Finally underway! My upstate NY 20 x 40 off-grid gets started

[MountainDon]

I do have some late thoughts on the PWF as used here. Being out of town and internet free (not free internet, but internet free as in None) I'm behind on a few things.

I spent some time reading the ANSI Permanent Wood Foundation Design Specification document. There is a statement in the document that permits "other additional methods" of restraining the movement of the lower sill when the foundation wall is backfilled. The "other additional methods" phrase could be interpreted to mean an engineered solution. Rods, pipes or whatever could be engineered to be used as "soil nails" to restrain the lower sill movement.

Engineered solutions are normally made for a certain narrow set of specifications. They are not usually permitted to be applied to projects other than the original. That is because of variables that have to be considered. The variables, such as soil composition, can vary widely from one location to another.

When the builder does an about face and says to leave the bracing in place unless a concrete or complete floor system is installed that causes me to wonder why the change? It would seem the soil anchors may be insufficient to prevent lateral movement. That is just a question or opinion of mine, not based on any engineering knowledge.

I wonder if the soil anchor solution might have been provided as an engineered solution at some point in the past for one of his other projects?    Perhaps the soil conditions are the same here, or perhaps not. I don't know. The caution to now leave the bracing just makes me wonder.

I believe that others should be wary of emulating this foundation; there are details used here that do not appear in any prescriptive "cookbook" that I have seen. The soil anchors are not prescriptive, but could be a suitable engineered solution. Only an engineer can say for certain.

That is my Opinion; meant to be taken as food for thought for anyone contemplating a PWF.



I have a question. Are the floor joists one piece? Or are they two pieces meeting over the center beam? Two piece joists would make that center beam and teleposts structural.

[AdironDoc]

I spent the day watching the builder and crew and found out what he and the building engineer had been up to. Turns out what I said earlier was not entirely accurate. I'm no builder and can easily misconstrue technical jargon and the like. As Mountain Don alluded to, soil anchors were used to prevent inward motion at the base. This practice is apparently common in this area and has been encouraged by the local engineer and building departments.

Second, the diagonals as shown are not mandatory, but are used during backfill. Per the engineer, they exceed standards and are encouraged to shore up the middle section of the wall against severe winter frost heave. "Take em out if you like, but up here, we like to leave em in unless they're really in your way.. we figure why go with minimum standards. If it were my place, they'd stay in". Gotcha.

Lastly, temporary bracing (telescoping supports) was, well, temporary. Once everything is done and the walls have settled in, they check that everything is still plumb. The temps are swapped with permanents, which due to their short length, are custom made by a nearby welder. So that's the story. Photos to follow.

[AdironDoc]

A few pics of the steel roof and yard cleared down to the creek.

Porch awaiting Adirondack style railing.


Poor man's water heater hanging in the new shower stall. Studded a small corner bathroom in the 16 x 24 guest cabin. Cut a hole under the shower base but haven't put the trap in yet. A coffee can top keeps the bugs from flying up through the drain 


Main cabin, site cleared to the creek bank. I will thin out the smaller hemlock so the creek is more visible. Grass seed went down last weekend.


Partition walls up.


Viewed from the creek, she's actually starting to look like a real cabin!

[pmichelsen]

I'm really digging the big covered porch, might have to incorporate something like that into my build. Looks like the project is moving right along, keep up the good work.

[AdironDoc]

I'm really digging the big covered porch, might have to incorporate something like that into my build. Looks like the project is moving right along, keep up the good work.

Thanks! You know, as time went by, I realized that the fine line between camping, and being at home, is the porch. So now I can retreat into the comfort of a living room and watch TV, be out back by the creek, or as I predict, spend most time in that heavenly zone in between.  A 10ft porch seems a must for any project!

[duncanshannon]

I'm deff. Leaning twoards the 1.5 story with a porch just like that! Looking great.  I'm thinking walkout basement too.  (I started at a 2 story).

[AdironDoc]

I'm deff. Leaning twoards the 1.5 story with a porch just like that! Looking great.  I'm thinking walkout basement too.  (I started at a 2 story).

