14x36 in Northwest Arkansas

OlJarhead · November 06, 2009, 09:16:59 PM

Aha, I understand. It's important to frame the ladder on 24" centers from the bottom of the rafter to the top so that when the sheeting meets at 4' there is a ladder rung to nail to thus making more secure. I think that's what you mean -- makes sense.

Good advise all around. I am however, having trouble finding a roofing ladder but will at least be able to frame the roof and get one row of sheeting down at the least I think. This provides a framework for a tarp/tent roof if I have to -- desperation.

Then with some luck I can get the rest done over the next few weeks.

Don_P · November 06, 2009, 11:18:14 PM

You certainly aren't the first one to miss the lookouts. I've used clips there just like the rest of the roof or put a vertical 2x alongside the overhang side of the lookout if there was soffit under there.

This method is fast and generally works however since we have people reading from all over, it doesn't work everywhere. Best practice and in high snow load areas especially, standing the lookouts up on edge over a wall or dropped gable truss is preferred. Its the difference between loading a board flatways or on edge. Like many things...it depends.

November 08, 2009, 10:30:15 PM

Very nice progress!

jdhen · November 14, 2009, 07:26:11 AM

Thanks, NM Shooter. I feel like I've come a long way since you instructed me to repeat the "not making furniture" statement. I get a good laugh now when I look at my concerns in the early part of the thread. I guess building your own house makes you grow up quick

Made a little more progress this week on the house but adding infrastructure became the main focus.
I finished the sub facia and sheathing on the south porch.

Added collar ties

2x8's were what I had on hand so that's what I used.
My septic guy showed up and had some time this week so he began the install on the septic system. He's turned out to be a great resource and has been very generous with his time. He cost a little more than other installers I'd talked to but I could tell he knew what he was doing so I went with him. With all the additional work he's done it's likely made him much cheaper than the others. First, he ordered extra rock so I could improve drainage on the uphill side of the house.

Then he convinced me that now was a great time to trench and lay the service cable from the meter to the house. I was going to let an electrician handle that but he explained the process and it seemed doable. I tried to buy the supplies from electric supply company but they could tell I really didn't know what I was doing so they wanted me to double check on what I needed before buying. That proved to be a real benefit because I called an electrician who I haven't even committed to yet and he came out and looked at the site and ordered the supplies for me and saved me more than 80 cents a foot on the cable and who knows how much on the conduit. He had no problem letting me do the install and didn't charge me a thing for his time. I think I have found my electrician.
My wife and I got a good workout threading the conduit over the service wire. Just when I thought it couldn't get worse, threading the 90 sweeps just about killed me! Still, we managed to get it done and it was a relief to bury it all in the ground!

The metal roof is next so I hope my good luck with contractors continues. I get my first bid today.

RainDog · November 14, 2009, 08:59:50 AM

Very nice. I had to pay contractors as consultants to advise me a few times when I did my Berkeley renovation. Boy, they charge a fortune out there!

Your countryside looks just like mine here. I'm in NE OK, so it comes as no big surprise, though.

Moving right along there!

Parks

December 07, 2009, 08:42:52 PM

We took a week off for Thanksgiving and a trip to Texas to see my wife's family but we're back at it now. The time off felt rejuvenating.
We've started felting the house and installing windows. I couldn't get it as tight as Mountain Don's and then when it rained yesterday it drooped even more

Oh well, it should still do the job.

These are basically interior windows as they look in on what will be the sun porch so I haven't felted or taped around them.

The view

We've also started framing in some rooms on the north porch section.

We were hoping to have the standing seam roof placed in the next week or so but our roofer called us and gave us the unfortunate news that one of his main employees fell from a roof last week and is hospitalized with a serious head injury. That's put a delay on his schedule.
I've taken delivery of the loft decking-2x6 t&G. We should start laying it down this weekend.

MountainDon · December 07, 2009, 09:01:26 PM

Quote from: jdhen on December 07, 2009, 08:42:52 PM
I couldn't get it as tight as Mountain Don's and then when it rained yesterday it drooped even more Oh well, it should still do the job.

It'll tighten up as it dries. Once the siding is on nobody will ever know.

Redoverfarm · December 07, 2009, 11:06:31 PM

jdhen if you are going to stain the floor/ceiling of the T&G it might be wise to do so prior to install. I don't know whether I mentioned in your thread previously or not. If natural then there is not a problem with pre-fiinishing before install. If stained afterward the joints will undoubtly open and there will be an area that is unfinished appear. I am not sure if you mentioned before of your intentions but thought I would throw that out.

jdhen · December 08, 2009, 06:37:33 AM

Quote from: MountainDon on December 07, 2009, 09:01:26 PM
Quote from: jdhen on December 07, 2009, 08:42:52 PM
I couldn't get it as tight as Mountain Don's and then when it rained yesterday it drooped even more Oh well, it should still do the job.

