Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK

[ColchesterCabin]

Looks good i like the way to are getting the ridge beams up in place.... very creative. Just think a little down hill once they are set.... (kind of but not really)

[ajbremer]

Tuesday Afternoon - May 15th, 2012 - Mid-Oklahoma

Today I realized that it was very important for me to be sure that the weight of the middle ridge beam post was carried all the way down to the concrete of the angle-iron pier. It wasn't braced good enough for me because I could see daylight between the bottom of the floor and the joist closest to the post.

So what I did was I placed a piece of angle iron 90 degrees to the middle pier, pre-drilled it, and screwed it. Then I added a gusset to the right of it for extra support. Now I feel way better because all the weight of that middle pier is now taken right down to the ground.

Ok, in this first picture I just set the angle-iron into position before I used a board to jack it up with some pressure.
(Pic coming soon)


Then I jacked it all up with a board and drilled and screwed from there. In the last picture you'll see where I placed another piece of angle-iron to act as a gusset. Now I feel much better.
(Pic coming soon)


All done! Now I'll get the welder over here soon to weld these together as one.
(Pic coming soon)

[mgramann]

That pier isn't galvanized, is it?  It's hard to tell from the picture.

[ajbremer]

Hi mgramann

I believe that particular pier is galvanized. My welder has welded on my other angle-irons before. Some of my angle-iron is galvanized and some not.

[mgramann]

It's not so much the welder that will care, but please be sure you have significant air movement nearby, and a mask of some type.  When galvanized steel is heated up to welding temperature, it releases toxic fumes, which causes heavy metal poisoning.  Setup a fan close to your work to blow the fumes away from you.  You don't want to breathe in all that zinc/lead/other chemicals!

Edit-this is what can happen...http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tutor.php?lesson=safety3/demo

[Redoverfarm]

Not to mention but the weld is affected as well.  I have used a lot of galvanized pieces I accumulated (previous guardrail components) and most like to grind the galvanized surface to be welded first. 

[ajbremer]

Wednesday Morning - May 16th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Hey, thank you guys for the suggestions and comments about welding that galvanized angle iron of mine. I've been over this same 'toxic' issue before in much earlier posts when my welder friend came over and welded all of those angle iron braces to my galvanized angle iron piers. He did what appears to be a good job but he did it outside (of course) and in semi windy weather as I recall.

I'm not to worried about having to weld that gusset brace that I added under the middle post. I'm sure that the metal screws alone have a good enough combined shear strength to help withhold that middle ridge beam post.

Ok, I've got a little story to tell. As you've seen in recent posts, I have both ridge beams up on top. One is up and temporarily nailed to those risers that I made and the other one is on the loft floor. Well, just before I went to work yesterday and after I made that gusset middle post brace, I wrapped those straps around that ridge beam that I have laying on the loft floor so that it could be lifted up little by little.

Well, my neighbor does concrete work and construction and has a small crew. He's only been around here 4 or 5 times since I've been here. One time he came by with a nail gun and a large box of nails and told me I could borrow it for as long as I need it.

I tried the nail gun but found it too cumbersome and too fast. The nail gun didn't give me no time to think. I could just lay a bunch of stuff out and bang, bang, bang, bang, with the nail gun and it's done. Then I find out I laid it out wrong or something like that. Using a hammer gives me time to think about what I'm doing and if I'm doing it right. It's hard to explain totally, I just like using a hammer. I guess if I was a professional and house building for a living, AND knew what I was doing, then the nail gun would be used all the time.

Got off track there about the nail gun but getting back to my neighbor. Well, he came by after I went to work yesterday and looked at the build. He told my wife that he might be by in the morning to help lift those beams in place. I didn't think nothing of it. Well, I woke up at daybreak and as I was walking outside - here comes my neighbor with 2 of his helpers. We all got the first ridge beam up and in, they'll be over later this afternoon to get the other one in...YES!

I'm glad I put those straps around the beam on the loft floor at both ends and in the middle because when all those guys came over, they were kind of in a hurry to get off to the days work. I mentioned the straps and how I used them. Well, we all lifted that beam up on top of the other beam using those straps. SO, I'm glad I had those straps in the ready position when they came over. It all only took them about 1/2 an hour and then they were gone. I got a pretty good video of them lifting the first beam into position, I'll get it up on here as soon as I can.

One more thing, man, I'm glad I took Don_P's advice right away and got that 'X' bracing and other bracing up. It held really well with 3 men up there moving around and lifting the beam. Later this afternoon the other beam will go up...stay tuned!

