the subfloor for the first floor I would used either Shurfloor or Advantex.  Unless you can get all the framing done and the roof dryed in within a short time period you will have considerable damage to convientional OSB 3/4" subfloor by the elements.

[Squirl]

The general phases look good.
Every house building book I have read said put the septic in first.  It is the hardest to place on a property.  And because of setbacks it will determine the placement of everything else. Everything may seem fine till you start digging.
Many books, but not all say to go for the foundation next.  Again, all may seem fine until you start digging and hit an  unforeseen boulder.
Some say the well can come after this because generally water bearing layers run like a river under an area.  Also water can be found in most areas, it is just a question of depth.  Some disagree with this.  The idea is to put the well in before, because if there is unfit water they might not want to build.  I am of the opinion that if the water is unfit there are always other ways such as rain water catchment.

[duncanshannon]

@redoverfarm &  Squirl - good points about septic. that makes sense.

@Squirl - do you have any book recomendations? I just picked up a framing book.

@redoverfarm - if you think of it as a whole (Phase 2)... can we think of it as a whole spanning over a winter if you tarp it? I cant see why not, right?

if phase 2 is done, is that qualified as 'dried in'?

[rocking23nf]

I would shingle in phase 2, as soon as the roof is sheathed. As I learned last summer, it sucks having a non waterproof roof when your working.

[MountainDon]

wrap to siding:  depends on the wrap. different brands may have different time spans from the manufacturer for being left exposed. Tar paper; depends on sun intensity and how well the edges are held down. Some of mine was fine for 6 months of winter. You could also do one layer of tar paper to leave exposed and then do another just before finish siding is applied.

Exposed framing: I would not want to leave unsheathed framing very long at all. It is not all that sturdy until sheathed, IMO. Also there is all the changes in humidity that could affect the lumber. 

If there is any doubt as to the speed of getting dried in see if you can buy Advantech floor sheathing in your area.

To me, the roof is not dry until the shingles are on. But make certain you know what your insulation, roof venting plan will is. It also helps if you know where any chimney boxes, etc might need to be built. Easier before the roof is sheathed.

[Redoverfarm]

@redoverfarm &  Squirl - good points about septic. that makes sense.

@Squirl - do you have any book recomendations? I just picked up a framing book.

@redoverfarm - if you think of it as a whole (Phase 2)... can we think of it as a whole spanning over a winter if you tarp it? I cant see why not, right?

if phase 2 is done, is that qualified as 'dried in'?

Generally tarps do not hold up for extended period of time.  Tarps are IMO just short time temporaily weather shield. There are very few exceptions to this as other members will substantiate that they tear and leak when used for roofs and floor covering.  That is the reasoning behind Advantex it requires no additional safeguards when the deck is exposed to the elements.  Same goes for the Titanium Felt.  I am a firm believer in that product for excess of 6 months to be leakproof if it is applied over a suitable surface and as per manufacturers recommendation.  I consider the term "dried in" to mean that no water will enter into the internal portion of the structure.  It was several months between the sheeting phase of my roof and the metal roof. I applied the titanium and watched to make sure that there were no leaks.  After I was assured that there were none I went ahead and insulated the ceilings and began with the T&G ceiling.  Later that year the metal roof was installed.

Both the advantex and titanium were left during the winter months when they were exposed to snow and ice with no noticable damage.

[duncanshannon]

Both the advantex and titanium were left during the winter months when they were exposed to snow and ice with no noticable damage.

Cool!  I'll make sure I file that tip away for consideration at the right time.

is it a lot more expensive?

[duncanshannon]

re: timing -  i guess i was asking about the timing because i get the impression (from reading other posts) that things drag on for months (and i didnt see anything about covering it up, being damage etc. I guess i read one post where the guy put down 4 or 6 mil plastic and that leaked.     

so you talked about felt for the roof and the flooring... how do you think about the stud walls bare?  are they vertical so they dry off enough to not worry too much?

