Need some electrical help

[ScottA]

I need to work out my electrical and could use some feedback.

Here's the plan:



The pannel will be in the closet wall opposite side of the Dryer. I'm thinking pannel layout like this:

200 amp main

1. Dryer 220v
2. Washer 110v
3. Microwave 110v
4. Kitchen recps. 110v. this would also include one recp. for the tankless W/H which is outside.
5. Lights
6. All other recps.
7. Feed to shop (8x16')110v 20 amps? (lights and recps only...maybe a window a/c)
8. Feed to guest house (200 sf) 220v 100 amps?

CFL's will be used for all the lights. Can I combine all the lights on one circut and all the recps on another. The kitchen recps will get their own seperate circut. The kitchen stove/oven and water heater are propane. Should the window A/C, fridge and the washer be on seperate breakers or can they go on the kitchen circut? Planning one GFCI outlet on the veranda and one at the vanity in the bathroom. Can these be combined with the other outlets or do they need a seperate breaker? What sizes should the breakers be?

[MountainDon]

I have to go to work right now, but will check back later. For now though let me say that IF it was ME...
I'd probably put the a/c on it's own.
Lights on 2 circuits, so the whole place doesn't go dark if a breaker trips.
Maybe put a few receptacles on each lighting circuit.
The fridge would have it's own.
The microwave it's own.

I'll check back later.

[John_C]

I'm drawing on old brain cells here but there used to be a "points" system.

A 20A circuit could have 12 points max.  15A 8 points. 
Each duplex receptacle was 2 points. each light fixture was 1 point.  Max of 2 - duplex receptacles  per circuit on the kitchen splash (These may now need to be GFIC) Bath & outdoor outlets need to be GFIC.
Major Appliances AC, fridge, washer, dryer, WH etc each on their own circuit.

It's been a LONG time so you might want to confirm those numbers.

I wouldn't put all the lights or outlets on a single circuit. Hope it helps... John

[Willy]

The panel will be in the closet wall opposite side of the Dryer(the panel should not be in a closet. You need a minium of 3 ft square clearance in front of it to work and full head room from the ceiling down. Think of standing in front of the panel working on the wiring, sliping with a screw driver and having a short circuit happen. A flame can shoot out of a panel 3 ft no problem. This is just one of the reasons to have lots of room in front of a panel. Hang a picture over the panel if seeing it is a problem outsde of the closet. You also need a light near the panel to see.) I'm thinking panel layout like this:

200 amp main

1. Dryer 220v = 30 amp cir
2. Washer 110v = 20 amp cir
3. Microwave 110v = 15 amp cir
4. Kitchen recps. 110v. this would also include one recp. for the tankless W/H which is outside. = You need 2-20 amp appliance cirs for the kitchen and they should be split up on the counter top. You can supply power for the reffer off these and both need to be GFIs
5. Lights = You can use one 15amp circuit per 500 sq ft in the building
6. All other recps. = Bedroom plugs/lights need to be on a Arc Fault Circuit Breaker.
7. Feed to shop (8x16')110v 20 amps? (lights and recps only...maybe a window a/c) = Any plugs that are above a concrete floor or outside need to be GFI in your shop. I would split the lights and plugs on seperate circuits so if you trip a plug circuit your lights do not go out while using the tool.
8. Feed to guest house (200 sf) 220v 100 amps? = That would work but is a lot of power for just lights and plugs unless you have a kitchen, washer, dryer, heat ect other wise I would just run a 50-60 amp service there.

CFL's will be used for all the lights. Can I combine all the lights on one circut and all the recps on another(yes 15 amps except the bedrooms they need to be on a Arc Fault Breaker). The kitchen recps will get their own seperate circut. The kitchen stove/oven and water heater are propane. Should the window A/C, fridge=(on kitchen counter top plug cir) and the washer=(own 20 amp cir) be on seperate breakers (A/C=yes it is a appliciance and needs a 20 amp breaker with a single 20 amp 120 volt outlet) or can they go on the kitchen circut? Planning one GFCI outlet on the veranda and one at the vanity in the bathroom(bathroom plug need to be on it's own 20 amp circuit not hooked to the lights). Can these be combined with the other outlets or do they need a seperate breaker(you can tap the outside plugs off inside lighting circuits but the plug will need to be a GFI)? What sizes should the breakers be?

