Banks are crooks.

[ScottA]

Last week I made a major purchace at home depot and they overcharged me. I didn't notice the error until the girl handed me the recipt so it had already been charged to my card. She refunded my card and re-charged the correct amount. Today I noticed that the bank had re arranged the transactions so my account got overdrawn (by less than $10) and hit me with an overdraft fee ($25) which they refuse to refund. Beware

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

Scott... let me guess... Bancfirst?  We had that problem with our bank in OK a few times.  They were really bad about holding deposits but taking out withdrawals immediately, and messing things up royally.  Had to watch them like hawks and be really careful to check everything.

[MountainDon]

Sorry to hear that Scott. I guess you're talking about a debit card and checking account??

The USUAL method used by MOST, if not all, banks when running debits through a bank account (check, debit card or ATM transaction... ATM transactions can have a different wrinkle or two of their own) is to put the transactions in order from the largest to the smallest dollar amount received that day, not the order that you made the purchases, not the order they might have been received by the bank.

NOTE: Deposits are credited to the account first, with some exceptions. Go read THIS[/color] and you will know all about deposits and the rules that apply to availability of funds. It's really important to know when your money really becomes your money to spend. HINT: the larger the amount the longer it may take to be "yours". And a direct deposit paycheck is 'all yours' faster than depositing a paper check. NO there is no law that says paychecks must be honored in full right away. Companies have been know to issue NSF checks.

Unfortunately credits made back to an account using a debit card more often than not do not post to the account as quickly as the actual purchase debit does. The very large bank I used to work for would work with a customer (in good standing) and credit fees when we were able to see a debit, credit, another debit occurrence like what you described. However, it was not automatic. The customer had to notice and request a refund of fees in a timely manner. Timely manner usually means within that statement cycle, before the next one is printed. 

Another thing to be aware of is how the 'hold system' operates. This may vary from bank to bank, but there is a usual method. What do I mean by 'hold'? Example; if you use your debit card at a gas pump, the card is first scanned and the gas station system calls your bank and does a test, places a hold, on a certain amount of money. This varies from gas station to gas station; it's set by the vendor not the bank. It used to be that the amount 'held' was only a dollar... just enough to make sure the account was active. In the last couple of years the amount has been frequently raised to $50 or even $100. Okay. Then you pump the gas. Let's say you have a total sale of $60 and the amount 'held' was $50. At the end of the day, all your debits will be totaled and subtracted from the balance in descending order. IF that station is on the ball and does the FINAL processing in a timely manner the actual $60 amount gets subtracted from your account. However, IF the station is slow or if they bundle many transactions and submit them in bulk (to save them processing fees) thru their bank periodically through the day your purchase may miss your banks processing time. In that case the $50 on 'hold' is kept as a 'held' amount by your bank and at the end of that day your balance will show $10 too much. (The bank doesn't yet know that you spent $60, not the $50). So if you check your balance, it's incorrect... then if you spend that $10 that's not really there, you could overdraw your account. No bank will cover you for that.

The holds are usually programmed to drop off the account after 3 days if no final sale amount is sent through. I have seen cases where a sloppy vendor has sent the purchase amount through months after the purchase date and cause the account to overdraw. No bank will cover you on that either.

On the other hand IF the gas pump 'hold' was for $100 and the purchase was only $60, you could end up with $40 too much being held for a day or so. That could cause you to have a purchase denied for not having sufficient funds in the account. That sort of thing can usually be fixed, but it takes a phone call.

Another problem can arise when using a debit or credit card for online or telephone purchases. Most often you must enter your card number after the purchase items are all listed, but before clicking the final confirmation button. After the card number has been entered it is usual for the vendors system to place a hold on the dollar amount of the sale. They want to be assured that your account is valid and you have the money/credit to cover your purchase. They get an authorization for the amount. When you click the final okay everything gets recorded, they get the money, you get the goods shipped, and everything should be fine. BUT, if you do not complete the transaction, that amount may remain on 'hold' until the end of the business day. You know you didn't spend the money but the computer doesn't yet know it. If you are running your account close to the edge and then go and actually try to complete a sale with another vendor you might run into the situation where your request is denied. Once again a phone call can usually sometimes resolve the issue, but it will take time and hassle. But that's the way the system works.

