1.5 Story In Kentucky

glenn kangiser · February 16, 2009, 12:12:54 AM

You could also stand a post 6x6? vertically to extend past the floor level on the outside left, all the way from the ground up past the floor. Then put the chain around that so the whole thing is forced to move to the right as a unit - not trying to knock the beams off of the posts.

You may wish to add better straps connecting the posts to the beams also.

glenn kangiser · February 16, 2009, 01:50:44 AM

A buried Railroad tie in a t slot will make a very effective anchor and be easy to do with a backhoe. I used similar of steel for my drilling rigs. The chain would go out the middle leg of the t.

The house, while big cannot be that extremely heavy yet - just a shell I think.

Something like this would be ideal I think.

February 16, 2009, 02:05:18 AM

I don't think it would be that hard to do with a good anchor at each end and chains and or comealongs - chain hoists etc attached as high on the left as possible - the post behind the pier will assure that all moves together. I would use chains with hooks on the ends and binders as shown above I think as they will really pull and are easy to adjust.

Wish I was closer to you, Pro. I'd drop over to help.

glenn kangiser · February 16, 2009, 02:07:42 AM

Your jeeps and winches could work, Don if they were used very carefully but - it may take more than that. How about tow trucks. That might do it. Very controllable and heavy with anchors, chocks etc.

Don_P · February 16, 2009, 02:18:27 PM

It doesn't appear to have bracing in either direction, if the posts are plumb in one direction brace that off first so you don't lose it.

A slot trench in the ground that allows a small tree trunk to lay at an angle towards the post tops. With enough large flat 2x12's etc making a foot for the tree and a 12 ton jack at the top of the trunk I think you'll have more shove than come alongs can put out. It might take several rounds of compressing and shimming to get a solid footing compacted. Push against big timbers on the building not on the building itself to help spread out loads. I'm with Don, if it looks like it won't go, hold it up and replace the legs one at a time and brace them as you go.

A tutorial thread on lateral bracing of this type foundation would be a good idea

February 16, 2009, 05:52:28 PM

The tutorial could be a good idea, Don. All situations are different and for some that have problem soil it could be more important than for those like me who have to jackhammer the holes out even in the winter.

Until we get going on that it is basically but not limited to bracing in a triangle from a high point near the floor to a low point on a pier, with something that is fairly substantial. There are so many ways to do it along with concrete piers that may not need it that it will not be a one size fits all deal.

Here is one that Pa Kettle did.

I guess we need to think about changes occurring as winter comes and holes may fill with water, but sometimes at least in my case I fail to notice until it is past time and a bit late.

Redoverfarm · February 16, 2009, 06:02:58 PM

Pro sorry I wasn't able to jump in but my Internet was down this morning. I too would recommend three CA or at least two. With the cables taunt use a piece of electrical tape around the cables to gauge just how much you have pulled. This is necessary if both ends need pulled. If not you will not pull evenly at one time. Pull til the tape is gauges against the outside then go to the other and do the same. It keeps the pull consistant on both ends. Back and forth from one to the other. I would be afraid to just pull on one end as it might twist and throw the other end out sort of like a scissor action.

Another advantage of taping the cable is that you know how far you are off kilter. Put a marker on the cable at the point of the distance and you will know when you are close.

If I think of anything else that someone else has not touched on I will be back.

prohomesteader · February 16, 2009, 06:12:58 PM

thanks all, redover thanks too, don_p, all the post have some lean to them, one side is worse than the other though

we went out today, forgot the memory card so no video but heres a few pics from my phone. we didn't do anything yet.

tomorrow we will put temporary 2x bracing on and we also have a local general contractor coming to look at it

it appears We Built Our House In A Mudhole

of course it was hard as rock clay when we built it so we didn't know then

the worst spot on the six acres, the wettest, muddiest spot is on the right side of our house where it's sinking, moving, or whatever it's doing, here's a quick tour of the geography and water

pic1. up above the house, this is where we are digging up the ground with a spade to put a garden. very dry here. the top of the dirt we turned over is already turning a dry color and not damp at all

pic2. from in front of the house, you should be able to see where the stream was, it is STILL muddy here a week and a half after the thaw and runnoff, this covers a large section under and next to the house

pic3. still standing water around the front pier, that's how wet and muddy the place still is. crazy really, the water will just not go anywhere. it was moving water last week, now it's mostly mud with puddles in our footprints. this is the front right house pier, not the deck pier.

pic 4. a little bit further away from the last post pictured, you can see this is a super large area that is completely saturated

pic 5. not sure if you've seen this angle before but you can get a better perspective of the hill to the back left of the house, I'm guessing a good amount of water is also coming from there

I still have it in the back of my head to move the thing to higher ground, especially since it's literally sitting in the wettest spot on our 6 acres, and we plan on being there awhile

but for now we'll brace it tomorrow. maybe start trenching, although we aren't quite sure yet how big of trenching project to undertake, that's a bunch of wet ground

thanks all for the support, the suggestions have been awesome.

peteh2833 · February 16, 2009, 07:36:17 PM

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I think there is alot of rain with snow to the north coming by Wednesday. I hope you don't get it but it is the storm that is slamming California right now. Pete

February 16, 2009, 08:55:26 PM

I wouldn't move it. A french drain uphill should take care of the water.