Hope this answers your questions. Mark

[ScottA]

Thanks Mark. I was hoping you'd help me out. 

[MountainDon]

FWIW. my reference book (NEC 2005) also states that the kitchen area must have a ceiling light controlled by wall switch. Ditto on bedrooms, except it states that in lieu of a ceiling light a switched outlet may be used. If you're required to meet 2005  or later NEC you should check on those. A light above the kitchen sink is also mandated.

It also lists a 20 amp circuit as necessary for a house with a single bathroom, for the bathroom only. That receptacle must be GFCI protected either using a receptacle type GFCI and wiring everything else (lights, etc) downstream from that, or a GFCI breaker in the panel to feed the bathroom.

Receptacles must have no more than 12 feet between them, measured straight along the walls.

If I was installing a ceiling light I'd use one of the ceiling box units that's approved for mounting a ceiling fan, just in case you want one down the road. Plus I'd add the extra wire needed to control the light and fan separately from a wall switch, and install the wall box even if you don't use it right away. I added fan to most of the rooms in the house and it was nice that they were pre-wired.

[ScottA]

I'm going to follow Marks recomendations. I'll put the bathroom plug on a seperate circut with GFI. I'm going to drop a fan from the cathedral ceiling in the center of the main room. I'll want speed direction and light controls at the wall. Need to figure that out still I guess. I'll put the sleeping loft on a seperate circut as well with arc fault breaker Mark recomended. Not sure where I can move the pannel since most of the wall space is taken up already... I don't want it outside. The guest house will have A/C, heat, fridge and microwave. No stove or washer/dryer so I guess 50 amp will be ok for that? Could I split the plugs and lights in a sub pannel at the shop so I only need to pull one wire?

[ScottA]

Oh and so far as lights in the kitchen...vent hood light at the stove, can light in cabinet above the kitchen sink (switched), under cabinet lights above all counter top spaces (also switched), There will also be a couple of spots mounted on the trusses aimed into the kitchen area from up high (also switched).

[Willy]

I'm going to follow Marks recomendations. I'll put the bathroom plug on a seperate circut with GFI. I'm going to drop a fan from the cathedral ceiling in the center of the main room. I'll want speed direction and light controls at the wall. Need to figure that out still I guess. I'll put the sleeping loft on a seperate circut as well with arc fault breaker Mark recomended. Not sure where I can move the pannel since most of the wall space is taken up already... I don't want it outside. The guest house will have A/C, heat, fridge and microwave. No stove or washer/dryer so I guess 50 amp will be ok for that? Could I split the plugs and lights in a sub pannel at the shop so I only need to pull one wire?

You could run a 30 amp 240v circuit to the shop and split it up in a 4 little 4-cir sub panel. Then you could have a 240v cir for a compressor out of the sub panel too. Run 14/3 wire up to the ceiling fan/lite combination so you can control it better. I thought you had a small wall just outside the closet next to the sliding glass door? You can remote mount the meter off the building if you want on a post so it is not on the porch. Just go down inside the wall and underground to it.

[Redoverfarm]

Mark I was going to run you down on my cabin but it is a little premature now.  I had always heard that the larger breakers go to the top of the panel nearest the feed (or bottom depending on whether your feed is on top or bottom).  Is there any sense to that.  Also was told to put the lights on a different circuit than the recpeticles.  I guess that is if you have to work on something you don't have to be in the dark doing it.  Will check out some of the info you have offered and see what applies.

[ScottA]

I could put it by the sliding door but there is a beam (doubled rim joist) under that wall that I don't want to notch or cut. The meter will be out on the pole with the service comming in underground. The closet will have large sliding doors that will be removable. This would provide pretty good access. Is that code? I know I've seen pannels in closets before.

[Willy]

I could put it by the sliding door but there is a beam (doubled rim joist) under that wall that I don't want to notch or cut. The meter will be out on the pole with the service comming in underground. The closet will have large sliding doors that will be removable. This would provide pretty good access. Is that code? I know I've seen pannels in closets before.

