1.5 Story In Kentucky

[John Raabe]

Jochen's diagram is a good one. The very best installation is to get the top of the chimney above the air turbulence of the roof slopes. Wind, especially when the chimney is low on the leeward side of the roof, can play tricks on the natural desire of warm smoke to rise.

I sometimes get backdrafting on my own chimney - which is masonry and meets the code level aspects of Jochen's diagram (2' abv a point 10' from the roof). The cap is lower than the peak but 15' away from it. Backdrafting only occurs on stormy days while the chimney is just warming up with a new fire.

PS - PeteH may find that adding a pipe section or two improves the draft. A short installation like this is not a much greater fire danger (keep the spark screen clean!) but it is likely to smoke occasionally.

[prohomesteader]

thanks Jochen and John

so basically the height of the chimney is for drafting and not for caution in setting the roof on fire it appears, that is good to know

I think I will start with pete's example then and work from there, adding height if needed.

one last thing did those prices sound about right to you?

thanks again.

[Jochen]

I really can't say much about the prices, being from Nova Scotia/Canada. When I look at some prices mentioned here I could cry.  We are paying an arm and a leg here for building material. But I would be careful with a really cheap stove. Don't get me wrong, it could be all you will need. Sorry that I can't be of more help in that matter.

I just googled the stove you are talking about. The Vogelzang Boxwood?! Have you looked at the installation instructions already?

Clearances from combustible wall:
Side wall ..... 36"
Rear wall ..... 36"
Corner ........ 36"

Will that work for you?

Jochen

[Squirl]

Sounds right to me.  If you price out any other heating system, you will spend around the same amount.  Wood stoves save money in the long run on the fuel, not the installation.  If you are looking at tractor supply, look at the ventless propane heaters.  Then factor in the cost of installation (pipe and tank) and the cost of delivered propane over the lifespan.  Wood is still one of the cheapest fuels / btu on the market. 
It is about upfront costs versus lifetime costs.  One of the cheapest to set up is electric. The heaters cost next to nothing and you just have to add heavier wire and extra breakers.  Electric tends to cost a fortune in the long run on a primary residence. 

If you can find the pipes used, you can usually find it for a huge discount.  I found an entire installation setup for a 6" flue on eBay for $65. 

[prohomesteader]

yep the The Vogelzang Boxwood

i thought 36 inches was standard so i'd have to make do.

I will ask at the store about other options.

there seems to be a huge jump in price from the cheapies to the rest of the stoves, it's like $200 or $700 with little in the middle

thanks again jochen, you building ahome right now?  drop a link if you dno't mind

@squirl, thanks, I'll check ebay/craigslist

[Jochen]

36 inches is not the standard! There are a lot, many, stoves on the market which could be installed with less space requirements. These have then already built in heat shields on the back and bottom. But that costs money. But I think money well spend.

About building. I started 2004 building a 20' x 24' cabin which grew then over the couple of years. You can see some pictures at http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=88.0 The first pages were lost here on the forum but I have added recently the missing pictures again.  I have recently bought the plans for John's Solar Saltbox which we will start building next spring for my former wife on one part of our property.

Jochen

[soomb]

Well that is mighty nice to build a former wife a house.

[MountainDon]

Some rambling thoughts...

I have not had any downdrafts with my wood stove / chimney setup but sometimes the south wind comes over the peak and down the roof slope and brings the smoke right down to ground level. It's mainly a bother only if I happen to be outside and want to be doing something in the area the smoke blows down to. One day I plan an experiment; I'll take the top section off the gazebo chimney and add it to the cabin chimney and see if it makes a difference.

36 inches for clearance is typical of cheap stoves. My Vermont Castings needs 24" side and 13" rear. It is lined with firebrick. It also has a metal heat shield for the floor protection. Yes, it did cost a considerable amount more than $150, but I feel it is well worth it. There may be other stoves with even smaller clearance requirements.

Low cost stoves are just that, low cost, low efficiency, large volume wood burners. Depending on how much it is called on to heat the cabin you might find yourself refilling the firebox sometime during the night. I haven't looked at that model but I have had a good look at one of their smaller stoves. My opinion of it was that it was nowhere near airtight, meaning it may be difficult to regulate the temperature in the downward, lower direction. And you are right there is no middle ground; wood stoves are either cheap or they are well designed and manufactured.

I would not use a ventfree or ventless propane burning heater no matter how cold I was. I have a direct vent propane heater that will be installed next year. It direct the exhaust to the exterior and draws combustion air from the outside. Ventless can kill. I know that they have oxygen sensors that are supposed to turn off the heater if the O₂ level falls too low. That however doesn't mean that you could not have a CO build up occur.  know people who have suffered CO poisoning and are lucky enough that they lived through it.