I noticed you dont have any concrete in those holes...Add several thousands pounds of concrete and some diagonal bracing, that house isn't going anywhere.

Basically, right now the only thing keeping that house up, is some gravel in a 2.5'x3' hole. Get them straight and fill it up with concrete...

Don_P · February 16, 2009, 09:32:49 PM

A leaning concrete column in mud is going to tip over slower. The posts need to be braced to the building, I've sketched in where they can go.

what I was asking about is plumb in the direction of the yellow bracing. We know the posts are leaning in the direction of the red bracing. are they plumb in the direction of the yellow bracing? I see you have one braced bay in that direction. If it is plumb that way I would add as much of the yellow bracing as you can before disturbing it. This all needs to be bolted for high load, nails won't hold bracing. Then attempt your push or pull and brace the red direction when it's plumb.

I don't think you have settlement if you are on an adequate footing, the jobsite mud is more a symptom of your traffic and the weather right now, i agree that a diversion and it'll be a fine site.

prohomesteader · February 16, 2009, 10:47:02 PM

thanks don p, i need to double check level in that direction but your diagram is great, will be doing some red bracing tomorrow and bought a trenching shovel so going from there. won't do a french drain right away but want to get the trench started.

thinking more on the anchor, I wonder if I could use 3 post bottoms (or more) on one side to pull only 1 post at a time back to level on the other side like this?

of course this puts me under the house while I'm tightening things, scary to think about but might work

MountainDon · February 16, 2009, 10:58:39 PM

If you want to try that I'd position the mechanical device right close to the single pole with three longer cables/chains connecting from there to the other three posts. That will reduce the sideways forces on the two end posts.

Don_P · February 16, 2009, 11:50:44 PM

Its not a post at a time problem. all the posts are equally out of plumb and all need to come back up to plumb together at once. They are simply leaned. I wouldn't be under it.

February 17, 2009, 12:29:46 AM

The floor makes it a solid unit so you won't pull the tops individually. The bottoms are possible to move individually but we don't want that.

Don_P is right as it sits, - it all has to go together but there is another option - not real easy.

If you do the red bracing, keep in mind that you can't straighten it if it is solid bracing - or you will have to take it off to straighten it. Nothing wrong with that - just that you will not move the posts wile braced with x2x material without something breaking on getting loosened somewhere. You can stabilize it where it is at this time with the red bracing though.

As the others mentioned, grading such as an uphill walking path, French drain, etc to get the water and take it around your site will dry it out. No need to move the house in my opinion.

Straightening and bracing should do it.

Another option ... if moving it all at once won't work - if it won't pull plumb...

How about stabilizing it where it is at, so it can't go more, with diagonal bracing on each leg, then jacking the legs up one at a time and straightening each of them wherever they land in the hole then drill the legs through in the hole, insert some rebar and pour about a 12 inch concrete base a couple feet or so in diameter, around each one with it straight in its new location, with the added diagonal bracing. You may want to laser each leg location to make sure it has remained level. You would haee to dig the gravel out of the holes one at a time to do this - then straighten the legs one at a time and concrete them.

Just more ideas combining others from above.

prohomesteader · February 17, 2009, 08:37:26 AM

thanks all

@glenn you last suggestion is interesting, stabilizing then moving each resetting each pole individually however that wouldn't straighten the beam up

the beam is leaning too

but an interesting suggestions assuming the gravel iis coming out at one point or another.

I'm starting to think the 60mph winds the other day might have helped move the house over?

headed out in a few, will at least get braces on the worst posts and work the trenching shovel for awhile.

r8ingbull · February 17, 2009, 08:43:15 AM

By using the posts as an anchor, I would say you will move the anchors as much as you move the house, except in the wrong direction.

Most likely this house is not only leaning, but has twisted slightly too.

If you could plot each post on a grid and label amount out of plumb in both directions it would give you a better idea of the movement you're getting.

If you are taking out the gravel, a couple of 20t bottle jacks will take the pressure off so the posts can be reset and concrete added. Those jacks will straighten that beam up nicely.

