1.5 Story In Kentucky

[prohomesteader]

I had a visit on the land yesterday from PHALYNX and didn't take a picture, woops.  All the way from texas and I didn't even get a picture.

Well, he wasn't just here to see me   he was looking around for land.

it was a pleasure to meet you and good luck with your land hunting and decision making.

[MountainDon]

I want the barn closer to the house, my wife want's it farther away, she says it will stink, we'll see

Depends. 

Depends on the individual mind set as much as the individual nose. To some the odor from the horse or cows is a pleasant reminder of the joys of what they're doing or where they're living. Barns smell different, some more so than others. IMO that's partly due to animal types and how hard the owner works at maintaining the cleanliness. I remember the smell of the hay in the loft more than the smells from down below. Maybe that's selective memory at work. 

[phalynx]

Oh sure, right,, you met me but "forgot" to get a picture... sure sure...  It was really great meeting with you.  You have a done a great job building your place.  I think you have earned the "metal roof installation certification" for a personal home. 

As for the barn, think about it this way, you will get used to a smell to the point where you won't even notice anymore after a few weeks..... the same cannot be said for the multilpe daily walks to the barn........ if it's far away.

[phalynx]

Prohome?  You guys ok there in KY?  Lots of problems there with the storm.  Are you guys doing alright?

[prohomesteader]

doing fine, thanks for asking

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/weather/02/01/winter.weather/index.html

never lost power or anything, we were really lucky.  Iced in for most of the week and itching to get back out to the house, last time was the time I saw you there.

wife and I planted our first seeds for the spring tomatoes and peppers and such indoors this evening, doing great

hadn't been around the forum lately so I'll go check your thread and see how things are coming.  any moving news?

[prohomesteader]

EDIT: the images have disappeared. A member found 2 archived images and sent them to me. I attached them to the end of this message. Sorry, they are not very big.


Need advice:  Our house is slowly falling down.  The first picture is holding a level in the level position.  That is the worst pole, the back left, but you can see how far off the post is from being level.  All the other posts are leaning that way also now but a little bit less.  The house itself has remained amazingly level still.





Our best guess why.  When the ice and snow melted it caused the left side of the house (as pictured above) to almost become a stream of water runnoff.  This made that side of the house extremely soft to walk on, you'd sink a couple of inches each step.  The water made it down the 3 foot or more the posts are buried and the posts sunk a bit on that side of the house.  Just guessing, but only one side of the houses ground took on that much water.

So we are in a predicament and looking for any advice you might offer.

If we wanted to hire someone to come give professional advice on the situation who would that be?

Is there anything we can do from keeping the house from falling over more to that side?

How would we determine how far down we needed the posts so that we'd be below whatever water level is causing the poles to sink or move?

What Would You Do In Our Shoes?

Thanks much in advance.

[glenn kangiser]

Hired advice will likely do no more than cost you money over what you can get here for free, pro-home.  An engineer will give you the same solution you will have to go to anyway.

It looks as though it is leaning to the left so I am assuming all of it is leaning to the left from your description.  If it is not sinking but only leaning then the first thing to do is to get some diagonal bracing on it. 

I would first get some strap braces or come alongs to keep it from going more.  Strap or come along from the top of your beam in the first picture to the bottom of the center pier and from the top of the center beam to the bottom of the right pier.  If that is not sufficient to pull it without moving the bottoms of the piers in the ground towatrd the beam, then go out to the roght and dig a big hole - bury a decent sized anchor in the solid ground - lead a cable or tie toward the beams of the house and come-along it there also.

Flat strap braces would hold it from going more - they work in tension - then as you pull it back they will bow in and you can reset them.

After you pull it back into place with the comealongs - chain hoists etc then get some diagonal bracing on it to keep it there - Check level of the house after that - - re level - get down to solid earth if necessary and increase thae amount of piers to support it as necessary.

[glenn kangiser]

If necessary cut a hole in the floor to get around the beam -

Use as many come alongs - chain hoists etc as necessary to get it back.  A steel co I subbed for had to do this to a 4 story casino an engineer had failed to provide north- south diagonal bracing in.  It also was seriously falling over.

Check the ground to see just how deep it is solid to  - you may have to add piers to that level with substantial concrete footings.

Sometimes ground doesn't always remain as what it appeared to be in the summer.  I would also suggest modifying drainage if necessary when possible and getting water away from the foundation by whatever means necessary - usually a 2% slope away from the house for a ways - 5 to 10 feet at least if I recall correctly.  No matter onm the details - just get it draining away.