Thanks! You know, I started inspired by a neighbor's cabin, 26 x 24, which was essentially a one room, 1.5 story which, due to ease of build, was very inexpensive ($15K) roughed in. My plan gradually grew as I realized mom, dad, kids, and others would be enjoying it too. The size grew, along with the size of the loft. Looking at the loft now, I wish I had more light coming in. Dog house dormers could solve that, but add considerably to the price, end up keeping large areas of snow and ice, and still can't beat simply raising the wall a bit into a two story. In my case, I may dormer the side above the porch later for a nice view of the creek.

Is your project on a lot that has a view? If so, would you consider dormering or lifting one side of the roof, saltbox style? The 1.5 lacks any views from upstairs. As for the porch, I can't think of a nicer and less expensive way to add living space while bringing the outdoors in. Sitting with a coffee watching the rain pour down. Now that's what I'm talking about!

Glenn

[nysono]

Glenn, looks like things are coming along well for you.  I too like the porch and will likely incorporate one someday myself, for the time being I will have to be satisfied with the deck over the walkout.

Steve

[nysono]

Glenn, what are you doing for siding?
Steve

[AdironDoc]

Glenn, what are you doing for siding?
Steve

Siding will be board and batten, rough cut, from the pine at the camp. I'll stain in semi-transparent in light/chestnut brown/golden brown. Something that goes well with the hunter green roof. I thought of live-edge siding but after it weathers a few years, it begins to look a bit "wild and wooly"! I like rustic, but I had second thoughts about just how rustic that meant exactly! 

[nysono]

Siding will be board and batten, rough cut, from the pine at the camp. I'll stain in semi-transparent in light/chestnut brown/golden brown. Something that goes well with the hunter green roof. I thought of live-edge siding but after it weathers a few years, it begins to look a bit "wild and wooly"! I like rustic, but I had second thoughts about just how rustic that meant exactly! 

I was going the same route but after some discussion with my stepbrother (who was been foreman on all of this) I have another idea.  I have to go look at a project he did a few years back to be sure.  He used 1 x 8 rough cut, left a 1 inch gap (or so) and used a chinking material that filled the gap.  Looked like log cabin style without the headaches of the logs.  I will get more info and try to post a pic.  Im also going with the hunter green roof/soffits

[dmanley]

The log cabin look is very popular around the East Tennessee area.  In fact, what a lot of people think are log cabins are nothing but stick built structures with the horizontal boards with chinking between them to look like logs.  The big give away is the corners of the building.  Vertical wooden corners with the 'logs' butting into them is how you know the difference.  It's a great look, as you say, without the headache of the logs.  Most builders don't even use chinking.  They simply paint between the boards with grey paint which has sand mixed in to give it a textured look.     

[sharbin]

Nice cabin indeed.

Question about the porch posts (i.e. the little trees )
Are they dried some how? was some process done to them to make them durable? or you just cut them and use them right away?

Sharbin

[AdironDoc]

I was going the same route but after some discussion with my stepbrother (who was been foreman on all of this) I have another idea.  I have to go look at a project he did a few years back to be sure.  He used 1 x 8 rough cut, left a 1 inch gap (or so) and used a chinking material that filled the gap.  Looked like log cabin style without the headaches of the logs.  I will get more info and try to post a pic.  Im also going with the hunter green roof/soffits

I'd never thought to do that but it sounds like a great idea. Do the gaps between the boards tend to catch a lot of moisture or ice? I suppose the chinking is what really gives it the log look. Would love to see it. btw, I was reading a travel guide that says Lewis county, NY is one of 2 counties the state has declared rural and that there are more cows than people. Also you produce the lions share of NY's maple syrup. I've only found one company online that sells maple taps. Thinking to tap some trees at your camp?


Sharbin, the log posts used for the porch and elsewhere are kiln dried at the mill that hand peeled them. They will still be sprayed with preservative. I suspect that 3 months in the kiln may not have completely dried them and I will see a bit more checking by the end of the year.

