A 24'x18' straw bale lodge

[ScottA]

I'm betting on the virgin birth route.

I'm betting you're dreaming.

[glenn kangiser]

I actually thought the Palin women were alright until they became soiled by politics...

[glenn kangiser]

Drew, this lady has a few thoughts Robin may want to consider...



Meet the 105-year-old virgin

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1788363.ece

[glenn kangiser]

You know, for 105 she looks damn good...   Maybe she really does have a point.  Possibly someone could tell us?

[Drew]

Some of this might be off topic, but it's time to put something here.

The plastic cover on the roof OSB and the water treatment on the flooring are doing the trick.  That, and Mother Nature hasn't seen fit to wash and blow dry us out to Paradise.  Whatever it is, I'll take it.  This week we're getting a gentle rain right on top of my field.  Easy, now.  Eaasyyy.

The lodge is buttoned up for winter but we've still been at it.  Dan and I got accepted into the Freshman Farmer program at Peaceful Valley Farm Supply (www.groworganic.com).  We and our four fellow freshman will be blogging about our experiences in growing our farm, making videos, posting financials, and generally providing marketing content for PVFS.  In exchange we get favorable pricing, access to peers who are trying to do the same thing (I think I've seen that somewhere else before), and marketing for when we start our CSAs, go to the farmers' markets, and so forth.  One big advantage I see is that it helps keep us on a schedule.  There's nothing like a deadline to focus a man's mind.

The blogging festivities haven't started yet, but I'll mention it when they do.  Meanwhile Dan and I spent the day yesterday in the home office doing a lot of planning and whiteboarding (That's like waterboarding where you draw pictures of business processes until your prisoner either confesses or dies.).  It's a good thing to do when it's raining.  I got to finish our CCOF certification application and we came up with a set of scalable companion plant configurations and other stuff that made the day really worthwhile.

Next weekend we'll go back up and put in the last 8 trees (We put 8 citrus in a couple weekends ago) and do some work on the first field in anticipation of February planting. 

Here's the orchard.



We've prepped 400 sf. as a test field to grow about 16 crops for the family in the first year.  We like the idea of making our mistakes on our own dime instead of holding someone's CSA money or committing to 16 weekends at a farmers' market before we work the bugs out.  In addition to our 400 sf. for test growing we'll put in a cover crop for another 2,200 sf. and increase by 2,400 every year thereafter. 

We're going to try out the French intensive method (Sounds like something at the video store, huh?) for growing.  We have ~5 of our 20 acres we could grow on, but keeping it close and intense means less area we have to protect from predators, less equipment for irrigation and cultivation, and less soil we have to manage.  In theory we should get vegetables for one person for a year from 100 sf. of soil.  With 7,200 sf. (not counting the alternate rotation field) at the end of year 4 we should be able to arm our own militia.

We came up with a companion plant schema that should help protect against a lot of the bugs and disease, and I configured it to make the drip irrigation really simple.  It also scales for when we go bigger.

We're looking forward to a lot of "lessons" in farming this year from Mother Nature and those pesky wabbits that are almost as big as Henry was.  As with anything, we'll get off the couch, go outside, take our lumps, learn how to dodge, and try again.  I've learned a lot in the last few years since we got this place and if I'm lucky I'm not done yet.

[Redoverfarm]

Drew it is nice to hear from you again.  Sounds pretty interesting but also sounds like a little  work as well.  Leave time to work on your strawbale you will need someplace to get out of the rain while working as it will be a couple years til your trees are tall enough to get under  . 

[glenn kangiser]

Thanks for the update, Drew.  Always nice to hear from you. 

Soon you will see that those rabbits will make a nice addition to your vegetable dinner, and after the nice rabbit meal, you will  likely have enough energy to try the French intensive method.

[Jens]

common Glenn, wasn't that your prom date?   No!!  Don't!!!  Put that rock down Glenn!!!!  It was only a joke!! 

That doll is creeeeeeeppppy!   We did the egg, and the flower thing.  Your place is coming together quite nicely, and I think it is probably wise to wait with the bails.  No sense trying to rush things, and end up with rotting walls.

[phalynx]

Jens,  Glenn wouldn't throw a rock.  That is valuable building material.

[glenn kangiser]

Dudes, I am not that old.... but I do have enough rocks around here that a few missing wouldn't hurt too much...

[Drew]

Another off-topic question for you kind folks.

Any of you have experience with electric fences?  Using them, I mean.  Not being thwarted or attacked by them.

I need to fence in a growing field to keep deer and jackrabbits out.  I'm looking at a rectangle of about 100' by 2,400'.  I could do the regular ranch fence but I don't want to drive t-posts, stretch wire, put PT posts in the dirt, etc. unless I have to.

The 100' x 2,400' won't be needed all at once, either.  I only need 100' x 600 in the first year.