The hold system is not new nor unique to any one bank. Most of the time you don't know it's even happening, unless your account runs too close to or over the limit. It does pay to know the rules you're playing under. But virtually nobody I know ever read them all. The print is too small and there's too much of it. I've read it (for my bank) but that's because I worked there and had to know them.

continued below/above/whatever

[MountainDon]

continued from above/below/previous post


A note: If you ask for a fee refund and are refused it MIGHT help to ask for a supervisor. It probably won't, but here's why I suggest it. Bank telephone customer service reps (and live tellers as well) have limits, usually monthly, to the total amounts of refunds they are 'allowed' to give out. There'll be a suggested maximum amount per transaction, per customer, per month. IF the service rep goes over that amount they might lose 'points' in the automated grading system. It's a fair system and it isn't. If there were no limts too many service reps would give away too many refunds for unsound reasons. They'd give them out because it was easier, because they got yelled at less. Trust me, I tried to be very objective in my work. Most fees that people get charged are their own darn fault. Most. Not all. In a case like Scott's I'd give the customer the fee refund. And I would document why. There's a comment system that can be used and should be used by reps, but are not always. So where is this rambling going?... Ask for the supervisor. IF you have a solid legitimate  case the supervisor may give the refund because they are exempt from "quotas". 

A next to final note: "business day" when talking banking usually means Monday thru Friday. Never mind that your bank branch may be open on Saturday. Monday thru Friday. Period! (this may vary with your bank... ask questions) And there is a 'cut-off' time. That may be different for an actual in person purchase, an online transaction or an ATM transaction. If you miss the cut off time on a Friday your transaction may not be processed until Monday evening. That can screw you around.

A final note: People with more money in a bank get treated better than people who overdraw their account frequently. Fact of life. Maybe not 'fair' in some folks minds, but there it is.

If you made it thru to here I hope you learned something useful. Need more; ask.

[MountainDon]

.... check everything.

Goes without saying.... who's money is it after all? And check in a 'timely manner'. If you read the staement in full, usually there is a time limit to dispute charges. Outright fraud may be different, but fee disputes have definite limits, normally within one statement cycle, maybe two. Check with your bank.

I'd still rather keep my money in a bank over under the mattress or in a sock. Ya' just got to know the banks rules. It doesn't do much good to scream after the fact most of the time.

[glenn kangiser]

BTW Citibank is having problems --cutting cash withdrawals in half ---and who knows what all is up.  We are switching one our accounts out of it.

[benevolance]

Seems to me that if we have to ask for a supervisor and rant and rave at the bank to get our own money back that they have already won... Meaning that the system is completely stacked against the customer and individual and even if you get a fee back today the writing is on the wall and there is no way that the little guy can win.

Best thing you can do is pull the money and refuse to use the bank at all.

I like what Sassy said about her and Glenn's retirement plans...Amass as much land and equipment as possible work with it live off of it and when you are done with it... if need be sell it to live...

we cannot take it with us.... Why would we leave it in the bank a  1% interest to be charged fees when we want to make a withdrawl or write a check...

There are accounts where you can avoid some of the fees...But many of them require you to leave 10,000 in the account at all times...

I have not written ten cheques in my life...I bet it has been 10 or 12 years since I even tried...I do not have a bank card either... I am not giving the bank an excuse to take my money...When I run out of money at the house I march into the bank and in person withdraw a little from the account my wife and I have together... Otherwise I keep it in my pocket When I sell a car I never deposit the money in the bank...I give my wife some if she needs some for the bills and such and I put the rest in the sock drawer as it were

I am not sure why people rely so heavily on the banks... when I worked for AT&T I had direct deposit...I would go to the bank on payday in person and withdraw all the money from the account save 5 bucks which the bank charged me at the time each month for having the account...this was 10+ years ago and I considered it a rip off that the bank charged me 60 bucks a year to have an account.

We read in the news every year bank profits are up and each quarter sets a new record for bank revenue...It is at the expense of the average person....They fee you to death and pay you nothing to use your money for the so called convenience of being charged to use your own money...

