Joist Hanger/ledger

[GW]

I'm sure this has been asked before, but would it be ok to use joist hangers for the loft floor joists? I think this would be alot easier than letting in the ledger board. I'm going to be framing 2x6 on 16 oc, I was thinking how easy it would be to just attach a joist hanger onto each wall stud for the length of the loft.

[NM_Shooter]

I don't think you will find the hardware that you need, as I started out looking for this myself and didn't find anything.  Hangers are usually attached to the face of a ledger or beam. 

After watching the posts here for quite awhile, I became convinced that I needed to place the loft joists to rest on the top plates of my walls, and then also lay my roof rafters up against them and nail it all together.  The loft joists keep the wall and roof rafters from spreading, and no hangers are required. 

I didn't like the idea of "letting in" the studs either. 

[PEG688]

  You folks will go to all lengths to avoid what not all that hard.

If you have a knee wall above your second floor loft joist you need either a let in ledger , OR   a cripple stud / post directly under your floor joist.

A hanger bastardized to attach a joist to the face / edge of a stud WILL NOT  do the required job , of holding the floor up AND holding the wall  in / straight.

There's a good thread on Letting in joist, a "sticky" in this section and many other threads as to the "why" of it. 

G/L PEG

[glenn kangiser]

I agree with PEG. 

Not much to it if you follow his guidelines and by far the best way to do it.

It's kind of like saying the stuff above the floor is a bit hard to do so rather than continue building the house, let's pitch a tent on the deck. 

I think the quality members we have here are capable of anything if they really try.  Just need to get past thinking it is too hard and you can't do it.

[MountainDon]

Not meaning to gang up on you GW, but just in case you're still inclined to use hangers for this, Don't. It simply is not the best way and it is not all that difficult to cut the let-ins. You can do it with the hand portable circular saw you probably already own. It can also be done super nice and smooth with a router of you own one.

Here's that thread PEG mentioned.
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=1418.0

[GW]

Thanks for your replies. I was hoping to save some trouble but it will be inspected so I guess I'll be letting in the ledger. The plans I'm using seem to show a ledger but there isn't a detail on letting it in. I have the Victoria plans so I will follow that. I had decided to make the little 16 x 26 cottage but never figured out how to get it ready for submitting, I ended up buying a plan called the Weekend warrior, it looks very similar but uses parallel cord trusses. Anyway the plans went in a week ago and if all goes well I'll start building the beginning of June.

[glenn kangiser]

You'll find it to be easy, GW.  The rest of the guys would use proper tools - I'd do it with a chainsaw.

[John_C]

au contraire mon ami

A chainsaw IS a proper tool.

[glenn kangiser]

Thank you so much, John C.

[ced257]

I don't mean to be rude or butt in, but I use joist hangers every day! They are pretty tough! I think letting in a ledger is a good idea, but for those less experienced I think joist hangers are a great thing. I have built several houses with nothing but hangers and they work just fine! If your reallyed worried about it, then doulble up and use hangers and nail them in!

[Willy]

Or do it the over kill way like I did. I just framed in the 18' long 2x10 floor joists into the walls for my loft. Seemed like the easy way to build the wall no hangers or ledger cut in. This picture shows how I did it. Cost more for wood this way but realy I don't see much waste because the 2x10s made up part of the wall? Mark

[PEG688]

Or do it the over kill way like I did. I just framed in the 18' long 2x10 floor joists into the walls for my loft. Seemed like the easy way to build the wall no hangers or ledger cut in. This picture shows how I did it. Cost more for wood this way but realy I don't see much waste because the 2x10s made up part of the wall? Mark

Ah the only problem with that is the hinge point you've built in will not pass inspection , if you have no inspection it may be OK , BUT that hinge point is the reason for the let in ledger. Your rafters will be pushing on that wall forever , or until they win and push it over / out of plumb / out of wack.

So ya it might work  BUT it's not the way , or the best way to do it.

Lets hope your in  a low snow load area, you have a slick roofing material ,  like metal,  so less load can build , and you used lots of nails , and long collar ties  to hold that knee wall where you want it , and not where it's gonna want go with the rafters pushing them.

G/L PEG   

[Willy]

Or do it the over kill way like I did. I just framed in the 18' long 2x10 floor joists into the walls for my loft. Seemed like the easy way to build the wall no hangers or ledger cut in. This picture shows how I did it. Cost more for wood this way but realy I don't see much waste because the 2x10s made up part of the wall? Mark

Ah the only problem with that is the hinge point you've built in will not pass inspection , if you have no inspection it may be OK , BUT that hinge point is the reason for the let in ledger. Your rafters will be pushing on that wall forever , or until they win and push it over / out of plumb / out of wack.

So ya it might work  BUT it's not the way , or the best way to do it.

Lets hope your in  a low snow load area, you have a slick roofing material ,  like metal,  so less load can build , and you used lots of nails , and long collar ties  to hold that knee wall where you want it , and not where it's gonna want go with the rafters pushing them.

G/L PEG   

The rafters sit on 3 walls with one in the middle so they do not push out. I guess you could call it 2 shed roofs and each roof crosses over the top of this center wall. You can see it better in this picture. With the center wall there is no way the rafters can push out unless the center wall colaspes and it has a wall below it which is also above a beam and foundation posts. I can see what your saying if the 2x10 rafters just pushed against each other on a ridge board but there isn't one each end sits on a wall so there is no pushing out just down. Those last 4 - 12' studs are full length to the lower floor due to the stairs going in that spot to get to the loft. Mark

You can see the center wall the roof 2x10 rafters sit on in this picture. There is no ridge board holding them up to go down under load it is a shed rood design and 2 seperate roofs with one center wall holding them up.


