How would you insulate my camp if money were no object??

[eggman]

Here's the situation. I have a father who loves the idea of spray foam insulation. Can't get enough of the stuff. Wants to insulate my camp the best way possible. But neither of us has a clue and I'm concerned about moisture, rot, and off gassing that can come with it..

The camp:
12x24 balloon framed 1950s camp in the mountains of New Hampshire. Sills were replaced ten years ago. About the same time, it looks like they put some foam board and strapping to hold it up under the floor boards.

I bought it in Jan 09 and gutted it. It's my weekend get away. I live two hours away. Ripped all the mouse poop laden pink insulation out of the walls, blew out half of the attic floor and made a sleeping loft on the other half. Replaced the entire roof system with new rough sawn rafters, boards, tar paper, and black steel roofing. The place is perfectly south facing.. White cedar clapboards. New windows. Perf soffets leading to a nice ridge vent. It's windy in there.

So my father wants to spray foam the whole thing. Walls, rafter bays and under the foam board in the crawl space..

What would you do?

[bayview]

   Free labor . . . Free materials!  Let him at it!  My place next.

   Seriously,  I understand that spray foam is probably the best way to go, if affordable.  Has a very good insulation value per inch.

[MountainDon]

I'd get an estimate from a couple of installers and then see if he's still gung-ho on spray in foam.

I'd ask about whether or not mice like or dislike nesting in foam. I believe they will gnaw their way into and through it if they can get access.

Spray in foam has great R-value per inch and seals against air infiltration. It also costs the most per inch.

Next best down the pricing scale is wet blown in cellulose. It too is a job for a pro installer. Neither the spray in foam or wet blown cellulose is a DIY affair. You can buy DIY foam kits, but I'd rather not deal with it myself. Someone here has done some, but I don't recall who.

But before you do insulation you need to do something about the mice infiltration. Deer mice can enter through a very small space, a 1/4" space under a door, a space beside an ill fitting siding board, plumbing or electrical, etc.

[rwanders]

Closed cell spray foam is definitely the Cadillac of insulation, but Mt Don is right about sealing tightly against mice and it would be best to cover any foam in the crawl space with hardware cloth---mice can gnaw through just about anything else. Metal hardware cloth is also a good critter barrier at vents or anyplace a crack might give a mouse,shrew or squirrel ideas.

[eggman]

Good ideas. So I've gotten some prices for closed foam and the avg installed rate is .85 per sqf 1in thick. So the question is. How many inches and how do I deal with the roof vents?

[MaineRhino]

I used the two-part sprayfoam kit to do the floor in my 20x26 camp. It ended up being 2" to 4" thick in places when it expanded. Standard faced insulation was used in the 2x6 walls , and 8" in the ceiling.

We had to go the DIY route because no sprayfoam contractor could make it up our goatpath road. It's a very messy job. Be sure to wear a Tyvek suit or other clothing protection.

I think it may become too expensive to do the entire cabin walls and roof with that stuff. It runs about $700 which covers roughly 800 sq. ft. at appx 2-4" coverage. It was maybe 55-65 degrees outside when we did it.

Verdict?   We love it!  It made the floors much warmer, and also acts as a vapor, rodent and ant barrier. At least so far.   

[eggman]

I used the two-part sprayfoam kit to do the floor in my 20x26 camp. It ended up being 2" to 4" thick in places when it expanded. Standard faced insulation was used in the 2x6 walls , and 8" in the ceiling.

We had to go the DIY route because no sprayfoam contractor could make it up our goatpath road. It's a very messy job. Be sure to wear a Tyvek suit or other clothing protection.

I think it may become too expensive to do the entire cabin walls and roof with that stuff. It runs about $700 which covers roughly 800 sq. ft. at appx 2-4" coverage. It was maybe 55-65 degrees outside when we did it.

Verdict?   We love it!  It made the floors much warmer, and also acts as a vapor, rodent and ant barrier. At least so far.   

Nice work. I heard that mothballs in each corner of the cabin can help deter the deer mice too.