[archimedes]

Thank goodness for neighbors.  I was worried about you and the Mrs. trying to lift that ridge beam into place.  Whew!

Great progress.   

[ajbremer]

Your right sir, thank you!

[ajbremer]

Wednesday Afternoon - May 16th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Ok, now that my ridge beam work is nearly complete I'll be ordering all of my rafters tomorrow and putting them up by this weekend.

I know I've said I was going with 2 x 12's for rafters but I'm sure I can get away with using the more common 2 x 8's. I realize that I'll have a much lower R factor but that's ok with me. Plus, I'll be able to handle them much easier on my own up there that high and they are twice as cheap too.

Now, I have an old 2x8x32 foot long board laying around that I could use as my first test rafter. I've measured and I'll be able to get away with using 16 footers, they'll  give me just about a foot of roof overhang. I have books showing me how I should do my birds mouth cut and also the 45 degree cut up there at the beam. The 45 degree cut at the top seems easy enough but I think I've seen a few different methods used for the birds mouth cut at the top of the walls.

If everything is perfect up there, then isn't it true that all rafters could be cut the same and they'll go anywhere and on either side? Also, I know I have to spring for those hangers at the top and bottom. Are they pretty standard, can I get them at Lowes? I'm going 24" o/c so that means 32 rafters and 64 hangers/clips. I priced a 2x8x16' board today and they cost $10.36 x 32 = $331.52. I'll also be putting up barge rafters at both ends so I guess I need to add 4 more of those boards and other boards to go crosswise at the ends.

I know we've gone over a lot of these issues in past posts but it's been awhile. I'll take the time soon to go back many posts and reread to see what I find. In the mean time, the biggest thing on my mind now is to get the rafters, hangers, and clips, and start to get'em up! Any help at all in that area will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you so much! I know I wouldn't be no where near where I am today in my build if it wasn't for this countryplan forum, I brag about it all the time to people but most just go about their build and do it the way they think is correct - without getting the opinions, facts, and calculations of others.

[JavaMan]

Best explanation I ever read about how to layout the rafter cuts, etc... was posted by John here:

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=8835.msg135294#msg135294

Helped me understand it tremendously

[Don_P]

In regular fiberglass you're limiting yourself to R-19... which is what my house started with. We went back over the inside with foam and osb then T&G.

You just asked a question that says we have a problem. The ridge height has been set, you shouldn't be able to change rafter depths at this point if a certain set of angles is desired. Let's see what you've got. You'll need; horizontal width of building at each gable end, outside of osb to outside of osb. Height at each end of top of top plate to top of ridge.

That center pier is taking serious load ~ 5/8 of the ridge load is carried by that pier, each end supports ~3/16 of the beam load. Here is the obsession, identify the weak link, calculate load, prove resistance. If you get it right, life is boring.

[ajbremer]

Thanks Don_P,

You said:

"You just asked a question that says we have a problem. The ridge height has been set, you shouldn't be able to change rafter depths at this point if a certain set of angles is desired."

That 'certain set of angles' is ok with me to change. If my roof is not exactly a 12:12 pitch but a little less because of going with 2x8's instead of 2x12's then that's ok with me.

I was going to put two 2x's on top of the ridge beam if using 2x12's because that angle cut would be 15-3/4" long. BUT, using 2x8's that angle cut at the ridge top will now be 10-1/16", full contact with each side of the ridge beam that is 11-7/8" wide, and that is without using those two 2x's. Yes, that roof angle would drop but very little bit. There's 5-1/16" difference in rafter drop because of using 2x8's. That means that the roof pitch is now at an angle of ~43.5 degrees instead of 45 degrees. (A 12:12 pitch is a 45 degree hypotenuse).

Also, as far as the middle ridge beam post holding 5/8's of the ridge load, that is all calculated. I had those calculations done with that iLevel software by the iLevel technician. He did the calcs based on using 2x12's for rafters. Going with the 2x8's will now make the roof lighter.

[ajbremer]

Friday Night - May 18th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Got both ridge beams up and into their yokes now. I have good videos and pics of the process but haven't had a good connection and time yet, I will post them soon.

Question about using hangers up their at the ridge with the 2x8 rafters. Can I use the straight 90 degree hangers even though the rafters are at such an angle? Those kind are less than a buck each but the real nice angled hangers are $8 to $9 each.

[Don_P]

I've used them at low slopes, but even there it is outside of it's intended use. The sloped hanger is correct but as you've found, quite expensive. A large framing angle is a compromise that I've used... after calculating load and determining its' adequacy.