A complete scam.

[MountainDon]

Seems to me that if we have to ask for a supervisor and rant and rave at the bank to get our own money back that they have already won...

The 'secret' is do not rant and rave. Remain calm but be resolute. Ranting and raving will turn the most cheerful, most friendly, most upbeat service rep totally against you. I'll be honest and upfront... when a person became belligerent I was predisposed to NOT giving them what they were wanting, no matter what. I always tried to be honest and give them their due, a fair shake. But if the person on the other end of the line was being 'nasty' that was a point against them. That's human nature.

I repeat, know the rules. Play within them. You will only pay fees when you play outside the rules or enter into the penalty zones. I have not paid a bank or credit card fee in decades. Not because I got favors as an employee. But because I knew the rules and played by them. On the couple of occasions when I did mess up and was charged a fee for being late in making a payment or whatever, I was able to receive a refund by asking for the refund and remaining civil. I find that easier than butting my head against walls.  OMMV. 

[Sassy]

We have great credit & once in awhile, Glenn has to wait for his checks longer than planned - I'll wait to pay the bills as long as I can, or since we get bills at both places, I may pick up the bills in the valley & only have a few days to pay - it seems to take at least 10 days for the credit card or mortgage companies to post payments - sometimes the pmt will reach them a day or 2 late.  I'll call them up & explain the situation - they look at my pmt history & always refund it.  Just rec'd a copy of one of our credit reports.  Perfect credit...  one of these days I hope to not have any credit card bills.

Benevolance, you are much more disciplined than we are or than we were when we were younger.  Actually, I never had any bills except my mortgage & student loan & the regular bills for utilities etc.  until I married Glenn    but then we have a lot more property & equipment.  When you look at what we owe, it is a small percentage to what we own...

BTW, I worked in a bank for 10 years in Washington...  New Accts Rep, loans, real estate... 

I don't really trust banks either - not when you see how they loan out more than what their assets are.  Now, debt is considered an asset to the bank - just like the Federal Reserve - they print the money out of thin air, there is nothing backing it, loan it to the gov't, we pay the interest on it & every billion we buy, they can loan out $15 billion - nice racket - no wonder so many banks & S&L's go under    Right now Citibank is looking ripe for a run - but then, our nice gov't (read us taxpayers) will bail out all those risky loans - the banks will come out ok in most cases, or at least the ceo's & they'll repossess the property/homes but the depositors, & taxpayers will pick up the bulk of the debt & those who borrowed too much are left without anything, too. 

[benevolance]

Sassy

I got sick of the banks when I got out of school and owed all that money...And then I started to see how evil the system was... I had to get almost fanatical to save myself from their system and the cycle of poverty

Not sure exactly that discipline was what I had... more so desperation. I have been in the bank like maybe three times in the last 4 years...I hate them... I am sure nice people work there and all... But being self employed and owning my own house they still think I am high risk and all of that etc..

I tried to buy a house maybe 7 years ago and I had a down payment of 15% saved up and I was self employed and they laughed at me because I did not have any credit cards or anything like that... That was about the time I swore off the banks for good... The system is rigged... If you have credit cards bank cards and use them you have to pay to use them and it costs you a fortune in interest and fees...Which hurts you... if you refuse to use bank cards and credit cards to save money they say you have no credit history...In essence they are forcing you into a system where you have to accumulate debt....they will make the money off the debts max out what they can charge you in interest and fees and count on you not being able to control or pay that debt off and thus enslave you into a lifetime cycle of poverty where you will make payments for the rest of your life to the bank...

Kind of like we are seeds and we will feed them forever once we grow and start producing for them. There is no real way to beat the bank... it is their system and it is designed to make them money no matter what you do...the only thing you can do is to limit your dealings with them as much as possible.

[ScottA]

It dawned on me on the way home from home depot that this might happen. I checked my account online that day and the transactions where in the correct order. Sometime later they where rearranged to create the overdraft. All 3 transactions posted on the same day. I didn't discover the changes until yesterday. I'm sorry but no matter what the rules are thats just crooked.