When you purchase the stove pipe to connect the stove to the insulated chimney look for a heavy gauge steel telescoping unit. They greatly simplify installation. They are also a welded seam pipe and remain round unlike the cheaper snap lock seam pipe.

Buy the insulated pipe in longer sections as a 36" costs less per foot than a 24" as a rule.

Do not run the chimney...

... up the cathedral ceiling to the ridge and then out the roof there?

...  Ideally you do not want any bends. A straight vertical chimney draws better than one with directional changes. The exception to that would be a slight jog using two 45 degree elbows with a short straight section between them. Back home I had to jog the chimney in the attic to clear the rafters. It only had a 12" section between the bends. Worked well. That one was a tall chimney so that probably helped the draft.

The prices on the parts you listed seen to be inline with what I see here in NM. Here I found that Lowe's had excellent pricing compared to many other places. The Selkirk brand they sell is a good insulated chimney.

One last thing, some of the better wood stoves had a very nice thermostatically controlled air intake. Just a very simple bimetal coil that expands or contracts with temperature change. The VC stoves have this and they work very well. Another feature I like is the availability of a ready made sheet metal adapter box that fits around the stoves air inlet. That allows the inlet air to be drawn from the exterior and adds to the efficiency by not using already warmed interior air for combustion. I have one that I'll install when I do the floor tile. It'll pass through the floor and draw air from under the cabin via a screened mouse and insect proof screened intake vent.

[glenn kangiser]

If you go to the center of the room you only need insulated pipe for a short distance assuming no loft in the stove area.  

It will also prevent snow from sliding and taking it off of the roof.  If through the loft you need insulated or triple wall all of the way to two feet above the peak or highest point within 10 feet of the pipe...

I just got 11 feet and a cap - 9" ID for $100 used.  

What I noticed with the short pipes is pressurization on the roof forcing down through the stove pipe and blowing smoke into the room as the room will be lower pressure than a gust of wind.

[Jochen]

Well that is mighty nice to build a former wife a house.

Not to highjack this topic, but I think it's mighty nice of my former wife to allow me to call her my best friend. When we married some twenty years ago, Moni quit from University because we wanted children. And we made a deal. Her main part should be to look after the children and raise them and I'll work and provide food and shelter. And that deal is still valid. We are now separated for more then eight years. She is looking after the children and I will fulfill my part. It makes me sick to see how many people treat their ex partner.

Jochen

[soomb]

it was not a slight (just in case it sounded as such).  I am impressed to see someone live up to their "word"  That characteristic is sadly missing.  Kudos to you.

[Jochen]

Soomb, no problem at all!!!

But back to topic. It just crossed my mind that I have one of these Vogelzang Boxwood stoves sitting in one corner of my shed. I never used it, a friend gave it to me. But looking at it, I would never ever leave it unattended. Normally a cast iron stove is on the higher side of the price scale due to the more complicated manufacturing process and tools and forms involved. There is a reason why this stove is so cheap. It is by now way airtight and you will have major problems to regulate it. If you will be able to do that all. At least add another damper in your chimney. These stoves overheat easily and will warp, then pulling even more air and burn hotter and hotter....

Jochen

[MountainDon]

That was my impression of the Vogelzang I saw.


nd BTW, congrats to you on being a man of his word. As owners of a preschool over the past 23 years we have seen a few families dragged through the most vile separations and divorces.   

[Redoverfarm]

prohomesteader make sure you follow as close as possible to the guidlines regarding the heigth vs. ridge.  Ask me how I know.  Sometimes you can get by on the lower portion of a roof and sometimes you can't.  I learned the hard way.  My original flue was about 6' above the roof but still not even close to the ridge.  Then when I added onto my house the problem compounded creating a greater problem with the flue in an inside corner of two 10/12 roofs.  Given the additional heigth needed there was no way I would be able to raise it to the required.  The addition was 1-1/2' higher than the original roof.

With hindsight being 20/20 I might have moved the flue to the opposite wall nearer the ridge which would have eliminated the problem but I didn't want to loose valuable space in the room.   So I went as far as possible clearing the main house ridge but still under the addition roof. With all being said my flue is now approximately 13' above the roof.  I was afraid to extend it any further as it is a stand alone at that heigth.  Although your flue will be somewhat easier to remedy than mine this is what I had.



And this is what I had to end up doing.





Although it drafts 100% better than before it is far from perfect.  And no I haven't got around to facing the rest with stone.  Just an eyesore until I get the cabin finished.   

