slate over linoleum--can the linoleum stay?

[MikeT]

This is a home improvement question, not a new construction question.  We want to use slate in our kitchen and currently have linoleum that is probably 12 years old (predates our owning the home).  Do I need to pull out the old linoleum (and presumably make sure the subfloor is smooth) before putting down the backerboard or can I screw on the backerboard on top of the linoleum?  Just trying to eliminate a step if I can.....

mt

[Redoverfarm]

Mike from what I have read and talked to others the main reason for the backerboard is to prevent movement.  It also adds some rigidity to the floor for tile.  Most manufacturers suggest that the backerboard is mortared in place (also contributes to eliminating movement) and the seams taped.  I am not sure what kind of an end product you would end up with over lineolum.  But if you are going to the expense of this project I wouldn't take shortcuts. 

Here is a link to get the straight scoup:

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/index.php

[glenn kangiser]

I had a tile installer recommend installing a vinyl slip sheet over a t&g floor to prevent the ceramic tile grout from getting torn up as the wood moves, so I don't see a problem especially if using backer board.  With a sound floor underneath I doubt you need the backer board but no guarantees.

[Willy]

I had a tile installer recommend installing a vinyl slip sheet over a t&g floor to prevent the ceramic tile grout from getting torn up as the wood moves, so I don't see a problem especially if using backer board.  With a sound floor underneath I doubt you need the backer board but no guarantees.

I cheated when I put down my 12X12 ceramic tile around and under my wood stove. I used liquid nails and glued them down spaced apart for grout. They have been there for 12 years now with out a problem and I have dropped fire wood on them many times! I have seen tiles cemented in the right way come loose or crack easy but I think the liquid nails held them good because of the glue and this was right on the plywood. May have been the wrong way but I have since set lots of tile this way and there still holding fine. You can't tell once the grout is in the gaps and looks the same. Mark

[PEG688]

You should remove the old , you might get away with it , you might not if you do not remove it. Lots of $$ down the drain to save a few hours of labor.

Another consideration is IF you leave the old and add all the new stuff will the dishwasher , IF you have a appliance  type dishwasher ,,,,  not a wife  ,( preemptive strike eh Glenn)  and or under counter trash compactor , they may not fit back under with the added materials. 

[glenn kangiser]

Nailed me, PEG.

[MikeT]

Thanks for those responses.  I will have to make a determination about clearance, Clarence.  Then I will figure out which way is best for this project.  It is nice to have options.  If we do not have enough clearance for the dishwasher in our main house, then my question about type of flooring for the kitchen in the beach house project is answered!

mt

[Okie_Bob]

Seeing as how I'm in the middle of doing some tile work I was fasinated with Willy's method of laying tile. What is wrong with doing it
his way as opposed to thin-set morter? Liquid nails is so much easier to work with, at least for a novice like myself. Especially when compared with this new fangled latex modified thin set recommened today. What a pain that stuff is. After laying one bathroom floor usingthe latex modified stuff, I have decided it just isn't worth it. I'm going back to plain old hand mixed morter. I've seen a lot of tile last many years with the old stuff and don't see any reason to change.
But, if Willy's method works, I'd much prefer doing it that way.
What are the pros and cons of liquid nails for laying ceramic tile?
Okie Bob

[jb52761]

Nothing against Liquid nails....I still use it here and there....but about a year ago I also started using the stuff called Power Grab. I attatched a furring strip with it to a concrete wall, had to use a claw side of a hammer to get it off later when it wasn't need there anymore. I also used it on a large solid wood cabinet door that split from its hinges.....still hangin'.....

[r8ingbull]

Especially when compared with this new fangled latex modified thin set recommened today. What a pain that stuff is. After laying one bathroom floor usingthe latex modified stuff, I have decided it just isn't worth it. I'm going back to plain old hand mixed morter. I've seen a lot of tile last many years with the old stuff and don't see any reason to change.
What are the pros and cons of liquid nails for laying ceramic tile?
Okie Bob

The very first thing to do is study your subfloor and supporting framing.  the website listed above has a "deflectolator" for calculating floor deflection.  If your floor moves beyond a certain point the tile will crack/pop up for sure.  Stone has 1/2 the acceptable range of ceramic tile.  You need to calculate the sag across the joist and the subfloor between the joist.  Stone is 1/720, ceramic is 1/360.

