the mess in Eldorado, TX

[StinkerBell]

MD,

I generally agree with you, but my fear is that this group first is seen as a religion. I agree about the abuse that has happened there in Texas. I think I have lined out my thoughts and the issue of Free Will. But I highly suspect at some point in the future that someone somewhere will think that certain aspects of my religion practices are abusive. I am not talking about physical abuse or anything like what has happened at this compound in Texas. But a very liberal agenda to invalidate my religious practices/beliefs. This is my fear.

[MountainDon]

I believe I understand your fear. There are too many people with extra-liberal views. Too many of those would like to impose their values, or lack of values as I see it, on everyone else. To some it's a case of virtually anything goes.

Myself, I see huge differences between the type of indoctrination that goes on within a closed group like the FLDS and other cults and how my Catholic, Presbyterian, Jewish, Lutheran and LDS (just to pick some that come to mind) friends and acquaintances teach their beliefs to their children.

[StinkerBell]

Thanks for the good discussion and allowing me t ask and work through some thoughts and concerns. It is very comforting to know that there is a sense of safety here to have a good discussion.

[Redoverfarm]

What is really disturbing is that of the girls removed I think there was 63 that were pregnant or have had a baby since their removal of the ages from 13-17. Not real sure on the exact #'s but I thought that was the figure they had given.

[ScottA]

I don't like what I'm seeing in the news on this but it's good they are finding facts. I hope they go through with prosecutions on those guilty. I still don't agree with the way they handled things though.

Don would you be so good as to define a cult? Is there some membership number they must have to become a real church? From where I sit pretty much every church looks like a cult in some way or other.

[StinkerBell]

I define a cult as a group that does not allow free will of choice of it members.

[ScottA]

I like that description StinkerBell. Someone called the LDS church a cult earlier. While I can tell you from personal knowlege they are full of crap. I can also tell you I walked away with little or no problems from them.

[MountainDon]

Cult...  a group using manipulative, deceptive or unethical techniques to recruit or control members. A group devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture or society considers to be outside the mainstream.

I don't have issues with the mainline LDS Church. I wouldn't subscribe to their form of religion, but that's simply my personal choice. I don't have any more issue with them than most others.

[NM_Shooter]

I don't care who ya are.  That there's funny.

Scroll to the bottom of the page and click on "Plural Girl Blues"

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4629743

[MountainDon]

     ....13 pages of honey'do's....

[John_C]

Someone suggested these women would be great candidates for an extreme makeover TV show.   

[glenn kangiser]

Women that have had a makeover scare me.

It's kind of like they are trying to hide something. 

I like 'em just the way they are.   (Most of the time.)

[ScottA]

You thought this story was over? The plot thickens.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24777095/

[peternap]

Glenn it is stuff like that, which scares me truly...It has always been my dream to live out in the woods away from people... But no matter what you do they will come for you it seems...

Luckily for me I have nothing to do with guns....It was stupid for the guy to sell an illegal gun to someone he did not personally know

Actually benevolance, it was NOT illegal. He was found not guilty. There are several ways to measure a barrel.

Now that I said that, I've met Randy Weaver several times. He sure isn't one of my heros.

[peternap]

Man....those women are kinda .......UGLY,

[StinkerBell]

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D90QRO280&show_article=1

Court rues that CPS had no right to take children from their families.

[MountainDon]

..., it was NOT illegal. He was found not guilty. There are several ways to measure a barrel.

Now that I said that, I've met Randy Weaver several times. He sure isn't one of my heros.

I didn't realize he was found not guilty. So I take back my comment about the first stupid thing he did.

[glenn kangiser]

Man....those women are kinda .......UGLY

Who knows, Peter --- seems that under that plain Jane facade lurks a couple of anything goes wildcats.

That ought to count for something.

[peternap]

..., it was NOT illegal. He was found not guilty. There are several ways to measure a barrel.

Now that I said that, I've met Randy Weaver several times. He sure isn't one of my heros.

I didn't realize he was found not guilty. So I take back my comment about the first stupid thing he did.

He did a lot of stupid things Don. While it would be nice to hold him up as a patriot and the government as the force of dark......The simple fact is, there weren't any good guys on Ruby Ridge.

He had as much to do with the killing of his son and wife as the FEDS did. Meeting him was not the high point of my life.

[MountainDon]

Thanks for that info, Peter. I appreciate it. In some circles he has attained folk hero status. I always thought he was plain stupid. And the government was stupid and heavy handed as well.

[peternap]

It's very easy to acheive the status of "Folk Hero" in some circles Don

His first black mark in my book is his association with white supremacists. I'm certainly no paragon of virtue but contrary to the movie image, Southern White People generally treat Southern Black People with respect and vice versa. There is certainly a barrier, but a respectful barrier. While I know only one Black Man that I consider a friend, I certainly don't consider all others animals to be tormented and humiliated. I know a few KKK members and I dislike them much more than most black folks.   I guess you could say I'm an honest raciest.

The second and worst flaw is that after being roped in by the ATF, instead of facing it like a man, he went home knowing full well they'd come after him. You don't endanger your family....period.

Third, he taught his son to hate. There's plenty of time to learn that for yourself. No need to start life fearing everyone and everything around and to hate anyone who disagrees with you. When his son should have been thinking about how to talk to the girl next to him, he was instead, learning to goose step.

Last, after his son and wife were killed, he went on the gun show circuit, peddling his book and actually making a living off of their deaths. He was even cocky about it. The times he came over to chat, my impression was that he was a jerk.

My opinion of the Government agents is just as bad. Murderers.......Like I said, no good guys up there.

[NM_Shooter]

I didn't know much of the story.  Some of each side presented here... mostly favoring the Weavers.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/1.html

-f-

[peternap]

That's a pretty accurate account as I understand it NM.
They do paint Weaver as being naive and uneducated in the legal system. Most of that came from Spence, whom is a masterful lawyer. (I have all his books).

Weaver wasn't naive though. He was actually a pretty sharp veteran.

[MountainDon]

Peter, I agree with your 5 point assessment.

Save me some time, Peter, what's the lawyer Spence's first name? Recommend any one of his books?

[glenn kangiser]

So - according to this and Stink's link above- the Court has investigated CPS claims and found that in several cases they were lying.  That's the little power trippers for you.  Even called a 27 year old an underage girl.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24777095

They screwed up by not going in there with tanks and machine guns -- to many women and children left alive so the true story is getting out.

I don't agree with the lifestyle but have seen too many small government goons on power trips to agree with them.  They just got lazy so thought they would just take them all rather than do a real investigation.  What they need is something like a radar gun so they could just determine the guilty ones from the front seat of their car while eating donuts and having a cup of coffee.

Note that I know some very good retired police who I consider friends so am not against all of them.  Heck -- I even know a few working ones who aren't too bad.