[prohomesteader]

thanks glenn, I mean no slight on the advice given in the forum, it's probably better than pro's.  Just that you are there and pro help would be on site and my house was falling 

about your advice

what type of anchor would we attach the comealongs to?  it must be huge I assume

and we could really pull the posts back to level with a comealong and a house sitting on them?

where would would you put the strap braces?

we've been down three feet and that wasn't enough, any idea on how to get down past any water, our post hole digger probably won't cut it and I'm guessing it's wet way past 3 feet

funny thing like you mention, in summertime the ground was hard as a rock, it's clay, but had no idea it gets that soft and wet there

[glenn kangiser]

No problem about the slight - didn't take it that way.  For pro help that would do something if you are not up to it or things don't work out - I would talk to house movers.  Likely expensive.

You need a triangle to something solid to bring it back and stop it from going more.  A chain around the bottom of the center and right posts with one wrap around the post plus a loop will lock it to the post - in other words two wraps around the post with one loose to hook to.   This will likely arrest movement at the least.

If you note sideways movement of the base of the post when pulling the top of the beam you will need to bury the anchor to the right of the house - maybe 3 if the whole house is leaning  -- one where shown in the pix - one center and one far end.  An anchor could be a truck wheel or a railroad tie - anything big and cheap that will present a large surface against the ground to pull the house back.  A backhoe could do the digging fast if available. 

The screw type chain binders are very effective also - chain to the post bottom - chain to the beam and binder in the middle to pull the chain together.



http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=36023

[glenn kangiser]

For something  fast to stop more movement a couple 2x6's lagged with 6x 1/2 or so  inch lags from top left to bottom center and top center to bottom right could also help.  Predrill to prevent splitting if you use the lags. They would have to be removed before pulling back as they wont give llke the steel straps will (thinking Simpson diagonal brace straps).

[glenn kangiser]

Water past 3 feet or dampness - is it in a swale - underground water movement?   Possibly you will need a drainage system in the ground - rock filled french drain trenches - to drain the water off before it gets there if so - drain down hill to daylight.

Lime can be used  to firm up clay soil - but it needs to be mixed with it and it is hard with the house there.

As high as it is though a backhoe may reach under there to get down to firm ground below at least around the outsides between the existing footings.  Check farther out first if doing that.

First get it stabilized then we can talk about retro-fixes.

[glenn kangiser]

Movement can likely be arrested at this point with solid 2x6 bracing at all top s to bottoms but that will make it hard to pull back as I mentioned above.  The same can be accomplished with the Simpson diagonal straps but they only hold by tension - in other words they will not get longer so will arrest the movement to the left.  They could be used at all posts underneath also.

[glenn kangiser]

Looking at the old pix - page 2 and this one,



It looks like you are in a low spot with water from above washing over your site.  Combined with the clay and the gravel tamped holes, it leaves what is called a bathtub effect  - the footings fill up with water like a bath tub and that is why it is so wet.  Take a look at the big picture - an over view of your site and I think you will see the problem - I'm just going from your pictures. 

You need to get uphill runoff directed away from your footings as well as house runoff.  I don't think the ground is naturally that wet underneath - it's just runoff collecting in the gravel filled holes.  You need to ditch and regrade above the house to get the water to go around  rather than through under the foundation.

[r8ingbull]

The floor and beam connection looks good at least.  Should be pretty easy to pull it back and ad the bracing.  Plan to bring it back slow, so the post can come back to plumb.  I would run chains around the rim joist on the far side and use anchors like glen said.

Is the floor still level? if so, the post probably aren't sinking.

A couple of 20 ton bottle jacks w/ cribbing could take the weight off the beam if you need to reset a few posts...

You might help keep the water out of those footings by taking a foot or so of gravel out and fill it in with the clay soil, mounded on top.

[prohomesteader]

thanks glenn and r8ingbull

I think we are out of panick mode now

tomorrow we will get some comealongs and chains and head out, we tried tonight but everywhere around here closes early on sunday

the gameplan so far is to attach 3 chains around the beam evenly spaced, connect all to a single comealong, then run 3 chains from it to the bottom of the center posts.  likewise on the other side.

here's a picture to show you  what I'm thinking



the only thing I see for sale at lowes is a 1ton or 2ton comealong, hopefully if it's not enough to pull it back  into place it will hold it from moving more.

based on the results we'll decide the next steps.

I'll try and remember to bring the video camera so you can see in moving colors

thanks much again, we'll sleep a bit better this evening, until tomorrow

@mountaindon, the left side of the house (looking from back) is sinking more than the right and pulling right ones over it appears, i reckon that's why the one side has a bigger lean than the other.  we didn't check the levelness of the floor but the walls on thehouse were still pretty level

[r8ingbull]

The house itself has remained amazingly level still

Is this still true?  Is the floor level?