[MountainDon]

One thing that saved me some time when trying to get the shell complete and dry was to not cut out the windows until later.

If the walls are framed and totally sheathed over all the window and door cutouts, save one door for entering, they can be cut out later. The building felt or house wrap can also be rolled out and secured over the uncut openings. Then when the shell is dry and the windows on hand they can be cut out one at a time, everything flashed and the windows installed.

When you ask about leaving the stud walls bare, do you mean leaving them unsheathed and moving up to the upper floor or roof framing without any sheathing?

Many self builders erect the wall framing unsheathed and install the sheathing once the wall is vertical. If working alone that does have advantages. That's what I did. Constructing the walls flat on the deck and sheathing at least some of it, corners/ends, has advantages too. It may be easier to square up the wall section when it is flat on the deck. That will require more helping hands and backs when raising the sheathed wall though. That would be difficult to do if balloon framing I think. One floor at a time, platform framing, it can work.

That is my opinion FWIW as I do not make my living doing this

[Redoverfarm]

Both the advantex and titanium were left during the winter months when they were exposed to snow and ice with no noticable damage.

Cool!  I'll make sure I file that tip away for consideration at the right time.

is it a lot more expensive?

[/b]

The advantex is a little more expensive than regular 3/4" T&G.  Not having bought any for some time I really couldn't tell you how much. A SWAG would be about $5-7 dollars more per sheet.  But given the peace of mind and the difference that would be the cost of a good tarp why not make sure and have one less thing to worry about.

The titanium is likewise more expensive PSF than 30# felt but the same rationale as the subfloor.

[firefox]

All the careful time planning in the world will be of no avail if the
authorities have fixed time allowances that you are required to follow.
The most important thing to do is make sure that the land you get allows you to do the things that you want to do within your time and money budgets. I can't over emphasize the importance of this.

Don't think, oh they would never stop me from building what I want to build, unless you know beforehand that they can't and wont do that.

There have been many sad tales reported on this site to verify what I am saying.

I am not trying to discourage you, I am just saying to do your homework very carefully.
Good Luck!
Bruce

[rocking23nf]

I put my housewrap on while the wall was sitting on the floor to be built, raised it into place, worked quite well, was much easy then putting it on afterwords

[John Raabe]

We waited to place the septic, drainfield and the house sewer line until the house was shelled in. This kept the big trucks off the drainfield and the house sewer drain line could be set at the right slope angle.

[duncanshannon]

This kept the big trucks off the drainfield and the house sewer drain line could be set at the right slope angle.

What do you do about this if you place the septic first?  Is it more of a guess? 

[duncanshannon]

One thing that saved me some time when trying to get the shell complete and dry was to not cut out the windows until later.

Thats a good idea. I like it.

When you ask about leaving the stud walls bare, do you mean leaving them unsheathed and moving up to the upper floor or roof framing without any sheathing?

Yeah, that is what i was getting at. I feel like I've seen pics of people having their studs exposed in some weather for a while.

[MountainDon]

When you ask about leaving the stud walls bare, do you mean leaving them unsheathed and moving up to the upper floor or roof framing without any sheathing?


Yeah, that is what i was getting at. I feel like I've seen pics of people having their studs exposed in some weather for a while.

I don't have any official documents on the subject but it seems to make more sense to me to complete the foundation, including bracing if building a pier and beam before moving upwards to the floor structure. Then, to me, it makes most sense to fully cpmplete the floor before moving up to the walls.

To my mind those first floor walls should be sheathed to supply rigidity and to make them square and plumb before adding to the structure. Leaving windows not cut to save time and keep dryer before the windows are installed makes sense as mentioned when it is desired to keep dry in time as short as possible. Then the second floor if there is one and finally rafters or roof trusses with each level being completed structurally before moving up. Once again, to me it makes the most sense to complete one level before moving up. Not only for strength and stability of the structure, but it may be easier to correct an error before getting something built on top. Things like staircases could wait if there is safe ladder access. Interior non load bearing walls can be left to later as well if dry in speed is of utmost importance, IMO.

