14x36 in Northwest Arkansas

[jdhen]

Thanks, Don.  That's exactly what I needed.   
One question:  How much overlap on each upper section?  I think on roofing they say 4-5 inches.  About the same for walls?

[Don_P]

I'm going to step back to the ridgeBOARD splice for a minute just to help clear it up for others reading. It's not load bearing, the splice is not critical. a ridgeBOARD is simply something to nail rafters to. I scarf is fine if it floats your boat, I splice in a bay between rafters and cover both sides with blocks that run from rafter to rafter, some guys do a V cut. But the thing to remember is that this is not a beam and no joinery you do will make it one. I didn't want anyone thinking a scarf would somehow turn this into a load bearing ridge  .

[MountainDon]

How much overlap on each upper section? 

Since it's vertical 2 - 3 inches should suffice.

Since I had a nine foot height to cover I didn't worry about how much to over lap the felt on the walls. We overlapped by a foot or so and used 4 full width strips down the sides. I could have cut a 3 foot wide piece in hal and overlap less but it was easier to use the full width.

I you have an actual 8 foot height you could do the wall with three strips with 6 inch overlaps.

[poppy]

Sorry if I'm highjacking your thread Jesse, but Don_P's comment:

I didn't want anyone thinking a scarf would somehow turn this into a load bearing ridge  .

prompted a question.

What would be the easiesl way to extend a cantilevered joist about 16"?  I was thinking about a scarf joint. That's the situation I have for a joist for the bump out.

[Bobmarlon]

Im no engineer but I would guess the easiest way would be to sister the joists by nailing another piece of 2 by that runs back 32 inches and 16 inches further in the direction you want to go. 

[MountainDon]

Let's see if I understand correctly. There's a floor joist (or more) that is already cantilevered, and you wish to extend the amount of the cantilever?  

_______________________
      X                    X

where X = the support beams and the red line = the amount to be extended?  


Can't be done like illustrated. So I hope I misinterpreted what you mean. A drawing would help.

The cantilever could be increased but would need to be done with an extra piece of joist material that would extend back into the main section of the floor: about 1/4 cantilever to 3/4 back and supported by the beams, plus secured to the main joist.

If the joist was not already cantilevered you would still have the same problem. A scarf joint is not structurally strong enough for extending floor joists.

[poppy]

Yea, Don your sketch is about right.  I was just trying to figure out a way to avoid a joist extension that went all the way back to the other beam.

I understand that a scarf joint would not be as strong as the joist, but that much strength is not necessarily required since the joist needing extending is between two engineered I beams that are full length and tie into a 6x6 sill timber.  The extended joist would only support some floor that is within the bump out that won't really have any load on it since it will be below a built in seat.

Bob's solution may be the easiest but with a little longer sister joist.

I don't want to clutter Jesse's thread any longer so I will pose more questions or possible solutions in General on in my build thread.

[harry51]

I used some 1 inch and some 1 1/4 inch button cap nails. The 1 inch were long enough to do the job but were a pain to hold in place to nail. The longer ones were easier to hold.

When the nails are so short they're hard to hold while you start them, stick 'em (one at a time) between the teeth of your pocket comb to make a handle. Saves the digits!

[Don_P]

Another way to hold short nails is to turn your hand over, palm up. Put the nail between your first two fingers, head between the pads of your fingers, point down between the fingernails. Now when you hit it you aren't mashing your fingernails.

[Redoverfarm]

Another way to hold short nails is to turn your hand over, palm up. Put the nail between your first two fingers, head between the pads of your fingers, point down between the fingernails. Now when you hit it you aren't mashing your fingernails.

Thats what I do when driving button/cap nails. Even if you hit the fingers no fowl.

[jdhen]

The weather has been cooperating and should continue for the next 7 days or so.  I think it has rained for the last time inside the house  . 
We hopefully should have the roof fully sheathed by the end of the week

A few days ago we placed the barge rafters and lookouts.  I was planning to install them as a unit as Redoverfarm suggested but it proved to be too much weight for just my wife and me.  Instead we rigged up a couple of holders using clamps and scrap pieces of wood to support the barge without either of us having to hold the ends. 


This way my wife could steady the ladder as I climbed to the top to nail the barge to the ridge board (we couldn't stop to takes pics of this :-) This was the first time in the building process where I felt true fear!  It was only 23 feet but the ladder was at full extension and didn't feel all that stable.  Plus, it wasn't tall enough to rest against the barge and instead I set it against the temporary ridge beam support so that I had to lean back and look straight up while I hammered...not easy.
I'm sure someone will explain an easier and safer way to to this but it was all I could come up with and at least it's done!