Off the top I believe you were 20 psf LL + 10 psf DL, 30psf total. Each rafter spans 10' horizontally and is supported by a ridgeBEAM at one end and the wall at the other. The rafter connection at the ridge is supporting half of that 10', or 5' of the rafter span.  I think you are setting them on 2' centers...2x5= 10square feet x 30 lbs per square foot= 300 lbs. Assuming I just spouted the correct variables, you're looking for a connection capable of safely supporting 300 lbs.

This can be achieved several ways. I like to toenail them to set and then use 16 guage L90's on one side. The short leg with 16 sinkers (.148x3.25) into the LVL, the long leg onto the rafter with 10d joist hanger nails (they often have 8d and 10d hanger nails side by side in the bin, the larger diameter ones, there is a 10 embossed in the head.)
http://strongtie.com/products/connectors/L-LS-GA.asp.

That is alot of nails in the LVL's and it is easy to start bending them and get frustrated. I buy 1/8" bits by the 10 pack and if the wrists aren't winning you can predrill the holes into the lvl with them at no reduction in capacity. Smeared, bent over or damaged heads have no capacity, hangers must be installed in a workmanlike manner to develop rated capacity. That was a lecture, I see frustration in alot of hanger attachments. Cuts are nice and full bearing, wood is unsplit, attachments are picture worthy.

Al, I'm going to rant again on your thread, has nothing to do with you, I'm just ranting at the wind.
I went to visit a job I turned over yesterday. I had built the house, this was a smaller equipment barn. The guys went off the reservation planswise and aren't up to the structural changes they made. They were not straight with me on what they were doing. I'm there enjoying the hosptitality of my former clients looking at the new barn. When I was going down a couple of weeks ago it was this doc that I called on a Sunday afternoon, and he called it right, not to put too fine a point on it, he probably kept an old mule out of the glue factory. The PA that missed it, I think was pushing incompetent hard. I made real close to that comment to a couple of docs and sensed a biting of the tongue. I like these folks dearly, I was surrounded by 4 generations of the family and there I sat biting my tongue thinking "it'll probably be allright".

[ajbremer]

Saturday Night - May 19th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Videos of the beams going up:

First Beam with 3 neighbors lifting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-vk7dWF3I8

2nd Beam with me on the left and my neighbor on the right:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNsZQu14fcg

More videos and pictures to come. Thanks Don_P for last post, I need to study it more.

[ColchesterCabin]

great videos and the others you have on youtube also pretty informative. Nice music in the background as well, how did you pull that one off?

[ajbremer]

5-20-2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Ok, I put up my first rafter today...kinda.

I sure need help! I think I'm on the right track and may be very close to being ok with my cuts, the birdsmouth being the hardest.

I've read in the number one framing book mentioned here, that the depth of that birds mouth cut should be no more than 1/3rd of the rafter depth at the outside building line. Am I correct in thinking that the steeper the pitch of roof, the less that level birds mouth cut will be, the less surface area covered on the top of the wall plate?

With my pitch being very close to a 12:12 the birds mouth seat cut only is about 3-1/4", but that's ok isn't it?  Therefore I'm not totally seated on all of the top plate of the wall. If I'm correct in my thinking then I'm pretty close to having a rafter template. I 'experimented' on an extra rafter board.

I'm using a regular 2x8 hanger that I screwed in just temporarily to get my cuts right. I will be using those L-90 9" framing angles that Don_P mentioned...if I ever find a place that sells them. I also used a tie at the wall. I just have this first rafter up for a template.

Ok, here's pics...don't laugh, this is the first birds mouth cut of my life and I know I really butchered it but forgive me:

My angle up there at the ridge needs to be just a touch steeper. Is it ok to have the very top of the rafter flush with the top of the beam like that?


(Pic coming soon)


I really messed up that very first cut, please pay no attention to it. Also, is that the right way to install that metal tie? If it is, I would be surprised because I wasn't at all sure and didn't take the time to look. I did notice where it said 'Plate Line' on it.

[Don_P]

There must be at least 1-1/2" of bearing, so your 3-1/4" wide seat cut is fine from that end. If there is an overhang 2' or shorter (measured horizontally from the building line) then there must also be at least 3-1/2" left above the notch (you should be able to align a 2x4 along the rafter top edge and not touch the plate).

The rafter location on the ridge is perfect for a non ventilated roof. If you are using fiberglass and have soffit and ridge vents then raise the rafter up 1 to 1-1/2" to provide an air channel.

