Where do you stand?

[Redoverfarm]

Irregardless of your religious belief I think there is a lot of truth to what Ben Stein from CBS has said.

I apoligize for the length but it is worth reading.



The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary.

My confession:

I am a Jew, and every single one o f my ancestors was Jewish.  And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees, Christmas trees..  I don't feel threatened..  I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are:  Christmas trees.

It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me.  I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto..  In fact, I kind of like it  It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu   If people want a crïeche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.

I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians.  I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around , period.   I have no idea where the concept came from that  America is an explicitly atheist country.  I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him?  I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too.   But there are a lot of us who are wondering where these celebrities came from and where the  America we knew went to.

In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different:  This is not intended to be a joke;  it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her 'How could God let something like this happen?' (regarding Katrina) Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response.  She said, 'I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.  And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out.  How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?'

In light of recent events... terrorists attack, school shootings, etc.  I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found a few years ago) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.  Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school.  The Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself.  And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr Spock's son committed suicide).  We said an expert should know what he's talking about.  And we said OK.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out.  I think it has a great deal to do with 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.'

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell  Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.  Funny how you can send 'jokes ' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.  Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Are you laughing yet?

[StinkerBell]

Amen.

[NM_Shooter]

Thanks for posting that Red! 

-f-

[Sonoran]

This is a good story.

I try to think of the scriptures as more than what most people would call them, "just a book of old stories" and try to think of them as a very insightful guide to life. 

I wonder what the scriputres would say if they were written about people in our time"

"And behold, it had been two-thousand years since the birth of their Lord, and the people did cast him out of their hearts.  They became a pridesome people, for they worshipped the makings of their own hands more than they did their Lord.  And behold, their lives became exceedingly sore and they did contend much one with another.  And behold, they did not prosper in the land for the space of many years."

[MountainDon]

I agree with some of his points. About him being a Jew and not minding Christmas trees. Being tolerant of other religions and not having to give up saying Merry Christmas id one is a Christian.

I don't agree that Godlessness in schools contributed to the Katrina disaster. I don't think God spends much time managing the weather because of something we did or did not do. He didn't have much lasting success with that way back. Earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, lightning strikes that cause fires are all natural events. Crap happens.

At the same time I believe there is a God. I just don't think he micromanages things like weather related events. I believe that if one believes in their God, he will assist in ways, but we have to make good choices in order to receive the blessings. All the while, keep an eye cocked to the weather and don't build in low lying coastal areas, or on fault lines, or in river flood plains. Give your kids a spanking when they're small and deserve it; don't beat them though. Teach your kids the 10 commandments. Believe and live the 10 commandments.

This is simply my view; and sometimes confusing to me.

I hope that makes sense.

[wildbil]

The bible gives a great guide on how to live a good happy life. Things go wrong when people start to ignore it or they warp it for personal gain.

Examples:

-Don't kill
-Don't steal
-Don't cheat

Its not asking alot, but it seems so hard for some people.

Seems to me, most of the God believing folks I know are tolerant and not too pushy with their faith. All of the atheists I know are determined to convince everyone there is no God.

[rwanders]

What MountainDon said!!!

[Sonoran]

I don't agree that Godlessness in schools contributed to the Katrina disaster. I don't think God spends much time managing the weather because of something we did or did not do. He didn't have much lasting success with that way back. Earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, lightning strikes that cause fires are all natural events. Crap happens.

I agree with you. I think sometimes people only feel like God is on their side if nothing bad happens to them and they get everything they want.

I try to remember that a heaven wouldn't have any significance without a life on earth.  Can't know what hot is unless you have felt the cold.

[John Raabe]

Well said. 

[peternap]

Boy John.....Couldn't you have picked a deeper subject?

I agree with most of what he said, don't know about other things, and might agree with Don except I'm not smart enough to be sure.

I was raised as a Christian in very rural areas. First a Lutheran, then a Methodist then Episcopalian...which I still am. In the hills as you well know, people are a lot more tolerant than elsewhere. I had a Jewish family live near me and I didn't understand there was supposed to be a difference until I was in my mid teens. To this day, we are still good friends.

There is so much about the bible that has been selected, misinterpreted and just ignored. I supposedly should hate Muslims because they are heathens. I missed that somehow because in the Koran, there is God....our God, just as the Jews worship the same God. Even among Christians, we can't decide if Jesus was a man or God himself.

There are a lot of Jews I dislike...gee....there are a lot of Christians I dislike too. I like to look at the person, not the religion.

I agree with  Wildbil...If we all lived by TEN simple rules as they were intended, we could toss the rest of the Civil and Criminal code in the trash.