Since then we've sheathed 2/3's of the north side gable and started on the south. 





I'm saving the very top for last! The 12/12 is very steep.  I'm glad to have the shed roofs off the gable.  They've made it  relatively easy to sheath as they provide a stable staging area.  The one part of the south gable that lacks a shed roof has been very difficult and scary and I would have hired out the sheathing if not for the sheds.

[Redoverfarm]

jdhen when you get to the last course I would either nail a cleat (2X material) to stand on or use roof jacks. You should be able to attach a rope and pull the sheet(from the opposite side) up to where it will rest on the previous. Then adjust and secure.  I might have missed your post whether you are using shingles or metal. Either one will be fun. One more than the other.  If shingled then a couple pair of roof jacks would be worth their weight in gold.  Nice progress.  

[jhen]

Everything looks really fine.
Did you lose the safety harness? Just wondering.
POP

[jdhen]

Red- I got the roof jacks plus I ordered 2 ladder hooks and I have a safety harness.  After hearing of Bob's slip off of his roof I figured I couldn't be too careful.
We plan on using metal which I think we'll hire out.  We're still debating on whether or not to spend the extra $ for standing seam ( I love the idea of hidden fasteners).  I installed the metal roof on our pole barn but that pitch wasn't quite 5/12.  I really can't imagine doing the 12/12.


I've got a question for everyone about collar ties.  I've read several places that they're ideally located at 2/3's between top plate and peak.  If I stick to that then my ceiling in the loft will be about 7'-4".  Does anyone think I would compromise the strength of the ties if I raised them enough to get 7'-8" or even 8 feet?

[jdhen]

No, Pop. I didn't lose the harness.  It's in use when I can't stand on the shed roof.  Don't worry, I'm being careful! 

[Don_P]

I'm not sure if we're on the same page here so I'll describe both.

Rafter ties that prevent the roof from spreading are ideally at the wall plate and can be floor or ceiling joists. They may be raised as much as 1/3 of the height of the roof but rafters need to be upsized as they are raised. Do not raise them above the lower third of height.

Collar ties or ridge straps that hold the rafters together at the peak against uplift (think of a high wind getting inside and trying to blow the roof apart) are located in the upper third of roof height, can be tight under the ridge or can be metal straps over the ridge.

I usually install the lookouts before the fly (barge, verge..). I install them a couple of inches long then snap a line down them and cut them off in a straight line in place then attach the fly to them. That way I'm basically climbing a ladder of lookouts while I'm up there. I'm very conscious of where my weight is while doing this and keep myself centered over the notched rafter.

[speedfunk]

Nice job so far.  I like the shed rooms visually too on your shelter.

We to are trying to decide between standing seam and wondered what you found the price difference to be?  I think our tin roof was around $1 a sq foot for our firstday.


Jeff

[jdhen]

Yes, Don, I do mean collar ties as you describe them.  I just wasn't sure that when I read that they should be located at 2/3's of the distance above the top plate that if I placed them closer to 3/4 above top plate that that wouldn't compromise their usefulness.   It seems like you indicate that they should be in the upper third so I'm guessing you would say that it would be ok for me to raise them a few inches higher than I originally had planned.
I can see how installing the lookouts first would have made things a bit easier but it was the cutting with a heavy saw that worried me!  But having that lookout "ladder" would have been safer.  I've now used it extensively as I sheathe the roof.

[jdhen]

Thanks, Jeff.
I haven't had any hard bids yet for the roofing but in talking with several contractors I'm finding prices at about $180-200 a square for a screw down roof and $350-400 for standing seam.  So, what's that- 2-4 dollars a sq foot?  Just about double for the standing seam.  But I really hate leaks and I have a relative who had the neoprene washers go bad after only a few years.  I think it had a lot to do with how they were installed (overtightened).  I just like the fact that the screws are under the metal instead of going through the metal!  We'll see....

[speedfunk]

Yeah... the idea of replacing all those screws doesn't really excite myself either.  I would imagine it's just a matter of time before the suns uv rays bake the washers dry , they crack and leak. 

That price is for an install right? 

Thanks for the pricing...that helps.  Standing seam is supposed to last a long long time.  Looked at copper (way to much lol) , aluminium might be an option. 

I wonder what the difference in installation time and ease is?  Our roof is 3/12 by design so we can do it ourself's.  Roofs like yours scare me, not a big fan of heights, esp 12/12 ....   

[jdhen]

Yes, it's materials and labor.
You might look into the factory cut snap lock standing seam panels.  Some of them have a few exposed fasteners but it's still a step up from screw down.  I'd consider using those and doing it myself if the pitch wasn't so steep.