[nysono]

I'd never thought to do that but it sounds like a great idea. Do the gaps between the boards tend to catch a lot of moisture or ice? I suppose the chinking is what really gives it the log look. Would love to see it. btw, I was reading a travel guide that says Lewis county, NY is one of 2 counties the state has declared rural and that there are more cows than people. Also you produce the lions share of NY's maple syrup. I've only found one company online that sells maple taps. Thinking to tap some trees at your camp?


I will try to get a picture this week if I can.  I need to look it over too.  I understand the chinking is painted with a sealer/solidifier after install and all is sealed and stays that way.  Yes, lots of syrup, friend of mine made over 1600gallons this past spring, one of the best on record.  I might tap a few trees, the old fashioned way, (tap and bucket), and boil down on the wood stove just to say we made our own.

[AdironDoc]

Well, as the summer winds to a close, so does my budget. In the next two weeks, the work I paid for will be complete. Roughed in, essentially. Kids, mom/dad and I were up over the last week. I was happy with several changes I had asked for. First, instead of a single window in the front left, where sofa will be, I opted to swap the 5ft, with two 4 footers, allowing more light, and balancing the look from the outside. Also the sofa will fall in the middle of two windows for a better feel.

Wall to the right is against the creek and will have a dining table. It's directly across from living room and sofa.
Front wall to the left of the entrance will have sofa and end tables. The two windows more appropriately match the rear two windows.


Second change, upped the 6ft porch, to 10ft deep. This totally changed the looks and functionality of the back.

Another change was that I opted to use the smooth side of the boards for board and batten siding. Originally I had wanted the rough cut side, but after seeing how it took up 3 times the stain and ended up very dark, I saw no grain or knots. Instead of being more rugged and dramatic, the wood ended up looking more uniform from a distance. Builder suggested I look at how the smooth side took up stain and it ended up showing much more of the wood's character. This is a sample he put up for me. It will darken slightly over time.



Last thing I'm wrestling with is that my kitchen ends up being very small. No problem in general, but where to put the refrigerator? I will take space from the wall directly across from the kitchen, and box in the fridge. This means giving up a bit of space in the bathroom. Out with the tub, in with a shower.

Kitchen wall:

Will box the ref in this wall:


Well, aside from the welded support columns, nothing much has changed. This week, log stairs outside, 6 x 8 porch over front entrance, inside stairs, trapezoid windows in living room, siding up, and basement windows in. Last but not least, railing on porches.

[nysono]

I do like the look of the board and bat. Stain makes the difference in setting of the knots and such.  Ill probably end up going that way too (that was my first plan anyway).  Are you installing a wood stove?  Triple wall is outrageously expensive at roughly $ 100/ft...

[AdironDoc]

The builder told me the oil based (linseed or was it mineral oil?..hmm) stain he recommended was one of the best but pricey. My question was regarding the other sides of the boards. If it's possible, I'd rather seal them with something cheaper, since they're not visible anyway. He said its unusual to spray the backs with something different than the fronts but that he would give a few of his painter friends a call and ask the cheapest way to go. As the rough cut backs grab up to 4 times the stain as the front, that adds up. I wonder if I can have him spray the backs with poly, and put the stain/sealer on the fronts.

I ordered a wood stove last fall and ended up getting a unit with a smashed window. After 6 months of trying to get them to take it back, they sent me a new one without taking the old one back. They told me to junk it. Then, to my surprise, I got another unit from a different distributor. They asked for two back but shipping never showed up. Nobody would take my follow up calls. No RMA was given. It's been a year now and it seems I have three stoves. I'll put the stove in the middle of the wall by the cathedral ceiling. I'm undecided on whether to use a interior stovepipe rise up the 26ft to the top or punch through 8ft up. How do you know when to use single, double or triple wall pipe?

[frankbjorn]

Is the builder going to use tar paper under the siding or will he be using Tyvek.  Just read that the majority of builders prefer tar paper as it breathes better than Tavek.