It'll tighten up as it dries. Once the siding is on nobody will ever know.

That's true, Don, but it will be exposed for a while

For the life of me, I can't figure out how you got yours so tight!

Quote from: Redoverfarm on December 07, 2009, 11:06:31 PM
jdhen if you are going to stain the floor/ceiling of the T&G it might be wise to do so prior to install. I don't know whether I mentioned in your thread previously or not. If natural then there is not a problem with pre-fiinishing before install. If stained afterward the joints will undoubtly open and there will be an area that is unfinished appear. I am not sure if you mentioned before of your intentions but thought I would throw that out.

Red- I don't plan any stain. I'd like to leave it natural but I was reading ( I think speedfunk's page) that pine can yellow? I'm not sure I know what that means exactly. I feel like I should seal it with something but I really want to use a natural product. Another poster mentioned linseed oil but others have told me it would be too tacky for a floor. Not sure what to do... $:-\$

December 08, 2009, 07:39:09 AM

Quote from: jdhen on December 08, 2009, 06:37:33 AM

Quote from: Redoverfarm on December 07, 2009, 11:06:31 PM
jdhen if you are going to stain the floor/ceiling of the T&G it might be wise to do so prior to install. I don't know whether I mentioned in your thread previously or not. If natural then there is not a problem with pre-fiinishing before install. If stained afterward the joints will undoubtly open and there will be an area that is unfinished appear. I am not sure if you mentioned before of your intentions but thought I would throw that out.
Red- I don't plan any stain. I'd like to leave it natural but I was reading ( I think speedfunk's page) that pine can yellow? I'm not sure I know what that means exactly. I feel like I should seal it with something but I really want to use a natural product. Another poster mentioned linseed oil but others have told me it would be too tacky for a floor. Not sure what to do... $:-\$

Mimwax Polycrylic I don't believe it will yellow the pine. I have been using it for a number of years and I prefer it over others. A little on the costly side in comparison to oil based but so much easier to use and the drying time is probably 1/4 of oil.

jdhen · December 09, 2009, 07:02:30 AM

Thanks, John. I'll look into the Minwax.
I've read in another post where you screwed through the tongue to fasten the decking down. Is it necessary to use a counter sink bit to drill the pilot hole and recess the screw head? I wasn't sure if the head would get in the way of the next groove if not recessed. I have 3 and 3.25 inch deck screws- I'm guessing this is what you used?
Also, did you use a clamp to pull the boards very tightly together before screwing or is it better to just take the bow out of the board and snug it gently to the next one? The reason I ask is that for the t&g advantec floor, it was spaced just right so that the tongue did not insert completely into the groove. I suppose that's because it is likely to be exposed to wet weather and much more expansion and contraction but I didn't know if it's prudent to do the same to the 2x6 decking.

Redoverfarm · December 09, 2009, 07:33:01 AM

jdhen I used a multitude of means to lay my T&G down. It depends on the size of your room and the condition of the T&G. For mine I had prefinished and they did not retain their original alignment afterwards meaning that either the board were not completely dry ( appeared to be) or the fact they were left uninstalled for a long period of time. Anyway my room was 15'2" wide X 22'long and the T&G was laid parrallel to the 22' length.

Depending on the condition of your T&G generally it will go together a little tight but by cutting a corresponding block (scrap) to match the tounge profile and hammering will usually tighten the joint. For some stubborn board I used some pipe clamps to draw them together. They also make a joist puller which is sort of a cantelever device which fits over the joist and when pulled pushes the board at that location tight. But I found that if the beams are exposed they will leave a mark on both sides of the exposed beam( actually made for floor joist where the joist will be hidden). I used a piece of thin stock between the pins against the beams and the beams themself. But if you go to find one they are normally made for 1-1/2" demensions so you will need the additional piece to fit the 3-1/2", If they are just a little bowed then a chissel drove into the top of the beam against the tounge and pulled will bring them in line.

The standard flooring nailer will not work. There is not enough nail to hold in the beams. Maybe the staple floor nailer will work with long staples. I opted for deck screws which actually work well but it was time consuming. There was no need to pre-drill with standard deck screws if they were placed properly. I put them in at a 45 deg angle (more or less) starting at the intersection of the tounge and the verticle portion going up to the face. You can also move up the face a little more if you can get the screw tip to bite ( start at a level decent and then just bend it up as you start setting the screw).