[peteh2833]

I can leave the door open on my stove without it smoking at all. The only problem I had is when I turned it down overnight I had some water mixed with creosote running down the pipe. Never has happened before on any of my woodstoves. Not sure if it was because the camp was so cold inside because of no insulation and the slow burn. I plan on adding 1 more 24" or 36" section of pipe at a later date. Probably when I put the metal roof on in the spring. Pete

[Squirl]

Also as a side note about the stove.  I looked over that one too.  I considered it.  Tell you the truth the fact that it had no window broke the deal for me.  I was willing to pay the extra few hundred for the aesthetic appeal. That is not usually priority #1 for me, especially when you are paying almost 300% more for the option, but I really wanted a fireplace, but they are very inefficient in heating a house.

[SkagitDrifter]

How about looking on Craig's List for a used woodstove?
I found a nice Vermont Castings for a fraction of the cost of a new one- included most of the pipe I need and the stone hearth.
Be sure to inspect it and ask the seller for any manuals/ install instructions- to be sure you get the clearences correct- although most stoves that I looked at have the information on the back heat shield.
Just a thought.
Good luck.
Tom

[MountainDon]

Most manuals for VC stoves are available for download on their website, although by federal law they are all supposed to have a plate on the stove for reference. They also have parts available for their stoves.

[phalynx]

hey Prohome, where are the pics?  I love watching the progress.  Make sure to take a snow pic if you get some.

Scott

[Redoverfarm]

prohomesteader another thing you might consider with the stove placement is how high you are going to have to go to clean the flue on occassions.  If you have a long standing flue pipe such as double or tripple wall will it support a ladder to get to the top.  The reason I thought of this is today since the weather was half decent I decided to clean mine instead of the dead of winter.  No small task even for a mason flue I could only imagine a tall metal one.

[prohomesteader]

wow, thanks all for the advice, stoves are a "hot" topic

I'm thinking of going with the basic chimney clearance like peteh and adding more if needed, but going for a more expensive stove. 

@phalynx, I haven't been out there much lately so nothing to photo.  The wife has less than 2 weeks left of work so I'm trying to get my things in order (going from 2 incomes to 1).

I bought a 60 watt solar kit from amazon I'll be installing shortly so then I'll have something to photo again.  gonna use it to power some lights and my laptop so I don't always need to run the loud gas guzzling generator. also want to add more watts eventually.

http://www.amazon.com/Sunforce-50044-60-Watt-Solar-Charging/dp/B000CIADLG/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1228956126&sr=8-2

[peteh2833]

I got the stove for my camp off of e-bay for $150. I sanded the little bit of rust that was on it and repainted it and it looks like new. Pete

[b33b]

Welcome to the wood stove quandary.  I built a Maine 16 x 24, 1 1/2 story cabin based on John's plans and have been wrestling with stove location. With 8' lofts on each end I wanted it in the middle of the open space and close (18") to a wall, my wife finally agreed.  Corners are nice but I put windows there, plus I wanted a more central heat location.

The stove manufacturer should have published clearances to combustible surfaces, most stoves have a heat shield option to reduce the distance.  Here is a link to an ag extension explanation, note that a sheet metal or cement board on the wall does not further reduce the distance.  You need an air space behind the wall panel or the heat may still be transferred to the wood.
http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d001001-d001100/d001052/d001052.html

Do a search on stove pipe for some ideas and pricing, here is one I found,
http://www.discountstove.com/chimney.html

I went with an older used stove, price was right but the downside is harder to find parts and it needs 8" pipe.  Still not sure if I want to go up to the 12x12 ceiling and 45 degree bend to an opening closer to the peak or just go straight up and out to the 5-6' limit of non braced chimney pipe.  Well below the peak but it is three season cabin with tall trees 8' away from the side wall.  Flip a coin between the which path provide the poorer draft, the longer path will cost more but get me higher than the peak.  I am going with double wall pipe in either case for the reduced spacing.

Did some local pipe pricing last fall and they were estimating 1500-2000, so online is the way to go.  With the pipe that expensive, unless you can find used, it doesn't make sense to by a low cost stove.  At the time they were estimating 3-4 months wait for their installation crew, another reason to do it yourself.

Cal

[glenn kangiser]

Mike Oehler liked the angle pipe in the room for more heat but keep in mind cleaning that sucker out.  I like to add cleanout tees rather than elbows sometimes.

...and to the forum, Cal.  Do we get to see pix of your project?

[MountainDon]

When looking at older used stoves keep in mind that many of them are not EPA compliant. This might be a factor in some areas that require new installations to use listed stoves. Some of our members have run into that requirement.

Newer stoves use 6" pipe because their increased efficiency has reduced the air flow through the unit.