Placed the last sheathing panel today on the gable so I'm thrilled to be done with that!

[OlJarhead]

I'm hoping to get my walls finished this weekend (crossing fingers) and if so will begin the roof framing.  I've not worked on a roof in a long time and while I was a sure footed young man at 260lbs and 44 I'm thinking the harness for my treestand might come in handy   Some rope, a D-Ring and a good hitch to the witch on the Jeep on the opposite side might be a good idea!

Now, the roof jacks I'm interested in and will have to go look for some as well as the ladder hooks.

I need to get a couple ladders too while I'm at it.

My plan is to use the loft as much as possible for the framing and to have my son hold sheets from at the first stage of sheeting (he can be inside and assist securing sheets while I position to install.

I've also got to look at your design -- I like it.  Did you use 14' rafters instead of the 12' ones?  Also, I'm assuming you notched the gable end rafters for 2x4's to install the ladder for the gabled ends to extend the roof?  I also like this idea as it helps with shading in the summer and keep raini, snow and icicles out of the loft windows and away from the lower windows in the winter etc.

Now if I could print all this out ...hmmm

[jdhen]

Oljarhead- Get the ladder hooks.  They were the most help of any of the equipment I used.  They're made by qual-craft.  Some ace hardware stores stock them but since none do around here I ordered them off of amazon.  They cost about $25 each.  You're supposed to use 2 per ladder but I cheated since I needed 2 ladders and I only weigh about 145 lb (probably less since the building started - note to self- stop to eat more)
The harness is also a great idea.  Not only does it make you feel safer, but it also gives you a rope to leverage yourself higher or lower.  For me, the roof jacks only came in handy for the area that lacked a shed roof.  Otherwise, they would have ended up in the way of my longer ladder.  You may want to use them at least along the lower edge of your roof once you get the first row in place so you can stage from there.  Then, the second row could be brought up through the rafters from the loft.  For the last row, you rip the sheets down to about 36 inches (of course, that will depend on how much overhang you decide) and those have to be brought up from the eaves because there's not enough room left to bring it through the rafters.
If you add subfacia, you can use a scrap block and clamp as a stop so you can position the first sheets.  It's a lot easier to do that then have someone holding the sheet from above. 
I did pre-notch the gable end rafters for the lookouts although I wish I hadn't because I changed the length of my eave overhang after doing this, forgetting that it would change where the sheathing meets.  Now instead of breaking over the center of the lookout, the gap meets a 1/4 inch off the lookout.   And I plan on open cornice. Oh well, that's what happens when you're a rookie

The rafters are 12 ft 2x10's.  Once trimmed they measure 10'-11".

One  caveat: All of this "advice" is coming from someone who's done this exactly one time.  I'm no expert, but I am proud of the fact that it's done and everything is completely square 

Good luck!

[OlJarhead]

Great thanks!

Not sure I understood the change on the lookouts (eaves?)....I want to extend my roof beyond the gabled end wall for an eave and out over the sides like yours (I wasn't going to at first).

So the notching out of the end rafter seemed like a brilliant way to accomplish the ladder building and make it strong.  No?  What would another option be?

I've ordered my materials (delivery Monday) and I'm blooming stoked now!  I've also stolen your pictures so I can ponder them some more.

While I used to frame years ago, I've forgotten so much I am a rookie once again so don't feel bad.  Besides, your roof work is inspiring me!  Now I can't wait to crank up the saw and get the hammer ringing!

Yonderosa, you busy Monday? hehe

[jdhen]

Sorry, I didn't make that clear.  I was wishing I hadn't pre-cut the notches  in the rafters before installing them as opposed to cutting them individually after they were placed.  The problem for me was that I made changes to the overhang after cutting them.  I had intended for the lookouts to be in the right place so that the sheathing panels would butt together over them but that didn't work when I changed my overhang distance.  The panels now start 2 1/2 inches further down than I'd originally intended so instead of breaking over the lookout they are 1/2 inch or so below.
I would still recommend ganging them together and pre cutting.....just make sure you know what your overhang is before.  And if you plan on soffits it probably doesn't matter anyway.  Maybe an expert can chime in here.  I just care because my eaves will be open.
Really exposed plywood under the eaves isn't ideal anyway.  I should have used a tongue and groove board but no product I looked at matched the 1/2 inch plywood that I'd already purchased so I just decided to go with it.  Hopefully it will hold paint 

So, yes I think building the lookout ladder is the way to go. 
Have fun framing!