Not sure what your T&G condition is but they normally mill the T&G to a true side that usually will be the V-groove. The plank side will not be as true fitting so there may be gaps in the loft side when in fact the touge and groove is depressed on the V-groove side. For me that was not a problem and it made the floor appear to be rustic for the cabin.

Sorry for the length of the post, I just wanted to make sure that I didn't miss anything. Probably did anyway but that is the meat of the subject. Anything else just ask.

Also Zinszer(sp?) makes a similar product as Mimwax at a lower cost but I haven't tried it before so I am not sure what the results might be. The last gallon (of many) that I bought was about $36 for Polycrylic.

jdhen · December 09, 2009, 08:11:43 AM

Your post was not too long- that's exactly what I needed to know! Thanks very much.
My T&G is as you described with the v groove underneath. They are #1 lumber but there is some wane which they always placed at the v groove side. The plank sides looked quite good although there were a few small knots that have fallen out and will need to be filled. What is best to use for that? There are various wood fillers but I've read about latex, lacquer-based, epoxy etc and don't know what would be best. Did you need to use anything to repair your T&G?

Redoverfarm · December 09, 2009, 08:21:09 AM

Jdhen I did not try to repair any defects in mine. If the knots have completely fell out it will take a good bit of filler and I am not sure whether it will hold in the joint with the movement of the wood. If they are not real big you could drill out the defected areas and insert plugs, to the corresponding drill size to create a new "knot hole" of course sanding flush. On defects within the body or center they would probably hold filler. I have used various kinds and some work better than others but to single out one particular brand or kind it is usually what I have on hand that get's used.

Maybe Peg or Don_P will chime in and give you their preference.

December 11, 2009, 01:07:12 PM

Nice progress on the house and beautiful part of the country. Im sure it feels great to be almost water tight. I was wondering about rafter ties. I see you have collar ties to prevent up lift but no rafter ties to prevent spreading forces. From the information I've read, I thought that if the floor joists of the loft did not directly tie into the rafters, creating a rafter tie/floor joist, per the stock little house plans, then those walls would be prone to spreading. I understand that the bottom 8 foot of the walls are fine because of the loft floor joists placed, but am concerned that the 4ft knee wall extending into the loft may be affected by outward thrust. beavers had told me that if i wanted the extra loft head room that i should go with a ridge beam instead of a ridge board, so that the beam would take most of the load of the roof. the ridge beam is supported by posts that take the roof load all the way down to the foundation. i hope im wrong and that your roofing system is structurally sound as is. someone please correct me. by the way, any good flyfishing in those parts?

jdhen · December 11, 2009, 08:37:21 PM

These are questions that came to my attention only after I began to build the roof. I am a complete novice and have been simply trusting of the plans that I bought. In John's plans he lists the option for a raised roof at the loft by increasing the sidewall height. In the description he notes that the double top plate, collar ties and loft joists all help to form a rigid triangle the resits the outward forces. Incidentally, my father-in-law is an architect and he concurs with this.
I know that more than a few posters feel that a ridge beam is the appropriate way to do this. I have no choice but to continue with what I'm doing and hope for the best.
I do feel good about the fact that others have gone before me and are having success. Micky's cabin is 20ft wide with 12 ft sidewalls like mine and he's used what looks like collar beams on 4 ft centers. He framed his roof with a ridge board. http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=982.60
Paul Alton did what I am doing with a 14 ft wide and 12 ft sidewalls. Again, ridge board and collar ties.
http://www.paulalton.com/updates/shopstudio2009.html
Considerations went with 10 ft sidewalls and no collar ties. And there are likely other examples.
The other thing that I feel good about is the fact that I have shed roofs on either side of the gables. It's bound to impart some rigidity and also help to resist outward forces. Each side is attached at a little more than 28 inches below the top plate.
I can say that after reading others opinions I became a bit afraid that my house that I've been working so hard on would fall down on me someday. I am going to add some additional bracing when I frame in the walls in the loft. I plan on using metal straps attached to the rafters just above the top plate which I will run diagonally back to the loft beams. (each 2x4 wall is located on top of a beam) This will create a triangular brace that I hope will also help to resist the outward forces. The three walls that I will do this on are mainly toward the center of the building where spreading is most at risk.
Hope this answers your question.

lshallenb · December 11, 2009, 11:17:52 PM

That makes sense. Good idea to use those straps. I get the idea of what your saying but if you get a chance to post up a picture of those straps when you get them installed I would appreciated that. Like they say, a pictures worth a thousand words. I guess alot of it depends on roof loads as well. I doubt you get much snow down there. I really like the way the loft looks with the 4 ft knee walls by the way, pretty roomy. I really want to avoid using a ridge beam if possible due to price, extra footings for the support posts, and im not sure how id get the heavy sucker up there without a crane or something. Anyways, glad to hear that others have been framing their roofs like yours without any problems.

glenn kangiser · December 11, 2009, 11:37:18 PM

Personally I would not worry at all with the 4 foot kneewalls as long as they are semi-balloon framed with the let in ledger as you have done.