Now Don said:
I don't agree that Godlessness in schools contributed to the Katrina disaster. I don't think God spends much time managing the weather because of something we did or did not do. He didn't have much lasting success with that way back. Earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, lightning strikes that cause fires are all natural events. Crap happens.


I just don't know. I expect he is right but I wouldn't discredit some Divine slight of hand either.

What I can tell you is that I have always known I was being cared for in some way. No matter how bad things got or how dismal my prospects were, I knew I would be OK and before the roof fell, something would always happen, sometimes a series of things that were so unlikely to occur, it was nearly impossible....and I would be OK. That's financial, emotional, physical...every part of my life has been guided in one way or another.

It would take a full page to list the times I should have been dead or close to it, but was pulled out by some fluke. It would take a lot more pages to list the times I should have gone broke or didn't know where the family's next meal would come from......

So who knows? Katrina, etc could be by design.

I'll let greater minds work on that. Simple faith, a sharp knife and  common sense, has always worked for me.

[StinkerBell]

I don't agree that Godlessness in schools contributed to the Katrina disaster. I don't think God spends much time managing the weather because of something we did or did not do. He didn't have much lasting success with that way back. Earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, lightning strikes that cause fires are all natural events. Crap happens.

I think that maybe you misunderstand or maybe I did. The Godlessness in school is two fold in his meaning. One is that We have indeed asked or have told God he can not be in School, and maybe that is why we have things like Columbine and other school shootings  and why it is easy for kids to kill each other without it bothering their conscience. We have taken God out and with Him some  key commandments, and what is the core to what a decent society is. If you take out Thou shall not Murder, Thou shall not steal, what is really left morally speaking to teach in school? Schools go on how they need to teach morals, so where do they come up with what morals are? The point is when you ask God to go away and he does why are you surprised? So I do not think He was saying that because we Kicked God out of schools He sent Katrina. However what exactly is HELL? It is place without God. Something to ponder.

Now with that said, was Katrina a punishment from God? I do not think it was. Why do we continue to build in areas that we know nature makes strikes at? You have those who will continue to rebuild on a hillside in California that ever few years slides. We can not even somehow collect the power of a lightening strike, yet we build below sea level at the sea coast where we know Hurricanes have hit and will continue to hit in the future.


Hey, what do I know? I could be all wrong, some what correct, mostly correct but rarely 100% correct.

[Redoverfarm]

But if you read the bible and take it to heart there are many incidents where the wrath of God included disasters.  But then again you have to believe the bible was the written record.  If not then I guess you can draw your own conclusions. 

Our founding fathers had alot more spititual belief than the present.  Thus so that they seen fit to include "In God we Trust".

[StinkerBell]

But if you read the bible and take it to heart there are many incidents where the wrath of God included disasters. 

There is always a fore warning to allow for repentance.

[NM_Shooter]

Where's my popcorn?

I don't think the above quote implied that God managed the weather to smite New Orleans, although from what I remember of Bourbon St, he would be more than justified  .  Bad things happen all the time to good people, and yet God does not intervene.  I think that the above quote was pointing out...."why would God intervene to stop this from happening?"  (You know, sort of a situation of omission)

My personal belief is that God does not take requests, except in very, very rare cases.  I try not to pray and ask for things.  I try and just be thankful when I pray.  I'm not always strong in that practice though.

I think that there are a whole lot of Christians in the world who are in much, much worse lives than I am.  I bet that many of them are praying  and living very Christian lives, and yet their conditions of existence are miserable.  Why would God allow such a thing to happen? 

I suspect that those in need are placed as a challenge to those of us who have some surplus.  I think that our reward will be based on how we respond.  With regards to the "widow's mites" I could be doing better in that aspect. 

Scripture continually points out how those who are miserable / poor / downtrodden / etc. will be given a more prominent position in heaven... "last will be first".  It's easy to be happy and holy when you have a comfortable income.  Maybe God prepares additional blessings for those who are challenged now and still live their faith.  Maybe we'll know sometime.  Part of me wants to know, part of me is worried I won't make the cut. 

I do agree with the above quote implying that we are hypocrites.   We live hedonistic lives, and then wonder why God does not bail us out.  It shows in the way that we raise our kids too. 

-f-

[StinkerBell]

Scripture continually points out how those who are miserable / poor / downtrodden / etc. will be given a more prominent position in heaven... "last will be first".  It's easy to be happy and holy when you have a comfortable income.  Maybe God prepares additional blessings for those who are challenged now and still live their faith.  Maybe we'll know sometime.  Part of me wants to know, part of me is worried I won't make the cut. 
-f-

Interesting, I have always understood that scripture to be about those who have received Him or the gift of salvation last will be first. Not about what Christian is given more comfort and or blessings here on earth versus their counterpart. Thats if that is what you meant.