Here is the deal is is not allowed in a cloths closet. Now if you could put a light in the closet, also mount the panel so it was behind the sliding door when you open it and not have a shelf over it or a way to hang cloths you can do it. If it is to be inspected it better not be a cloth closet till after your finel on the building but I did not say that?

[MountainDon]

Scott, under the IRC2003 it states "panel boards and overcurrent protection shall not be located in cloths closets or bathrooms. Required working space (as Mark mentioned) shall not be designated for storage."  6&1/2 ft vertical clearance, floor up required.


I was writing that while Mark was doing his 

[Willy]

Mark I was going to run you down on my cabin but it is a little premature now.  I had always heard that the larger breakers go to the top of the panel nearest the feed (or bottom depending on whether your feed is on top or bottom).  Is there any sense to that.  Also was told to put the lights on a different circuit than the recpeticles.  I guess that is if you have to work on something you don't have to be in the dark doing it.  Will check out some of the info you have offered and see what applies.

Yes it is best to put the larger breakers closer to the main breaker or feed lugs. It depends on what plugs your talking about putting them on the lights also. Kitchen plugs, washer plug, micro wave plug ect no don't mix them with the lights. Mixing the lights in hallways, living rooms, kitchens, ect with plugs in hallways, living rooms, dens, sewing rooms ect is OK. I like to keep the lights in one room off the plugs in that room if saftey is a problem tripping a breaker but it is not a code requirement. Mark

[Willy]

Scott, under the IRC2003 it states "panel boards and overcurrent protection shall not be located in cloths closets or bathrooms. Required working space (as Mark mentioned) shall not be designated for storage."  6&1/2 ft vertical clearance, floor up required.


I was writing that while Mark was doing his 

I love interpitation in the codes there are fine lines you can follow and get away with doing things they don't want you to do. Mark

[ScottA]

I'm going to relocate the pannel to the right of the sliding door behind the stairs. The beam is sitting directly over the center beam of the house at that location so it won't hurt to notch it there. Should allow for full clearance there if I eliminate the shelves under the stairs.

Thanks for all the help guys. 

[n74tg]

I haven't read all the posts on this thread, so hopefully I'm not repeating what someone else already said. 

I have a friend who is an electrician.  He said the 2008 NEC will be adopted probably in October of this year.  I didn't know that the new code only comes out every three years, so we've been working off the 2005 NEC prior to now.  One major change is that AFCI receptacles must now be used in all rooms except kitchens and baths (which require GFCI) and garages which can still use same old type receptacles.  Also, he mentioned that receptacles will have to be child-proof, which means that you can't plug in something like a screwdriver (that goes only into one side of the receptacle).  He also mentioned that these receptacles won't be bad on cost, only about a dollar per receptacle more than standard ones. 

The other change he mentioned is that your ground system will have be be "ohmed".  In the 2005 NEC I don't think there was a maximum reading allowed.  But for 2008, I think the max is 15 ohms.  If you exceed that, you have to drive another ground rod. 

He mentioned that if you built prior to 2008 NEC acceptance, you probably will be grandfathered in having done it the old way.  However, we never know what the local building inspector is gonna require. 

I am NOT an electrician, so check all this out for yourself before you take it as gospel.   

[MountainDon]

One thing to remember with codes is that it's usually up to the local/state jurisdiction whether or not to adopt the new codes as they are released. I'm not sure about the NEC, but I do know it's true of other codes like IRC and the IEEC, at least locally. There are places in the country that still use 1992 codes for some things. Local jurisdictions also can be even more restrictive than a national code.

Anything already under way should not be bothered by changes, IMO.

AFCI is provided by a special breaker I believe. Those darn AFCI breakers are expensive! Did your friend indicate whether or not the GFCI had to be done with a GFCI breaker (also expensive) or is having the first device in the circuit a GFCI redeptacle okay?

[n74tg]

Don:
The electrician and I specifically discussed the GFCI question you raised; he said either way is still code approved. 