Mike 870 · February 17, 2009, 09:09:26 AM

How bout the ole tractor push?

diyfrank · February 17, 2009, 09:11:38 AM

Just a couple suggestions here, I've done a little of this kind of repair. I really don't think you will pull everything back to plumb without FIRST removing the gravel. When the posts moved it created a void on the back (trailing) side of the posts. The gravel settled back into the void.
Forcing it back will require a lot more force if you leave the gravel in and some posts may return to plumb while others may not get there. Temporary bracing to keep a safe work zone, than removing the gravel may get you there with less force needed. I would definitely not use the bottom of any other post to anchor. You don't want the bottom of the anchor post to walk in the hole when force is applied. Filling the holes with concrete once plumb and braced is your best bet for preventing further problems.

You may want to see if your water problems are surface related or ground. Probe the ground around your building with a rod / rebar and see if the ground is saturated. If it feels solid and you can't push the rod in more than let say 6 " you may be in good shape. If it feels soft and you can bury the rod a french drain would do you well. I would place it up hill and stay 5' - 10' from your building. You need to have your trench lower than your posts. If the posts are 2' deep dig your trench 3'. and drain down and away to daylight.

Good luck and be safe.

prohomesteader · February 17, 2009, 10:09:01 PM

ragingbull- thanks,that would be cool if the bottlejacks straightened the beam up

mike-tractor push might work

diyfrank-interesting point about the additional gravel UNDER the posts now, even if we were to jack the house, remove all the gravel and level the pole, I'm not sure we could get them all leve up and down now, sheesh

today we got some work done. added 2 braces and dug about 50-60 feet of a trench.

it hasn't rained in a week but the trench turned into a stream. the final version will be much bigger and deeper than this but it's already doing the dob at a foot deep

here's the trench

here's the braces

I made a video about the trench showing the water but youtube is down right now so I'll post it tomorrow

February 18, 2009, 12:54:06 AM

Hey Pro,

It doesn't look like you are having much fun right now. I hope you get it worked out soon. You said the trench filled up with water. Did it fill from the start or start seeping in from everywhere? Is there any chance that the water line that runs by your house has broken? Water rushing under the posts would certainly cause these types of problems. I remember the water line being fairly far away, but I think it was uphill from the house. I think I would put up a couple more braces and then a temp support by the worst post and excavate that hole to find out what caused it. I think though, you may actually be right about the wind.. You do seem to get plenty of it where you are and a steady 60mph wind or even good gusts could certainly move your house a little without the cross braces.

Keep us up to date...

rwanders · February 18, 2009, 03:08:10 AM

No advice better then what has been given----but this situation really drives home the need for good foundation design and soils investigation. Don't mean to sound superior in any way---this could happen to any one of us.

prohomesteader · February 18, 2009, 09:48:29 AM

@phalynx, the water is seeping into the ground from almost everywhere so it's just for sure the hill behind the house got too saturated from the snow and melting ice and it just ran and slowed by our house

that's a good idea about more bracing, we will do so in the next few days

here's a video we did with the trench showing what we did and the amount of water seeping out of the ground into the trench

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBdCs0Z7wc8

also, I'm still not sure how if we dig the holes out and reset the posts that we can get them all level UP and DOWN relative to each other even though front/back left/right would be easy enough.

considerations · February 18, 2009, 10:23:13 AM

I watched your video, egads thats a lot of water. Keep your chin up, you'll get things fixed.

r8ingbull · February 18, 2009, 10:57:43 AM

Quote from: prohomesteader on February 18, 2009, 09:48:29 AM
@phalynx, the water is seeping into the ground from almost everywhere so it's just for sure the hill behind the house got too saturated from the snow and melting ice and it just ran and slowed by our house

that's a good idea about more bracing, we will do so in the next few days

here's a video we did with the trench showing what we did and the amount of water seeping out of the ground into the trench

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBdCs0Z7wc8

also, I'm still not sure how if we dig the holes out and reset the posts that we can get them all level UP and DOWN relative to each other even though front/back left/right would be easy enough.

Do you have any concrete in those post holes?

As far as getting them level, you can raise the beam slightly (1") using bottle jacks and cribbing. Dig out the gravel (use it in your french drain). Either set the post in concrete or pour a concrete pier. Leave the post a bit high. When all the post under a beam are set, trim them down to level height. Lower the beam back onto the posts. You might end up lowering the beam a 1/2" but it won't matter.

I think the water is the least of the problems...#1 is the bracing and #2 is the lack of concrete in the holes. Right now, I figure you have this entire structure weight loaded onto about 3 square feet of dirt.

Also I would get a 2x brace on each post in both directions.