Go to the "installed gallery" on this page and click on #10, H5 installation for this uplift connection;
http://strongtie.com/products/connectors/H.asp

If the L90 hanger is unavailable(or doesn't fit, check your plumb cut length against the ridge) look to the capacity required, I came up with 300 lbs, double check me. In reality for your loads that joist hanger will work as will enough well applied toenails or blocking nailed alongside each rafter with the rafter nailed to the block. A well applied toenail using a 16d sinker has a lateral connection capacity of 75 lbs/nail. We like to see a steel gusset with documented capacity in a critical connection like this, and I use those L90's... but there are several ways to get there.

That well applied toenail enters at a 30 degree angle to the face of the rafter, 1/3 of the nail length back and causes no splitting. That is a bunch of perfect toes although typically I have shot 5 into the rafters to set them before applying the framing angle.

The lighter guage LS adjustable framing angles are more frequently stocked and are in the range as well. Knowing that failure most often occurs at the connections, I tend to beef them.

I actually prefer to see the tip open a tad just like your top plumb cut as opposed to too tight up there and gapped at the bottom. If the tip is doing the bearing it wants to split the rafter. If the heel bears is simply crushes till it gets to a bearing seat wide enough to support it. But don't go overboard  .

[Buckeye]

Al,
I'm not laughing at all! Thanks for sharing your challenges, as well as your triumphs.

[ColchesterCabin]

Al,
I'm not laughing at all! Thanks for sharing your challenges, as well as your triumphs.

To imply your not laughing has the opposite effect and I find that offensive as he and others have poured their hearts into their projects. I don't mind you posting but please keep the derogs out of it. IMO that is!

[Buckeye]

Sorry...Maybe that came out wrong. I have to cut some birdmouths in the near future and was simply thanking Al for sharing his experience. Often folks have a tendency to only post the finished examples of their work and leave out the challenges and/or mistakes that are usually very helpful. Al's post said not to laugh, and I was simply implying that I was not and appreciated his posting as I am learning alot from his build. My apologies if I offended anyone....

[Don_P]

None taken, and I'll admit to smiling at seeing a mistake I've made on well more than my first rafter.
Let's learn from it, Al correct me.
The rafter length given in the tables, and by doing the trig is for a line. We have to be careful in thinking about where that calculated line is. Line length is correctly measured from plumb to plumb. In this case if Al takes his level, places it on the outside face of the wall against the rafter and makes a vertical line that extends his plumb cut line along the birdsmouth up to the top edge... we now have a length that can be measured from the top of the plumb cut at the ridge to the plumb mark along the top edge of the rafter at the heel. What I think the first birdsmouth cut shows is a diagonal measure from the top plumb cut to the corner of the notch. This represents a different angle than the one calculated and the rafter is then short.

My correction is then the same as Al's. The test rafter is modified and retried, if it checks a pair is made and tried, moved to the other end and tried again, then we're off to the races. The oops can often be ripped down for a fly  .

I've not nailed to tyvek wrapped over the top plate and it shouldn't matter but does give me a little heartburn. I like to think the rafter can bite wood if it tries to slip, outside of logic if I'm counting on fasteners, but the tyvek is a high tech banana peel. If you want help up front, skip the outside rafter pair till we talk about lookouts and describe how you are doing them.

[ajbremer]

Monday Morning - May 21st, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Hey guys, thanks for the posts. I'm not offended by anyone, it's ok. I realize that Buckeye probably didn't read the previous post and he didn't know that I actually said "please don't laugh" in it...it's cool. Ya'll are very helpful and I appreciate each one of you.

Ya, I could hide mistakes here and make everybody think that I know what I'm doing - but I'm just the opposite. The few people who have come by and seen my build say, "wow, you built this yourself? Your a house builder!" I kind of want to say "I'm no more a house builder than you are." Then I try to tell them about how I have more time into studying, book reading, asking people questions, and being on this forum than all the time put together actually building the house. I've made a lot of mistakes and have had to make many corrections.

Bottom line is I would have a very long and hard struggle without the help of the kind few on this forum who try their best to show people the right way to do things. I kind of think that everybody here on this forum ought to have a donate button in their profile so that they can be compensated for their input, information, and kindness...just a thought.

[archimedes]

AJ,

Really enjoying watching your build.  Much appreciate your determination.  We all learn much from our mistakes and the mistakes of others.

Just wanting to let you know,  if it's not too late,  how I cut my rafters.

I just attached the un-cut rafter to the out side gable end framing at the correct angle and location,  then traced the birdsmouth and ridge beam lines onto the rafter.  Pull the rafter off and cut the traced lines.     A seasoned carpenter would probably roll his eyes at this method but it worked - and no math required.