So I was thinking of sinking some PT posts in some concrete inside some 5 gallon buckets.  I use these as movable fence posts.  Instead of regular fence wire I use two electrical wires: one about 9" off the ground for the rabbits and one 3' off the ground for the deer.

I've never tried to keep deer or rabbits out of anything, so I don't know if this is enough to do the trick.  Have you guys done it?

If you think this could benefit from a larger audience please let me know and I'll repost it.

Thanks!

[MikeOnBike]

At 9" you might singe the bunnies ears if he goes through at the right time.  Most electric fences pulse.  Usually a mesh fence is used.

I don't think Bambi will know the fence is electric.  Most deer around here just jump gracefully over the fence.  Doesn't matter if it is electric or five foot tall five-strand barbwire.

[fishing_guy]

I would have to agree.  At 9", the bunnies will be doing the limbo all the way to supper.

The Deer present their own challenge.  The gardens I've seen up north have at least 8 ft. fences around them.  Some try things wuch as animal urine or dog hair.  If the deer like what they see though, there isn't much that will stop them.  From our State DNR website:

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/livingwith_wildlife/fences/index.html

And:

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/livingwith_wildlife/fences/index.html

[MountainDon]

very good, but they're both the same.   

[glenn kangiser]

Around here, the only way to really stop them is about a 7 or 8' high fence-- miles around vineyard in 2 places I know.

I tried the motion sensor sprinkler thing.  Our car would set the sensor off when we drove into the yard.  That would wake the deer up who were sleeping under it with full bellies from eating the garden and they would run off.

[Ernest T. Bass]

We have a friend who keeps the radio blaring in the middle of the garden.. The theory behind it is that the deer don't like hanging out where their hearing is impaired, thus leaving them more prone to predators. Don't know if it really works or not.... Make sure to pick a station that your plants will enjoy.

[glenn kangiser]

I can no longer find a radio station that wouldn't make the plants stupid.  

[Redoverfarm]

DREW your fence will have to be dual purpose.  A netting material such as rabbit wire or plastic netting (similar to snow fence) on the bottom.  As others have stated the fence for the deer will have to be at least 6-8 feet.  There is an individual that is putting in an orchard near here and he has researched fence for deer.  I don't recall exactly what he said but it had to do with two or three kinds of hedging.  Apparently they do not like three demensional barriers and that is what he will try to achieve.  The next time I see him(only partime for now) I will ask him.  He hasn't figured out how to keep the bear out though.  Maybe a permit to destroy?

Others have sworn that deer do not like to enter narrow areas.  Some gardeners here instead of a square garden arraignment are going to a more narrow rectangle area and swear that it has helped.  I for one have a 48" woven wire fence for cattle and they clear it like a pole vaulter at the olympics.

They did make a tensil fence for sheep that only had support poles that touched the ground in the majority of the run with very few permanent poles.  You could drive over the non support section with a tractor and after passing it would spring back up.  Maybe something like this with a couple of hot wires and insulators might help and you wouldn't have to make all the supports post permmanent. There was a name for it but it is escaping me now.  If I think of it I will repost.  

Here is one

http://www.nixalite.com/deerfencing.aspx?gclid=CPTH7fDerZgCFSMSagodAWnyUg

[glenn kangiser]

The deer walked around the narrow walk around our garage to get to the garden.

They are large rodents.  Don't trust them...

[Drew]

I was afraid of that.

Well, Dan and I talked about fencing and think we have a plan that will let us build on as we need it with a minimum of rework.

The fact that I am a vegetarian in no way means that I will not get medieval on any joker that wants to get at my field.   

Thanks for the advice, guys.  You saved me some screwing around.

[Jens]

Just make sure somebody eats it Drew!  Could feed some poor family through the winter.

[Redoverfarm]

Drew I contacted the gentleman on the fencing,  Enclosed is his reply.  Somewhat long but I think it has alot of merit.

So, when planting a crop that deer will find more nutritional, we need to offset the increase by making them perceive the food is located in higher threat areas while increasing the difficulty with access. So, we start by putting crops in the open, at least as much as the crops can sustain. However, as we see in the pastures around your and Del's house, being in the open is hardly enough to dissuade deer from eating, especially since they can choose the safest times of day to get at it. Therefore, we can also add (1) simulated threats like audible and visual signals that scare them off (but only temporarily); fences (that make the food a lot of work to get at); and other food alternatives.

For the fence itself, I am planning on using cheap "living" fences in combination with a manmade fence. Right now, the cheapest non-deer palatable living fence I can find are canadian hemlock hedgerows which are incredibly cheaper than any manmade fence, fast growing, thicker, and taller. I suspect there might be a few more alternatives yet as I research, but the best idea is strong thick living obstacles like hedges. Deer apparently find fences that are deep to be more intimidating than those that are just high (or strong). The hedge adds depth and reinforces the manmade fence. I will probably put the hedge behind the manmade fence but close enough so that if the deer push on the manmade fence then it will touch the hedge and not have much play between the two. Obviously, it's better if the deer can't eat the living fence, and hemlock is not edible. I am not saying that eating the fence is bad, b/c I can imagine certain advantages, but I don't see any disadvantage if they can't eat the fence. THere are some cheaper edible alternatives, but to me, the cost isn't justified.