[ScottA]

AFCI is a new one on me. Never heard of it. I'll look into it though. I want the wiring to be fully up to code even though I don't need an inspection.

[MountainDon]

AFCI breaker (arc fault circuit interrupter) These can sense a electrical arc at a loose connection or in a faulty extension cord. If a lamp or extension cord gets abused, or the screw terminals at a connection loosen it's possible for an arc to occur. This will not cause a standard or GFCI breaker to "pop", but the arcing can cause a fire. So far (until the 2008 is in force) the AFCI are only required for all lights, receptacles, even smoke detectors in bedrooms.  I suppose they are a good idea anywhere, but $$$... about $36 vs $6 to $7 for a standard, Square D, brand QO series.

AFCI info
http://www.ul.com/regulators/afci/index.cfm
http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PUBS/afci.html

IF you are using Square D brand and IF you have a Lowe's, there is a 20% off till 4/30 at Lowe's
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=3312.0   I bought a few today for future use.

[n74tg]

AFCI; arc fault circuit interrupt.  From what I understand, if you say pile up clothes (or any other flammable material) over the top of a plugged in appliance (let's say it's a table lamp); and somebody bumps the clothing stack, which partly pulls the plug out of the receptacle, and allows the clothes to come into contact with the two partially plugged in pins from the plug.  The arc that can occur can easily reach 10,000 degrees in temperature, more than enough to ignite any flammable material.

Im sure there are other more sophisticated explanations; this is just one I remember from reading my residential wiring book.

Edit:  Sorry Don, I must have missed your response to his question.

[Willy]

AFCI breaker (arc fault circuit interrupter) These can sense a electrical arc at a loose connection or in a faulty extension cord. If a lamp or extension cord gets abused, or the screw terminals at a connection loosen it's possible for an arc to occur. This will not cause a standard or GFCI breaker to "pop", but the arcing can cause a fire. So far (until the 2008 is in force) the AFCI are only required for all lights, receptacles, even smoke detectors in bedrooms.  I suppose they are a good idea anywhere, but $$$... about $36 vs $6 to $7 for a standard, Square D, brand QO series.

AFCI info
http://www.ul.com/regulators/afci/index.cfm
http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PUBS/afci.html

IF you are using Square D brand and IF you have a Lowe's, there is a 20% off till 4/30 at Lowe's


http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=3312.0   I bought a few today for future use.

As far as the NEC (National Electrical Code) it is the minium code and has to be followed every where. Now saying that they can require you to do more but not less than the NEC. Mark

[ScottA]

One more question. We want to put recessed lighting around the exterior in the sofits. Will regular can lights be ok or do I need some special outside version? How far apart should the lights be spaced? They will be lighting a walkway/deck area.



Here's how the sofit looks now. There won't be any insulation in this area either.

[rwanders]

Reference to input by Mark:  My understanding is that even though the NEC is titled the "national code", it is still a "small c" code and has no automatic legal status, it only does so when it is adopted by statute by a particular "authority having jurisdiction". That is sometimes a state, sometimes a municipality or even a county. Various editions of the NEC are recognized in individual jurisdictions. Each jurisdiction can also approve modifications to their approved basic code as either a blanket ruling or on individual application by use of the "request for interpretation" process or through a "request for special permission".  I have dealt with many electrical inspectors and/or IBEW craftsmen on these types of issues in more than one state or other jurisdiction.  The NEC is commonly viewed as a "safety code" though a great many of its' requirements are more related to ease of construction or good practices such as 6" pigtails left at each receptacle or switch box ( to allow for ease of making connections) Another is a ban on more than a typical number of 90 degree turns in conduit runs to avoid potential damage while pulling wires---no doubt a good practice but, if you successfully pull your conductors through without damage then no additional risk remains once they are installed. I once found electrical inspectors pulling receptacle covers off 30 year old boxes to measure the length of the conductors available for any potential installation of replacement receptacles-----The AHJ had to explain to them that they were mis-interpreting the NEC and appearing to be using it to harass the owner. However, the vast majority of electrical inspectors are good and knowledgeable folks and do their best to ensure safe electrical installations.