[Okie_Bob]

Believe I'm the first guy on here to go with Icynene insulation and have been a huge proponent of it ever since.
Icynene is the brand name and you can do a search and find a whole bunch of info on it.
I don't know about problems with mice. We don't have a lot of mice around here and I don't have ANY problem with them
now or ever before I built this house.
I seem to recall that Icynene is about R= 7 per inch but, it could be much lower than that. It does not off gas anything at all
as it uses water. It does not require any fire retardent or insect barrier either.
I love the stuff and highly recommend it. It's not cheap but, I feel it pays for itself quickly and gives years of comfort to your home.
We are experiencing the coldest winter in memory here in E Texas. Past two days didn't get above freezing and avg temps are way below normal. From Christmas Eve through NYEve I don't believe the temp was above freezing either and I recently received my latest
electric bill. It was $165 and by far the highest ever. I'd hate to see what it would have been without Icynene and other things I did
to ensure conservation of energy.
Stepping down off my soap box now.
Okie Bob

[MountainDon]

I heard that mothballs in each corner of the cabin can help deter the deer mice too.

I've heard that too, but they are also not good to have laying about if you have pets or small children you value. They also smell bad to people. Perhaps there is a time for using them, as in helping to rid an area of an infestation. I don't think I'd like to use them as a permanent defense against mice though.

[MaineRhino]

I've heard that too, but they are also not good to have laying about if you have pets or small children you value. They also smell bad to people.

I agree, that's why we have a dog.   

[Redoverfarm]

On the subject of Mice.   I ran across this on another forum.  Might be worth a try.

This year I read about a product called "Fresh Cab" It's a botanical rodent repellent that is supposed to keep the critters away. It comes in little bags that you place around. Bought at Crane Creek Gardens but there are probably other marketers out there. The local and big box hardware stores never heard of it. It's not a poison and safe for the environment if that's a concern. Hope this helps.

[eggman]

Believe I'm the first guy on here to go with Icynene insulation and have been a huge proponent of it ever since.
Icynene is the brand name and you can do a search and find a whole bunch of info on it.
I don't know about problems with mice. We don't have a lot of mice around here and I don't have ANY problem with them
now or ever before I built this house.
I seem to recall that Icynene is about R= 7 per inch but, it could be much lower than that. It does not off gas anything at all
as it uses water. It does not require any fire retardent or insect barrier either.
I love the stuff and highly recommend it. It's not cheap but, I feel it pays for itself quickly and gives years of comfort to your home.
We are experiencing the coldest winter in memory here in E Texas. Past two days didn't get above freezing and avg temps are way below normal. From Christmas Eve through NYEve I don't believe the temp was above freezing either and I recently received my latest
electric bill. It was $165 and by far the highest ever. I'd hate to see what it would have been without Icynene and other things I did
to ensure conservation of energy.
Stepping down off my soap box now.
Okie Bob

Can you tell me how you applied it under your roof deck? Did you use a vapor barrier and sheet rock? I'm trying to avoid the sheetrock so I'm glad to hear you don't need it as a fire block.

[John Raabe]

Here is a video on the installation on Icynene. This work is done by a specialty contractor.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5933306707479416198#

Here are some other pros and cons at HowStuffWorks.

http://blogs.howstuffworks.com/2009/05/14/how-icynene-foam-insulation-works/

[eggman]

Here is a video on the installation on Icynene. This work is done by a specialty contractor.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5933306707479416198#

Here are some other pros and cons at HowStuffWorks.

http://blogs.howstuffworks.com/2009/05/14/how-icynene-foam-insulation-works/

Wow, I think I'll take my chances with the mice after reading that.

[Okie_Bob]