I plan to plant the living fence first. Give it time to grow a little, before adding the manmade fence. having both in place before the crops are mature is key. This establishes a pattern/habit for the deer. The deer get used to the obstacle and going around it without having any incentive (i.e., my apples) behind it. Then, I will plant the trees and protect them as usual inside the fence.

If I find out that deer are breaching this fence system, I will add a third row in front of the man made fence. Electric tape, maybe 6 feet in front of the manmande fence, again, to add the perception of greater depth. They make a lot of fence tapes that are solar powered so as to save $ and labor. tape is better (for this use) b/c electric fences that are low to the ground require greater maintenance since weeds will grow up underneath and short out the fence or trip it. A single tape will be higher, and the higher the tape, then the higher the weeds can get without worry. Deer can easily go under if they want to, but it is one additional layer to negotiate, and touching it will provide strong negative feedback.

However, that's not the true benefit to electric tape. On the tape will be baits. In my case, apple scented. Purpose: to lure the deer to the bait so they lick it. When they do, zap. The deer learn by classical conditioning (i.e, pavlov) that apple scents can hurt. So, after a few zaps, they learn that the apple scents calling them over might be painful, and it takes a lot of effort to get to the ones that didn't zap them. I would recommend baiting with the scents that are luring the deer. Your friends organic garden should use those scents, but if he can't replicate them, no worry. The deer can still learn that the tape hurts and will likely stay away from the tape inandof itself.

Finally, I will bait the deer safely. Just like the rat, go to one food source and get shocked, go to 2nd food source and get fed. Soon the rat avoids the shock and eats safely. I will put food plots away from the apple/grape crops. These food plots will reward the deer for traveling outside my fence and away from the crops I want to protect by giving them cheap crops to eat instead. So long as they are fed, they won't find the effort required to negotiate my fence worth the risk when they have easy food somewhere else. I will put the feedplants with well-covered approach paths so deer feel safe moving into and out of the feedplots. I will also keep them near water as possible to help them be efficient with feeding and watering.

From there, with State permissions, we can kill deer out of season if they still are too aggressive against apple/grapes and not just sticking to the feed plots, but I think this is not a comprehensive solution. Too many deer. The goal is really to keep the deer away from my crops. Killing them all is ridiculously futile, and the population of any adaptable animal will only morph and remain a threat. A isolated kill can help in short term, unique conditions, but I think that developing behavior patterns using fences of great depth, height, and strength constructed of manmade and living materials with solar scent-specific shock feedback will push deer to our pre-planned, free, and low risk food/water alternatives.

[Drew]

Thanks for the post, John.  This is some really good information.  I'll have to come up with something man made since I can't wait for a hedge to grow, at least for this season.  The depth effect is an interesting point, and one made more than once here.  I might want to move the fence as I grow my fields, or at least put gates in between them as I add on.  A hedge is harder to move.

More planning.

I looked back at my bluster about getting rough with a deer in my field.  I can't even blame it on drink or lateness of the hour, which leaves only me talking out my blue jeans.  I'm not going to cap a deer in my field.  If I see him (Which I'm not likely to) I'll run him off.  He's much easier to move when he's alive. 

Maybe what I'll end up doing is putting up a respectable, economic fence and growing a crop.  Every day it lives will be a gift.  If something gets in, figure out how it happened and protect against it.  Hiring the Swiss Guard to watch my summer squash is a sure way to stay in the red.  Besides, I have a straw bale lodge to build!

[Squirl]

Red pepper works well too.  Washes off in the rain, though.  My grandfather had a heck of a time with deer.  He would be home most of the day with a pellet gun.  He planted the garden with a good view from his kitchen and enjoyed shooting the deer in the butt.  Not lethal and a hell of a sting.  Could be a fun game if you have children.  Goes back to the Pavlov argument.  The deer will learn eventually.

Some live traps might work for your rabbits.  You would have no trouble giving them away.  I know you are a vegetarian.  I don't know how this might effect your ethics.  But rabbits are great meat and fur.  In my area, people would line up for them. 

Also to help with both problems, there are more hunters than there is land in most areas.  People that open their lands for public hunting in our area get special tax benefits.  They can also get preferential treatment from local game wardens and law enforcement officials.  Or you could sell a hunting lease for your land.  As open space becomes more scarce this option is becoming more popular for people.

[Squirl]

  If I see him (Which I'm not likely to) I'll run him off.  He's much easier to move when he's alive. 

Just watch out.  I see this on nature channels.  I have seen deer stand their ground.  Sometimes they rather fight than flight.
http://www.sfgate.com/flat/archive/2005/10/20/news/archive/2005/10/20/state/n050930D10.html