The recommended "modified mortar" really isn't needed unless you are trying to solve a specific problem, such as movement or tiling a ceiling, etc.  I think it's only recommended because it cost more and more expensive is always better right???  Broken, cracked and loose tiles is all about movement.  As long as the tile doesn't move it will be fine.  The tile needs to be bedded into something.  It needs to be 100% supported and rigid.  You can even set tile on a perfectly prepared bed of sand if you wanted to.  The backer board and thin-set just make it easier to get that perfect surface to tile.

As far as LN compared to mortar, the mortar is 10% the price, it is easier to clean up, spreads better, etc.  Also liquid nails will take a longer time to dry out under a tile, as long as it remains soft and flexible you will get movement (broken tiles and grout).

The reason to use backerboard is actually kind of counterintuitive.  The backer board (properly taped) and tile make a monolith that can move unattached to the supporting structure underneath.  As the wood in your house moves the tile can move at it's own rate.  The backer board also gives you a nice surface to tile.

[n74tg]

We put about 250 sf of the cheapest ceramic tile we could find (.79 per sf, from Lowes) down in girlfriend's kitchen and laundry room about nine month ago.  I asked the same question about putting it down over linoleum, and the Lowe's Tile Installation Book (yes, we bought a book about it) said, if the linoleum is well stuck down, go ahead and lay tile over it.  We used the cheapest mortar we could find (non polymer modified, just plain floor tile mortar, about $5 per 25 pound bag) and it worked great. 

We have dropped two heavy dishes on it; the tile survived great, can't say the same for the dishes. 

Under the linoleum was a concrete slab, so take that into consideration in your decision.

One interesting point came up.  I had run out of mortar with only ONE full size tile left to install.  I called a friend who owns a flooring store to ask if I could use something else (like maybe regular brick mortar).  He berated me heavily about all my choices (cheap tile, leave linoleum down, cheap mortar, etc, etc).  Well, in May of this year, it will have been down a year.  No grout has cracked, no tile has cracked, nothing has discolored.  We have been VERY happy with results of this project, so happy in fact that I will install the exact same tile in the home I am building for myself (see blog address below).  Thirty or so cases of the stuff sit in my garage as we speak. 

So, you don't HAVE to use the BEST of everything to have a floor you can be proud of and one that will last.  Of course, I am assuming that because it's lasted nine months that it will continue to last.

Now, in contrast, my neighbor hired what she thought (and was told) was a pretty good contractor (great references she said) to do some remodeling in her house; new "expensive" porcelain tile floor in kitchen, completely remodeled bath with hand tiled shower.  I haven't asked how much she spent, but I'll bet it was a fortune.  Well, long story short, she wasn't happy with the way anything turned out.  The flooring store where she bought all this expensive stuff had to send someone out to treat the tile with muriatic acid to pretty it back up.  The plumber plumbed the new shower faucet backwards (hot on right, cold on left -- he fixed it by going down in crawl space and replumbing the supply pipes).  The electrician left plugs disconnected and had to come back.  I talked to the contractor, nice kid, but needs more experience and he said the job had become "the job from hell."  So, what's my point in all this.  Hiring a pro and using the best materials, while usually costing you more, doesn't always yield a floor you will be proud of.   

[Okie_Bob]

Excellent points r8ingbull and thanks for them. Hadn't thought about the time to cure for LN or the cost either. I happen to have several large contractor size tubes I was thinking of using.
My house is on pier and beams and I have a 1 1/4" t&g plywood subfloor...yeah, I know, a bit overkill but, I kind of like Glenn's ideas of overkill. I also used wood Ibeams on 16" centers so should have little deflection, I hope.
Guess I took the word of the person in the tile section of HD about the latex modified thin set..and it is overkill I do not plan to use anymore.
So back to regular thin set mortor this weekend, no liquid nails or latex modified thinset.
Appreciate the input Bull
Okie Bob

[MountainDon]

... cheapest ceramic tile we could find (.79 per sf, from Lowes) ...   