I would bring those post back close to plumb by pulling on the beam.  Once that's done work on each individual post location to make each one perfectly plumb.  After that, get the bracing on to keep it that way.  

I'm a little leery of the idea of pulling on the middle posts.  It might work, but that is going to be a lot of strain, you'll be under the house while cranking on that come-along.  Plus a 2-ton CA doesn't pull as hard as it seems.  If that was all I had, would probably give it a shot too, but would be a lot more comfortable with a few more CA's or chain-falls, etc.

Remember, if that diagram will pull the posts back to plumb you still have to get is braced.  Imagine a failure somewhere and how much movement that is.  It would be like slamming your whole house two inches left...

I lifted my house 1 inch, to replace the sill plate (non-treated, termites), had quotes of ~$6,000.  Managed to get it done in a weekend

[glenn kangiser]

I agree - at least 3 come-alongs or chains and binders etc.  With the one it will be working against itself.  Each one reduces the load and adds to the total weight that can be moved.

I worry about overdoing it with an electric winch - good communication would be a must and remember that it can go over the opposite way also - careful not to overdo it.

[r8ingbull]

I've been thinking a bit more about this.  There is no way I would go under that house and pull hard on 1 come-along. 

At a bare minimum I would want one on each end, so I could crank and not be under it...

Also for bracing, some nice steel cable with turnbuckles and you could bring it back slowly.  Use the CA's to pull and the cables as bracing.  Move it 1/2" per day and give those posts time to reset/conform.

[prohomesteader]

wow, scary stuff, houses falling on my head or cables taking it off

I'll try and keep from under the house tomorrow then while it's moving

maybe a dumb question but I'm curious, would you disassemble the house and move it to higher or drier ground? 

I'm worried now if we do get it fixed it might keep happening, but possibly without warning and much quicker next time.

[glenn kangiser]

Not at all, Pro.  I think that after the regrading is taken care of and the water is kept out of the footings  as well as the bracing, you will not have a problem.

If you look at the pix, the length of the house quite a bit braces itself.  The sideways problem you have is because there is little or no bracing sideways and when the ground softened it wanted to head over.  Diagonal bracing will keep the piers straight and prevent the hinging sideways - then the oly thing will be down pressure.  Again I think the holes are filling with surface runoff and not softening because of the soil itself.

At the worst you may need to add some piers but it sounds as if it is not sinking per your report.

[glenn kangiser]

My dads house has been sinking into the ground in Oregon for around 70 years.   They have continued to jack it up over that time until recently when my brother made a cradle -longer foundation --to give it more support.  Getting the diagonal bracing on will support the house from going over sideways.  the explained methods should work to straighten things up.  If there was no need to straighten it up, it could be stabilized exactly where it is right now and still not go down -- the piers would just be crooked.  First thing is to straighten it while you can.

[Don_P]

There is no triangularized bracing on the foundation posts, as far as I can see it is unbraced in either direction. A triangle cannot be changed, it is rigid. A 4 sided shape can become a parallellogram, and then a line. In a wall the plywood sheathing or a let in brace does the triangularization. This needs X or Y bracing bolted in when it is replumbed. A vertical post has loads in one direction, down. As it tips it now has force in the horizontal and vertical directions. As it tips more the horizontal forces increase which causes more horizontal movement and thus more force, which makes it tip more, which increases force, which makes it tip even more.... It hits a point where this cycle gets very fast, this time of year with freeze/thaw the soil is pretty fluid. The further out of vertical the harder it is to bring it back and the closer you are to the fast part of that collapse scenario.

If in any doubt crib it up while you are working so that it cannot fall. Looking at the pictures that will take a load of cribbing.

I used 6 truckers ratchet straps, 3 come alongs and a 4 wheel drive truck tipping an apple tree back upright this past fall. Wrapping shirts and coats around the cable also helps slow them down if one breaks.

You may need to support the building, dig out each pier and reset it plumb, then brace and backfill.

An engineer may well be worth a call.

[prohomesteader]

@glenn - I'm also worried that the high tension on the beam might pull it off of the posts, I'll sleep on it but I'm not sure I'm up to moving the entire house, I'll see how I feel in the morning

calling an engineer like donp suggests or house movers or hired help might cost thousands of dollars.  rebuilding with the materials from the existing house costs little more than time (and a new foundation) thats why I mentioned it

@donp- what type of engineer would I call?

[glenn kangiser]

Safest bet would be to reach from the right using a ground anchor going clear under it to the left beam to prevent pulling anything apart.  That would be pulling things back toward themselves.

civil/structural on the engineer type should do it.