[Redoverfarm]

When my wife and I got married we had two different bank's.  We kept it that way and we had a regular passbook savings account at hers. Well they started the policy of requiring a activity in the account to be made every six months or a penalty would apply. So there was a period of time that there was no activity in that account as funds were needed elsewhere. Yep you got it. They tapped a penalty for inactivity.  Yep your right I went to the bank and withdrew my funds and closed the account and moved it to my bank where there is no such policy.

My wife always harps on me to get a debit card. I tell her that I have enough trouble keeping my checking account reconsiled with a check and a debit card would be worse. Yes I am the guy in the commercial that stops everything by writing a check.  I guess it is old school but I like it better.

I have had accounts from one end of the state to the other(frequent moves associated with the job) and I have found out that the banks without any association with a major firm are the best to deal with as it's decisions are local and they are not held by the regulations of the larger firms. Mergers are great for stockholders but disastrous for the common local folks when it comes to cooperation and communication. I guess Don you will not aggree but they were here first. But the downside is "so were the indians".

[desdawg]

I use a credit card for many of my purchases. I pay it off every month. Each quarter I get a little check back from the card company based on my usage. It has to be the best card I have ever had.

[MountainDon]

... If you have credit cards bank cards and use them you have to pay to use them and it costs you a fortune in interest and fees...Which hurts you...

IF you use the credit card like we have used credit cards for over two decades, you too will never pay the bank  or credit card company any fees. Pay the full balance off by the due date. DO NOT use it if you know you do not have the ability to pay the amount in full. No body forces you to spend money you do not have, except for cases of emergency and we're not talking that here. We're talking everyday living expenses where you use the CC as if you were spending cash. And if you have the right card, like desdawg, you get cash back. What a deal.

Plus you establish being a good credit risk, and will have other banks stampeding their way to your door with offers. You don't have to accept them. In fact I don't like them, but that's another story.

It's a modern world. It's the only one we have. I find it easier to know the rules and play within them. OMMV.

Sassy, you've found the 'secret'. You are a good customer and the bank/CC company knows it and they give you a break when you have a mis-step along the way. I bet you are polite on the phone. Polite and politely firm go a long ways when talking to customer service reps.

[Sassy]

"Sassy, you've found the 'secret'. You are a good customer and the bank/CC company knows it and they give you a break when you have a mis-step along the way. I bet you are polite on the phone. Polite and politely firm go a long ways when talking to customer service reps."


Ummm, most of the time...      Sometimes I have to go through so many different recordings, Spanish etc, they want you to say your response & then it doesn't understand what you said & that can go on for 5 min.  Then you have to wait on the line for another 5-10 min & sometimes you get cut off & have to repeat the whole thing, & then, oftentimes this isn't the 1st time you've had to call them about a screw-up - by then, I have little patience    I apologize to the person I'm talking to (if they are polite in the 1st place) & tell them it is not them, it is their system that has me totally frustrated...!  There's ways of getting to talk to people fairly quickly, but sometimes it takes a couple times of contacting them to figure that out... 

[glenn kangiser]

Yesterday she was funny --- she was yelling at a recording (bank phone answering system), "Don't talk to me in Spanish."  One of her pet peeves, although she speaks quite a bit of Spanish, somehow she feels that this is the USA and she thinks English is the national language.  Ha....

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." –Thomas Jefferson

What did Thomas know that we choose to ignore? hmm -- I guess it's the system.

[benevolance]

Don

we all understand the policy of borrowing money or spending money off a credit card...Paying the bill on time to limit or erase any additional charges etc.... There are a lot of rules and the whole point of their system is to try to get you to spend money that you do not have..

I am sure that they had accountants work with a semantics guy to tweak a system where 99% of the people do not take the steps you do and avoid the extra fees penalties interest etc... They are counting on 99% of the people not being like you....

[Dan]

I agree, banks and credit card companies can be a real hassle to deal with when things don't go quite right, but I have always been able to come to a reasonable solution with both by being nice and patient.  Right now I pay neither of them fees or interest except on my home loan.  I pay most of my bills and buy most things with my credit card which I pay off every month.  Not only do I not pay fees, but the card gives me 3% cash back for gas and grocery purchases, and 1% cash back on everything else, including all the utility bills etc that get paid on the card.