John, I read the link you supplied and have some real problems with some of it. First, what out-gassing? I could be wrong but, I believe the guy that had been out of his house for months due to out-gassing must have used something beside Icyene. There is no out-gassing with Icynene. They use water as the carrier and I stood in the room right next to the guy spraying it on and there is NO smell at all, at least that I could detect. And, it sets up within seconds and there is no moisture at all. I don't see how you could get mold unless you have a water leak. In my garage, with an open ceiling, I can look up and see the icynene clearly. It has been up now close to five years and it looks exactly like it did when first applied. I suspect if you were to have a water leak behind the sheetrock on an Icynene treated wall cavity you will have a mold problem. But, that would be true with any insulation that I'm aware of.
I'm pretty shocked to see any negative comments about Icynene as I have not experienced any problems at all and am totally happy with the product and it has lived up to my expectations and then some.
To respond to the question about how Icynene was installed in my roof, here goes! My roof is a 12:12 pitch metal roof. I used factory trusses and have a loft in one end. The trusses are sissor trusses. On top, there is 3/4 OSB with 30# tar paper on top of the OSB and then the metal screwed on top of the tar paper.
Under the trusses, the voids between the top stringer is filled with Icynene all the way, from the ridge to the walls with NO venting.
Sheetrock is then applied to the bottom of the trusses, taped, bedded and painted. On the loft end, the trusses are again factory made for a loft. On the top everything is the same as the other end. Underneath, the voids between joists are filled with Icynene and the end walls are all filled with Icynene. So, again a completely sealed structure.
I have Icynene in all exterior walls flush with the inside of all studs and I have Icynene under the floor (pier and beam) to a thickness of 4". The house is extremely tight and very quiet. (I have fresh make up air.) I installed an 18 SEER A/c unit and it has a three stage compressor and variable speed fan. You cannot hear the a/c or feel any breeze from the air movement.
I'm bragging, I guess but, I could not be more happy with the results. Oh, I also used high quality windows and no windows at all on the east or west side and a 10' covered deck along the entire east side and north side facing the lake.
This is probably more than you wanted to know but, once I got started I couldn't stop.
Icynene is fantastic and I'd definately use it again if I had a need.
Okie Bob

[eggman]

John, I read the link you supplied and have some real problems with some of it. First, what out-gassing? I could be wrong but, I believe the guy that had been out of his house for months due to out-gassing must have used something beside Icyene. There is no out-gassing with Icynene. They use water as the carrier and I stood in the room right next to the guy spraying it on and there is NO smell at all, at least that I could detect. And, it sets up within seconds and there is no moisture at all. I don't see how you could get mold unless you have a water leak. In my garage, with an open ceiling, I can look up and see the icynene clearly. It has been up now close to five years and it looks exactly like it did when first applied. I suspect if you were to have a water leak behind the sheetrock on an Icynene treated wall cavity you will have a mold problem. But, that would be true with any insulation that I'm aware of.
I'm pretty shocked to see any negative comments about Icynene as I have not experienced any problems at all and am totally happy with the product and it has lived up to my expectations and then some.
To respond to the question about how Icynene was installed in my roof, here goes! My roof is a 12:12 pitch metal roof. I used factory trusses and have a loft in one end. The trusses are sissor trusses. On top, there is 3/4 OSB with 30# tar paper on top of the OSB and then the metal screwed on top of the tar paper.
Under the trusses, the voids between the top stringer is filled with Icynene all the way, from the ridge to the walls with NO venting.
Sheetrock is then applied to the bottom of the trusses, taped, bedded and painted. On the loft end, the trusses are again factory made for a loft. On the top everything is the same as the other end. Underneath, the voids between joists are filled with Icynene and the end walls are all filled with Icynene. So, again a completely sealed structure.
I have Icynene in all exterior walls flush with the inside of all studs and I have Icynene under the floor (pier and beam) to a thickness of 4". The house is extremely tight and very quiet. (I have fresh make up air.) I installed an 18 SEER A/c unit and it has a three stage compressor and variable speed fan. You cannot hear the a/c or feel any breeze from the air movement.
I'm bragging, I guess but, I could not be more happy with the results. Oh, I also used high quality windows and no windows at all on the east or west side and a 10' covered deck along the entire east side and north side facing the lake.
This is probably more than you wanted to know but, once I got started I couldn't stop.
Icynene is fantastic and I'd definately use it again if I had a need.
Okie Bob

This is exactly what I needed to know. Thank you. What is the footprint of your place?

[eggman]

Oh, and how many inches did you put in the rafters and the walls? Do I have to use sheet rock or can I do a vapor barrier and barn board?

[Dave Sparks]

Eggman,

It sounds like your windows are not in! Have you considered the Serious Materials R10 windows? It is hard to not consider the heat loss of windows and there are now options that can make up for quite a bit of loss in other areas.

[dougpete]

What brand of diy foam did you use?

[eggman]

Eggman,

It sounds like your windows are not in! Have you considered the ? It is hard to not consider the heat loss of windows and there are now options that can make up for quite a bit of loss in other areas.

The windows are in. Crappy craigslist silverline dublehungs. I'll keep your windows in mind for the next project out back. Thanks, Steve

[MaineRhino]

Look at http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=7840.msg101582#msg101582  for more details on the DIY foam kits.

[eggman]

Look at http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=7840.msg101582#msg101582  for more details on the DIY foam kits.

I wish I had that much room under my camp!