[rick91351]

Doc here is an article from Lehmans on proper wood burning chimney installation.

http://www.lehmans.com/store/article/1308?Args=#

[AdironDoc]

Is the builder going to use tar paper under the siding or will he be using Tyvek.  Just read that the majority of builders prefer tar paper as it breathes better than Tavek.

I don't know if he will use Tyvek or 15# Tar Felt, but the first article below considers them both to be non-permeable. The results of their study show that neither will leak when subjected to wind driven rains, or water logged non-treated siding. The results showed that Tyvek, didn't leak per-se, but led to dampness on the undersurface. When a nail was put through the siding and into the framing as in actual construction, all wraps leaked within two hours. Moral of that story was always back and end-prime boards to prevent any leakage through nail perforations. I've let my builder know to do exactly that.
http://bct.eco.umass.edu/publications/by-title/leaky-housewraps/

This article notes, as you alluded to, that Tyvek had absolutely no water penetration when wind driven rain was simulated. Tar paper (15 pound asphalt felt) passed 30% of its water sample through over 2 hours.
http://bct.eco.umass.edu/publications/by-title/housewraps-felt-paper-and-weather-penetration-barriers/

If the ultimate goal is to keep water outside the framing, it would seem to me that a totally impenetrable water barrier would be best? Tar paper, though able to breathe a bit, would pass water driven into the space behind the siding through tiny channels and wind into the plywood and framing. I'm not sure how this is a plus.

Rick: Thanks for the Lehmans website. I'll likely come up 5 or 6 ft and pass-through the wall as is shown in diagram #2. Oddly, the diagram indicates all diagram parts as "finishing collar". Amazing Lehman's didn't notice that. Anyway, still informative and a great reminder to start planning the proper parts.

[nysono]

The builder told me the oil based (linseed or was it mineral oil?..hmm) stain he recommended was one of the best but pricey. My question was regarding the other sides of the boards. If it's possible, I'd rather seal them with something cheaper, since they're not visible anyway. He said its unusual to spray the backs with something different than the fronts but that he would give a few of his painter friends a call and ask the cheapest way to go. As the rough cut backs grab up to 4 times the stain as the front, that adds up. I wonder if I can have him spray the backs with poly, and put the stain/sealer on the fronts.

I ordered a wood stove last fall and ended up getting a unit with a smashed window. After 6 months of trying to get them to take it back, they sent me a new one without taking the old one back. They told me to junk it. Then, to my surprise, I got another unit from a different distributor. They asked for two back but shipping never showed up. Nobody would take my follow up calls. No RMA was given. It's been a year now and it seems I have three stoves. I'll put the stove in the middle of the wall by the cathedral ceiling. I'm undecided on whether to use a interior stovepipe rise up the 26ft to the top or punch through 8ft up. How do you know when to use single, double or triple wall pipe?

Maybe just linseed oil on the backs, let it soak in good?  Im punching through the wall on the gable end just above my top plate.  Single wall up to there then triple wall through and all the outside...about 15 feet...

[Don_P]

Two schools of thought on housewraps, tyvek, etc do a better job with air infiltration but not as good a job at allowing a building to dry back out. Tarpaper can absorb a bit of water and release it when drying conditions improve. This was Dr Fisette's point at the end of the article. I've argued both sides of this, and use whichever one the homeowners prefer.

The oil is probably boiled linseed and should work on the backside. I'm a bit leery of raw linseed oil in a high humidity climate.

[Alan Gage]

I'm interested what you hear back from him on what to use for back priming. My cedar siding showed up this week and I need to start back priming and am wondering what I can get away with. Not exactly sure how I'm going to finish the face yet (just a sealer or tinted stain). I'll wait until the roof and trim are up so I can hopefully visualize it better.

Alan

[Don_P]

Basically you are trying to seal the raw wood with something to lessen the swings in moisture content in the wood. If you are painting then prime the entire stick, nail it up and paint the face. If you are staining I find it easier to slop or prefferrably dip the entire stick in the stain but if you are careful you can do the back in something different. Tints last longer than clear finishes, they help block uv which breaks the finish down.