[glenn kangiser]

Looks like this has been going on for a long time.

"We have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks. Some people think the Federal Reserve Banks are U.S. government institutions. They are private credit monopolies; domestic swindlers, rich and predatory money lenders which prey upon the people of the United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign customers. The Federal Reserve banks are the agents of the foreign central banks. The truth is the Federal Reserve Board has usurped the Government of the United States by the arrogant credit monopoly which operates the Federal Reserve Board." –Congressman Louis T. McFadden, Chairman of the House Banking and Currency Committee, addressed the House on June 10, 1932

...and ...yes, I of course am a victim of the system also --- question is -- would I have more or less if I didn't use it? hmm  Since we are all stuck in the middle of the system, not participating at all and surviving is another problem.  I can still hate the system though.

[Sassy]

Great video "Money as Debt"  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279&q=money+as+debt&total=2000&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

[Sassy]

Here's a link to another discussion on money, banks, Federal Reserve etc

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=3220.msg34238#msg34238

and yet another video - English humor on how the "market" works  http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/187.html

[MountainDon]

My wife always harps on me to get a debit card. I tell her that I have enough trouble keeping my checking account reconciled with a check and a debit card would be worse. Yes I am the guy in the commercial that stops everything by writing a check.  I guess it is old school but I like it better.

You are doing the right thing for you. You understand your check book limitations and are smart to avoid a debit card. If you have trouble with accounting for paper checks it will only get worse if you start using the debit card. I've seen that too many times.

[MountainDon]

....we all understand the policy of borrowing money or spending money off a credit card...... They are counting on 99% of the people not being like you....

If you understand the rules like you profess, then the only way you get yourself into trouble is by over spending. The CC statements are about as straightforward as they can be. When our bill comes we look at the box that states the total amount due. I know if I pay that I will not be paying the bank any fees or interest. None . Nada. It's not rocket science. So I then set the payment up using my banks Billpay feature on their website. I set it to pay the business day before the due date and forget about it.

All it takes is knowing how much you can spend and being certain that your bank or CC compnay receives the money by that date.

[MountainDon]

I made my first comments on this topic with the idea of explaining some of the ways the bank system works. I did not mean this treatise to be a defense of the practices of the banking system. There are things I personally may not agree with, but I feel I need to take part in the 'game' to operate my life in a manner that is convenient to me. Like any endeavor, poker, football, car racing, hunting, you need to know and understand the rules before you play. Otherwise at some point you are going to run afoul of the rules and be penalized.


Regarding the telephone system and all the number punching and waiting. There are bypasses to many systems.  With my bank for example pressing the ZERO key a couple of times will take you to a human.   Follow this link  How to Bypass Most Phone Menus and Get to a Live Operator

Many places with voice recognition systems may route you more directly if you say the word associate or operator. Others may route you to a human if you don't say anything at all.

[benevolance]

Don

I have no issue because I refuse to play the game... The whole premise of a credit card is to get people to use money that is not theirs that is not covered by money in their account.

A few people are on top of this have lots of money in the bank like you and can avoid fees... the other 99% cannot... The bank tells you it is okay to make payments they set you up with reward progams for using the card and all of that.

I know all about it...AT&T used the same type of crap they created a system that would allow them to make billions... When I started working for them the first digital networks were being built in Florida Pittsburgh and New York...And we were trying to get people to give up their bulletproof analog phones for the terribly weak signal of digital...We would offer them all kinds of rewards for switching... free for months...Try to get people to give up their land lines for the cell phones... The thinking was that costs are fixed with the landline...With the cell there was roaming and out of call area usage... peak usage... and so on and so forth...Back then nobody had a cheaper cell phone bill compared to their landline...

AT&T even came up with a catchy slogan...We would tell customers that it was the only phone you need...it was pure baloney...They had ads showing it to be slim light weight and convenient...Selling it as a safety measure...And the whole point was to get you used to taking it with you so that you would talk on the phone more often and the like...and the end result would be a increase in the monthly bill.

It is all a scam designed to get as much money out of the average person as possible.