[Ernest T. Bass]

I don't agree that Godlessness in schools contributed to the Katrina disaster. I don't think God spends much time managing the weather because of something we did or did not do. He didn't have much lasting success with that way back. Earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, lightning strikes that cause fires are all natural events. Crap happens.

I agree with you. I think sometimes people only feel like God is on their side if nothing bad happens to them and they get everything they want.

I try to remember that a heaven wouldn't have any significance without a life on earth.  Can't know what hot is unless you have felt the cold.

Conversely, I believe life on earth is just a big test to show how much you love God and want heaven. Biggest difference between here and paradise is pain and suffering. When something "bad" happens to us, (since everything that God wills is good, even if we don't perceive it), how are we going to react? Are we going to curse God for "hurting" us, or are we going to love Him all the same and accept whatever comes from His loving hand? I believe God has complete control over every physical occurrence, and that everything works together for His plan of salvation. The only thing He does not control is the intention with which we carry out our physical actions. Our "free will" is ours. If a guy punches you on the street, as far as we are concerned the punch came from God's hand and was meant to hit you right where it did. On judgment day, you will be accountable for how you reacted to the punch, and the attacker will be judged by the motive with which he punched you. Of course, there are a million variables as to why one person might be more accountable for sinful actions than the next, but that's not for us to judge.

So basically, holy people are just as susceptible to natural disasters as unholy, maybe even more so. More good comes from sending "evil" to an upright person who will respond with acceptance and offer it back to God for his salvation, than from having an evil person just perpetuate a sin that was committed against them and seek revenge. They would keep passing sin around, while we could be a "ground rod" for God, so to speak.

Anyway, that's the way I've been taught to see it... take it for what it is.

[Sassy]

I believe God created us to have fellowship with him...  but free will is necessary or we are just robots...  if you believe what the Bible says - Adam & Eve thought maybe God was holding out on them when He told them they couldn't eat from the tree of good & evil & went ahead & ate of the fruit & thus knew both good & evil...  their relationship was broken with God, who is perfect & just.   But even in the beginning, God planned a way for that relationship to be restored - since we, as human beings, can't seem to live perfect lives, He gave his Son to take the penalty for our own rebelliousness - but we have the free will to accept that also.

We live in a world that has evil in it so therefore we will all be affected by evil in some way, even when it isn't our fault.  Someone is killed by a drunk driver, homes are destroyed by floods, a loved one suffers from a horrible disease, leaders bankrupt our country & instigate unending wars - I think God allows certain things to happen at times to help us learn lessons in life - the Bible says that "we will have troubles in this world" & "the testing of our faith makes us perfect" .

There are natural laws that God has put into place - the "reap what you sow" someone mentioned earlier.  And as others stated - if we build in a flood plane or on a cliff or use improper building techniques, hey, is that God's fault?  I also think that He reaches into time & space in miraculous ways sometimes to touch us in special ways but that isn't the norm... 

When everything is based on "situational ethics" which are taught in school - what's the bottom line?  What is TRUTH?  Pontious Pilate asked that of Jesus Christ.  That's what each person has to find for themselves.  I DO believe there is TRUTH.  The Bible even says that "the TRUTH will set you free."  So just like the song Bob Dylan wrote several years ago  "You've got to serve somebody - it may be the devil or it may be the Lord but you've gotta serve somebody"

BTW, I like Ben Stein - did anyone see the movie "No intelligence allowed"?  About intelligent design vs evolution?  He brought up a lot of very good questions...

[John Raabe]

I generally try to stay out of conversations like this. It is soo... easy to take religious thought and beliefs too seriously. Then, pretty soon, heads are flying off and wars are raging over one or another faction of a long dead feud. If there is a God worthy of the name, this is not what He wants done in His name, I'm pretty sure of that.

Here is an interesting blog that has an actionable idea or two that might shed some light here:

http://www.cabinetforum.org/index.php/blog/41/

"I have this crazy theory that when we die, heaven looks like YouTube."

[glenn kangiser]

We have a lot of level headed people here and hopefully they are able to converse about this in a calm and peaceful way, wishing the best for all good people around the world, Insha'Allah.

Allahu Akbar.    Peace and respect for life of others to all....

[StinkerBell]

 I

also think that He reaches into time & space in miraculous ways sometimes to touch us in special ways but that isn't the norm... 