This picture shows the center wall that holds up one end of the rafters in the middle at the ridge. How can this cause the side walls to push out built this way? Both ends of this wall are framed in and plywooded to the outside front and rear walls so it cannot tip or lean.


Another View showing all 3 walls that hold the rafters

[PEG688]

 Humm so there you go "it depends"      now if the original poster didn't have that center partition in his plan we'd have  a different storey.

Your original suggestion didn't have that important detail in it   . So it's easy to mislead folks with "just do it this way" advise thats can easily be taken out of context. Much like I took yours     my bad,   as the center partition did not show up very well in photo #1 .  But I was erring in a  stronger  design direction. 

I would suggest you stagger your sheathing in such a way as to act as a gusset / positive tie point  from the lower to upper walls , in addition to what you've done so far.

[Willy]

Humm so there you go "it depends"      now if the original poster didn't have that center partition in his plan we'd have  a different storey.

Your original suggestion didn't have that important detail in it   . So it's easy to mislead folks with "just do it this way" advise thats can easily be taken out of context. Much like I took yours     my bad,   as the center partition did not show up very well in photo #1 .  But I was erring in a  stronger  design direction. 

I would suggest you stagger your sheathing in such a way as to act as a gusset / positive tie point  from the lower to upper walls , in addition to what you've done so far.

Little late to do that now. I did nail the plywood seam into the rim joist by using 9 ft tall sheets. So some plywood goes over each wall and meets in the middle of the joist. All rafters have huricane clips or hangers at each (ridge & wall) end too. Mark

[GW]

After taking a better look at the plans I noticed that I can't inlet the ledger because it attaches at the top of the wall, I'll try to scan the image. Is there a good way to attach a ledger without notching?

[PEG688]

Well here's another " It depends" minute ,  what plan is that One of John's


So apon futher     review I'd really look at lowering the walls and sitting the  box sill and joist on top of the walls , You don't have ANY knee wall  , yes,  you'll have to figure out something at the door / window  headers  , maybe use  a continous beam over all the walls like Lindal homes sometimes does.

Do you have a thread going about the specfic plan your using ?

  Get us a extra large box of  "It depends" for this thread Glenn     

[glenn kangiser]

Looks like top of your wall is 9' with the loft joists and deck even with it on top.

For a let in, the ledger is let in at the bottom of the joists and they sit on top of it, extending into the wall cavity and stopping at the outside of the studs.  One is attached to the side of each stud.  Make sure studs match on both sides of the room -- are directly across from each other.  I don't see a problem.  Top of the joists will have to be notched for the top plates.

Looks like that detail shows hangers from the top plates though to me.  What does your  9/3 detail in the circle show?  It should tell the whole story of how the designer wants it done.

PEG, Dude-- you are here.  Ignore me if I'm wrong.

[glenn kangiser]

GW, note that we don't care if it is someone elses plan but it looks different than anything we have see John design -- possibly re-design by a local engineer? hmm

[Redoverfarm]

GW I tried to go back on Peggs post concerning this but alot of the photo's had been removed.  I think you could let-in the ledger, place extra studs on either side of the regular stud to support the weight of the joist.  You could tie the top plate into/onto the floor joist. This would mean that there would be a difference of elevation of 1-1/2" from the top of your plate to the top of your joist but when the added sheeting at the location (inside the kneewalls) I don't think it would be a issue at that location. 

[GW]

Peg, this is not one of John's plans, I bought the Victoria cottage plan but decided to build the 16x28 studio. After buying one of those 3d software programs I gave up and bought this set of plans. The company is called Robinson designs and this is their Weekend Warrior cabin. This  loft floor is really giving me a headache, although there is a 9/3 circle on the plan there is no detail anywhere.

[John Raabe]

Just to make clear this is not one of my designs. This is not a balloon-framed wall but a platform famed wall probably, as Glenn notes, with a floor system supported from hangers. The detail is supposed to be number 9 on sheet 3.

Barring the help of that detail you could use something like this

[GW]

Thanks John, there might be a mistake on the plans because #9 on page 3 gives the eave details only. Hangers would make it easy but I was somehow under the impression that they were not to code?   

[PEG688]

Thanks John, there might be a mistake on the plans because #9 on page 3 gives the eave details only. Hangers would make it easy but I was somehow under the impression that they were not to code?   

That detail 9-3 is about the soffit the joist and rim  / ledger just happens to be in the circle as a after thought /  or poor draftsman's circle work / drawing.


I'd really just lower the walls and use a double rim joist , it would be considered  a "header" so window and doors could be placed just about any where  EXCEPT within the first 4 feet of the corners to comply with the prescriptive code for a BWP.

The hanger John shows "generally" is a "I" joist hanger so a normal 2x will not fit unless you can find a 1 1/2" top flanged hanger they generally are not 1 1/2" wide but you may be able to force a 2x into one , whether it's code , I da know some inspectors might not except that style hanger with  real wood joist. 

I know they will except the bond beam type set up here and we are one of the worst places for inspector type issues.

The box beam / rim joist / platform framed  floor to me is a no brain er with that design. eliminates the hangs , allows flexible window and door placement , and is the strongest , easiest to build option that I see , knowing what I know about your plan , which isn't that much in the whole scheme of things, one page , or part of one page of 3 (at least)  total.     

[Redoverfarm]

GW sorry I wasn't much help but I was working on the assumption that you were sticking with the diagram provided and was looking for ideas to stay with the plans provided. It would necessitate dropping the ledger 1-1/2" .  Pegg will probably correct me but I could see an advantage to allowing your joist to extend into the wall cavaty after sitting on the let in ledger and nailing onto the top of the joist with your sill plate.  Be sort of like giant lower collar ties.