If they were platform framed with a short 4 foot wall on top of the 8' wall, then you would have something to worry about. That would create a hinge point that would be a problem.

Sassy · December 11, 2009, 11:41:05 PM

Lookin good jdhen! You're gonna have a really nice home for you & your family!

jdhen · December 12, 2009, 02:33:43 PM

Glenn- thanks for the reassurance. I remember reading discussions along that line in the past. I feel confident that I'm building a stong and long lasting home.

Sassy- thanks for the comments. My wife and I can't wait to move in!!

Ishallenb- I will post the pics as I build. Also- I forgot to answer one of your questions- I'm not a fisherman so I'm not sure about the fly fishing. I think most of the best fishing is on the larger lakes in the region. There may be some trout fishing on the buffalo river.

December 12, 2009, 04:04:04 PM

I wouldn't be worried if it was in my back yard. I do agree the porch roofs will act as diaphragms to stiffen the kneewalls. The balloon framed kneewalls add considerable resistance to the potential thrust.

One way I can explain what little I know is to see how much potential stress is in a raised tie if the rafter bottoms sat on roller skates. In that case if there was a total load of 25 lbs/square foot there would be about 700 lbs of vertical load sitting on each rafter pair. If the tie was across the bottom of the rafters there would be 350 lbs of tension in the tie connection. Think about the leverage against that connection as the tie is raised... Raising the tie up to 2' below the ridge there would be about 1225 lbs of tension in the connection. Nails are good for about 100 lbs each optimistically. If they go through and are clinched they pick up about 20% more IIRC. This is beyond codebook but if there were about 14 nails in each end of the tie, that would restrain the thrust not counting on the additional strength of the roof diaphragm, the kneewall, or the porch roof.

tinybuilder · December 13, 2009, 02:07:47 AM

Quote from: jdhen on November 14, 2009, 07:26:11 AM
Then he convinced me that now was a great time to trench and lay the service cable from the meter to the house. I was going to let an electrician handle that but he explained the process and it seemed doable. I tried to buy the supplies from electric supply company but they could tell I really didn't know what I was doing so they wanted me to double check on what I needed before buying. That proved to be a real benefit because I called an electrician who I haven't even committed to yet and he came out and looked at the site and ordered the supplies for me and saved me more than 80 cents a foot on the cable and who knows how much on the conduit. He had no problem letting me do the install and didn't charge me a thing for his time. I think I have found my electrician.
My wife and I got a good workout threading the conduit over the service wire. Just when I thought it couldn't get worse, threading the 90 sweeps just about killed me! Still, we managed to get it done and it was a relief to bury it all in the ground!

YIKES,jd... I wouldn't have had the balls to even try to put those wires in anything smaller than 3 inch conduit! I admire your tenacity. Your place is looking great!

Take Care,

Greg

jdhen · December 14, 2009, 09:51:05 PM

Thanks for the compliment, Greg. Had I known it would be so hard I would have purchased some 3 inch conduit! Hey, at least it's done.

With the help of a friend I installed the woodstove chimney and built a chase around it. My roofer suggested that the chase would be easier to flash and be less maintenance. He will wrap it with metal shingles that will look like metal cinder blocks.
I'm pleased with how it came out. It anchors the double wall pipe quite well. With the cold we've been having I can't wait to get the stove in place!

Just a few more windows and a couple of doors and I'll be dried in! The roofer should set the underlayment tomorrow.

speedfunk · December 15, 2009, 09:31:32 PM

Nice job on the electric. That service wire is thick and bulky. You got it though and no wires to the house

. I'm happy your almost dried in.. your place looks really cool. I like how you stopped the roof from going all the way over on the front porch as well. It adds a neat dimension to the place.

jdhen · December 15, 2009, 10:25:58 PM

Thanks, Jeff. I've been admiring your progress as well. You decide yet on the type of metal for your roof? Our standing seam should be installed next week. A little over 14 sq for $5500. The screw down would have been around $3800. I think it's worth the extra $.

We decided on the shortened porch because we didn't want too much shade in the living room. It looks a little different but we like that we get direct sunlight in the room during the winter until about 2:30pm. Where we live now there are long overhangs at the eaves and it's way too dark in many parts of the house.

1 door and 2 windows to go!