Glad to hear of your success with the Lowe's tile. We've been looking at it for some time for the future cabin. It's now 0.78 per square foot, three different sizes/shades/finishes at our local Lowe's.

[MikeT]

Rather than start a new thread, I decided to update this one and then ask related questions.  The slate we have salvaged and intend to try and reuse in our house (and if this does not work, then it will wander to the beach house project) is about 1/2" thick.  When combined with backerboard (1/4"), we get at least a 3/4" floor height increase. So....

1. Is it okay to simply have the slate butt up against the kitchen cabinetry or do I need to raise all the cabinets (you know what answer I want to hear, right?).

2. Is it okay to simply have the tile butt up against the base molding and then put quarter round as a transition?  Or do I need to remove all the base molding and reset it to sit on top of the slate?

mt

[glenn kangiser]

Pretty well up to you and your conditions, Mike.

The only problem I had doing it that way was having a bit of trouble getting the dishwasher out from under the counter for repairs.  I would say to check any full height appliances you have to check for problems, make sure they can still come out if raised 3/4 to pull them up over the slate.  If the cabinets are ever replaced you could build up under them at that time if desired.

[PEG688]

So your going to lay it on the old flooring 

Pull the base , put it back afterwards , base shoe works best when used against flat base board , I'd bet your base is smaller / newer type 2 1/4" or smaller modern base , which is either beveled or has a molded profile , base shoe looks bad when used with that type of base.

Are you sure that 3/4 " added material isn't going to screw you up ?

IMO your asking for future failure of the slat floor , your dime , good luck . 

[MikeT]

We actually removed the linoleum.  We are placing the backer board today.  I can remove the old base shoe/molding much easier than I can pulling out the current cabinets. 

With regard to the amount of room I have for the dishwasher, I checked it out and it will be tight.  I will test it again before I commit.  I figure we will go ahead and place the backer board and then will come decision time.  Either we go with this slate or it goes to the beach house project. 

Thanks,
mt

[PEG688]

  Rarely would the cabinet get pulled in a case like this , unless they where being replaced as part of the project , the bigger part of it in fact.

  Pulling the base is a SOP in this type deal.

  Your statement that you'll decide after the cement board  / backer board is laid  , will you be laying a product that can be laid on backer board either way you go ? 

[MikeT]

PEG, you asked if I would be laying backerboard no matter which way I go.  That is correct.  Either we will go with the slate, or we will go with a thinner stone/ceramic product.

[MikeT]

PEG (or anyone else who cares to chime in), just to clarify before I pull up/remove the base molding.  This stuff is the MDF that measures 5 1/2" high and has a ogee profile at the top.

Remove and replace when the slate is in?

[PEG688]

PEG (or anyone else who cares to chime in), just to clarify before I pull up/remove the base molding.  This stuff is the MDF that measures 5 1/2" high and has a ogee profile at the top.

Remove and replace when the slate is in?

Ah see there's another "It depends" I did cover that in one of my posts about "guessing " what kind of base you had .  See my post 4 back from here about base thats 2 1/4" in height . I "guessed" wrong is all. 


In the case you actually have base shoe or 1/4 round would be the way to go .

Install backer board and slate up to with in 1/2 to 3/8 inch of existing base , cover "gap" with a 3/4 x 3/4 inch quarter round , or similar base shoe / molding.   

[MikeT]

I am glad I double-checked.  On Sunday morning, there are not many stores to call....

Onward!

mt

[PEG688]

Mike using a Red Oak  , or wood matching your cabinets , if they are stained,  makes a nice touch . Or some thik so , matter of taste , or what you or your wife may perfer , but it does not HAVE to be painted like the base unless thast what you'd like. 

So sort of another "It Depends" 

[MikeT]

Thanks, PEG.  I was thinking about getting rid of the MDF stuff that came with the house and replacing it with maple.  I have many, many board feet of rough cut 8 quarter and 12 quarter western maple sitting in my garage.  I am using some of it for the double stacking spiral stairs I am making and installing in the beach house project.  But I think I will have enough left over that I can explore using it for nice touches like you mention. 

But the slate flooring project is a first step and is an effort to show goodwill to my wonderful wife who gets tired of the many, many weekends and many, many dollars that are spent at the beach....

mt