Interesting, Sassy. I have always consider God outside of Time itself.

[Sassy]

Well, I guess the most significant event that broke through time & space would be the coming of the Messiah!   

[Sonoran]

I don't think this conversation is getting out of hand.  And I think that it is good if people take their religion seriously...but being serious does not have to include going to war with someone because they do not agree with you.

I do not think God would want that either.  But I do think that he would want people to keep him in their minds, think about him, discuss his teachings, and his existence in their lives.

[Jens]

You guys are all so rad!  Although my house is cold, my heart is warm after reading all of this.  Don't take what I say here as pushy, I just don't know any better way to say the facts as I see them, than the same way I would that 10x10=100.

      Of course God isn't within time, he is time.  He is all things, and none at the same time.  He shepherds us as any caring father would, and in so doing allows us to turn from him without ever losing his love.  The strongest of foundations, are those that have fallen, and been rebuilt, because we are afraid that they will fall again, so we put extra rebar in.  We are meant to question, and to ponder, for it is written, "seek, and you shall find".  There are only two commands given, which must be followed, because all others are dependent upon them, "love the Lord your God with all your heart, and all your soul, and all your strength", and the other, "love your brother as yourself". 
      My biggest challenge in raising my children, is teaching them the value of mercy, and compassion.  That those are the real riches of life, are things that many forget.  Of course it pains God when we suffer, but I do believe that society pushes him away too much.  With that said, we can never get him further than arms reach away.  Take Jonah, who tried to run from the Lord, or Jacob, who wrestled on the shores of the river Jabbok.  Or Peter, who denied Jesus three times, and became the rock upon which the church was built.  God never leaves us, but we blind ourselves to his face.  We harden ourselves to his touch, until doubt becomes the seed of suffering, oppression, greed, and ultimately doom. 
    To live in the Kingdom here, that is the gift and freedom Jesus spoke of.  The point at which heaven and Earth collide, that is the goal in this life, and it happens all the time.  Whenever your smile transforms the frown of a stranger, miracle; a soft touch, word, or prayer, that restores hope to the heart of the hopeless, miracle; a baby's first cry, and breath, miracle; a person who's heart is torn, restored by love, miracle; talking about God on a building forum, around the water cooler, to a complete stranger, or someone who struggles from great loss, miracle; he is with us always, and we with him, even if we don't acknowledge it.  We are granted everything we ask for, that is good, and necessary.  Many times, we think that because we aren't given that present we really wanted, or we don't win the lottery, or our child's cut isn't healed with a kiss and a prayer, that our prayers aren't heard or answered.  But just as we laugh when our children ask us if they can just have marshmallows for every meal, so does our Father laugh when we expect only yummy things from life.  Even death, though sad for those who remain, is not a bad thing.  "blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted". 
     "blessed are the poor, for theirs is the Kingdom of God," and "it is easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of heaven," are not warnings against money, or praise to those who don't have it (or a knock to those who do), but instead drive at the core of the Kingdom, that interdependence of people, and love of God, are crucial to the very fiber of existence.  With enough money, you don't need help, without help from other people, you lose sight of the one in whose image we are made.  The reward of living life the way God intended, is the very thing that was taken from Adam and Eve, the tree of life.  If we give up the knowledge of good and evil, and simply do as God suggests (not our free will, we always have that), we enter the Kingdom, here.  We find heaven, here.  We are returned to the garden, here.  And we find peace and harmony, here.  Then, when our bodies return to dust, our spirit passes not to another place, but remains within the Kingdom.  Live every day like Sunday. 
      Rejoice and give thanks for every day, as if it is Thanksgiving, Christmas, or Easter.  You are all so precious, to God, and to me.  No words can truly describe the glow I get when reading discussions like this.  I am a great big windbag, who types fairly well.  Thank you for putting up with me all these years.

[glenn kangiser]

As with the rest of our members on this forum - as mentioned in the article John posted, Jens, it is good when we get together and share, give and help one another without expectation of repayment.  It all comes back if you do good.... or bad....

I'm sure God smiles with the good and frowns on the bad...

[wildbil]

Love your enemies-one of the most powerful tools that any man can possess. You can stop wars, change the direction of anothers life, change the culture of a nation. Its a hard concept for humans who have been told that their race needs to compete for resources their entire life. We need to debug our minds and realize our lives would be better with less things, more respect, forgiveness, understanding, and friends. Notice I left out knowledge. A good education can provide lessons on good and healthy living, and sometimes better and safer ways of doing things. Too much knowledge can create doubt, fear, and the eventual thought that man is more advance than to believe in God.