Anyhow as I said that is my view on the matter. I've peppered this post with IMO and "it's my opinion", etc. because that is all this is. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

I'd love to hear from Peg and Don_P on the subject. Anyone else too of course.

[JRR]

This kept the big trucks off the drainfield and the house sewer drain line could be set at the right slope angle.

What do you do about this if you place the septic first?  Is it more of a guess?  

Some folks think that with the advent of smooth-bore plastic piping, the long standing recommendation of 1/8'-1/4" drain slope could be ignored.  Not me.  I stick as closely to the recommendation as my spirit (level) will allow.  Years ago, I happened into one of the published texts on the subject ... by the American Institute of Materials and Testing (IIRC).  Picked it up at a book sale.  Not sure if its still around.  The testing lab used glass pipe and cameras to demonstrate and document what took place when different slopes were used.  Pretty convincing.  Clear water, paper and simulated feces were used to flow through the glass pipes for making the photos.

The drainage field and septic tanks must be lower than the house to allow for the recommended drain slope.  But I have never read that it can be "too low".  That issue is easily handled by one or more vertical drops added to suit conditions.  Of course, I'm not an expert on this subject ... there may be codes today that don't allow for vertical drops in the drain line.  ??

I have usually used a basement/footing digging contractor who is also in the septic field business.  So the basement footings and septic fields kinda come together in time.  Johns right, truck drivers seem compelled to drive over septic fields.  Signage helps ... but a baseball bat is sometimes required to really get the message across.

[firefox]

It all depends on the sinage.

WARNING Sink Holes in this area!
No vehicles over #1000 permitted

Vehicles trapped in sink holes must be
flame cut into manageable pieces and
carried out by hand at owners expense.
Wreckers are not permited in this area.

Something like that tends to get the point across...
Bruce

[rick91351]

My excavator friend who helped me with my septic and drain field claims he is going to bring in huge landscape rocks before I start building.  Then the stupid delivery truck drivers and subs can just bounce off them or get high centered on them.     But they ain't driving over the septic nor drain field.   

[Don_P]

 
Now there's a good idea! I was going to suggest silt fence but that is a good bit more "boilerplate". I've helped pull one truck out of the tank, and yup we had told him exactly where it was 

I agree with MD, square, plumb and brace each element before moving to the next one, its the dimension you forget to lock that comes back to bite you.

[firefox]

Now that is a brilliant idea!
Bruce

[duncanshannon]

hi folks-

I'm having my master plan come together for me... (insert evil laugh)

I'm realizing that i have ample opportunity to practice and learn before starting any sort of cabin project.  Practice opportunities include finishing a basement, doing some interior wall removal/patching in a bedroom, doing some other interior projects as part of a bigger kitchen remodel and finishing up some work that someone else was doing *for* me (rewindow/reside/new window box).  First project would be to finish a the insulation/light electric/sheet rock work for a new custom built window box and finishing other replacement windows (that were cut to a different size than their orig).

My question is... would it be appropriate to use this forum for help get those non-im-building-my-cabin-project but rather the pre-amble to that project?  Or... would that be better for some other DIY forum.  I want to make sure that i dont abuse/over-use the forum here!

thanks!

[MountainDon]

If it's building/renovating/repairing it's all related so jump in with both feet.  The General Forum would suit that sort of thing.

[Squirl]

I apologize for not answering you question earlier.  One of my favorite books for building is "The Solar House: Passive Heating and Cooling" by Daniel Chiras.  I also liked "The Stone builder's Primer: A Step-By-Step Guide for Owner-Builders " by Charles Long.  I can't remember the exact book I got that data from.  I have whole shelves.  When people in my family heard I was going to undertake this project, the books started rolling in.  I have books for almost every kind of building from Stone to Straw bale.