Author Topic: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY  (Read 45438 times)

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Online NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #50 on: July 25, 2016, 08:35:04 AM »
Thanks Don. I will closely check for shake.

It's nice to know that if I anchor the posts down, those and the sill plate will still be there after the rest of the house flies away. :)

I have another question for anyone reading. The LVL is going in the floor deck, with 2x12s attached by hangers. Unfortunately the LVL is 11 7/8 and the joists are 11 1/4. A 5/8s difference. It seems like the thing to do is notch the double top plate 5/8 an inch to line up the LVL with the subfloor above. I'd also have to drop the two bathroom walls by 5/8 an inch. The living space would get trimmed out with hemlock to match the posts to hide the LVL.

Offline ChugiakTinkerer

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #51 on: July 25, 2016, 10:32:43 AM »
Thanks Don. I will closely check for shake.

It's nice to know that if I anchor the posts down, those and the sill plate will still be there after the rest of the house flies away. :)

I have another question for anyone reading. The LVL is going in the floor deck, with 2x12s attached by hangers. Unfortunately the LVL is 11 7/8 and the joists are 11 1/4. A 5/8s difference. It seems like the thing to do is notch the double top plate 5/8 an inch to line up the LVL with the subfloor above. I'd also have to drop the two bathroom walls by 5/8 an inch. The living space would get trimmed out with hemlock to match the posts to hide the LVL.

I may need more caffeine to get my brain on step, but I don't quite understand the situation.  You are hanging joists off the LVL, but they are aligned flush with the bottom of the LVL rather than the top.  Is that right?  If that is the case, why not raise the joists by 5/8 inch and have everything level?  The sub-floor would then go over everything, including the LVL.  Assuming the joists are resting on the first wall top plate, you could use a 2-1/8 by 3-1/2 for the second top plate to raise your joists by the needed 5/8 and flush them up on top with the LVL.  I'm only basing this on my very limited experience but I think the sub-floor being one continuous diaphragm would be a good thing, stiffening the structure much better than if there is a split down the middle.

Edit: Hehe, re-reading your post and I understand a little better.  Delayed caffeine reaction I guess.  I would do as you suggest and notch the top plate by 5/8 inch so that the LVL drops down to flush on top with the joists.  If that poses too many complications with the existing walls then running a strip of 5/8 plywood to raise the other top plate could work.  Or just use 11-7/8 rim board and have it match the LVL.  You'd have to hang the joists at the other end though.  Of all your options a notch seems the best.
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Offline Don_P

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2016, 07:32:55 PM »
One more option, LVL's come in 11.25" as well, you can also rip an LVL (which you cannot do with solid sawn dimensional lumber) IF the size is then adequate. I have raised the lvl and dropped the joists as well. If preserving the entire floor diaphragm as a unit is critical, attaching blocking to the lvl and sheathing in each joist bay would provide the required edge blocking to do that.

Offline nailit69

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2016, 06:58:10 AM »
One more option, LVL's come in 11.25" as well, you can also rip an LVL (which you cannot do with solid sawn dimensional lumber) IF the size is then adequate. I have raised the lvl and dropped the joists as well. If preserving the entire floor diaphragm as a unit is critical, attaching blocking to the lvl and sheathing in each joist bay would provide the required edge blocking to do that.

I was going to suggest the same thing.

Online NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2016, 09:44:21 AM »
Thanks for all the good suggestions. The lumber yard originally quoted an 11.25" LVL to go with the 2x12 joists. When I went to finalize the order they said 'oops we only stock 11 7/8.'

Materials is the same story over and over. All these articles and research about best practices and building methods but the materials are never available. It is kind of hilarious that the building science people will espouse the cost savings in having only a single top plate and then recommend rock wool exterior insulation and liquid flashing products. Only place I found exterior rock wool it was about 3x the cost of polyiso. Putting R-12 rock wool on the exterior of my house would probably cost more than paying someone to spray foam the whole house 5.5" thick. Liquid flashing is like $250-300 for a 5 gallon bucket. And you better order that stuff a few weeks in advance if you want to use it, cause no one stocks it.

Tyvek drainwrap is another one. Sales lady said it's not even worth quoting it because it's so expensive.

Online NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #55 on: July 31, 2016, 06:17:17 PM »
Corners plumbed, walls straightened, sheathing up. About ready to start the second floor deck. I picked up some 5/8s advantech to raise the top plate to make the joists even with the LVLs. I wouldn't have minded a 1/8" gap on the 34' LVL, but I also have a tripled up 12' LVL going over the mudroom - and that will be the edge the floor deck in the bedroom. Don't want that to be goofy.

We used EDPM gaskets everywhere the zip wall does not butt up against another piece of zip wall as part of our air barrier strategy. It may have been overkill because I am thinking about using a peel n stick product (Carlisle CCW 705 w/ primer) to flash the bottom of the zip wall to the foundation. It just seems like a bad idea to leave the edge of the OSB exposed down there.

BTW we left the studs at a full 8'. It's going to be miserable to drywall but will but will look really nice to have an extra 5" of headroom downstairs.









All our plumbing drain pipes were perfect. Not bad for our first time doing it.


Offline Don_P

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2016, 05:59:04 PM »
You can get 54" sheets of drywall, or, wide baseboard. A 3 piece base with 1x8, base cap and base shoe was very common back in the day.

Online NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #57 on: August 04, 2016, 02:41:30 PM »
Sometimes a little work looks like a lot, and a lot of work looks like a little.

I got both of those 36 foot LVLs up into position by myself. Was a lot of work and took some physics. I was able to use the loader to lift one end most of the way, but had to build scaffolding and flop 2x scraps over to hold the LVL as I lifted 1-2 feet at a time on each end.

Once they were up there and lying on their sides, in order to rotate the 250ish lb LVL up on to it's edge I clamped a 6 foot 2x scrap perpendicular to the beam and was able to easily rotate them onto their edges. Gotta love torque.

You can also see we have a tripled up LVL that spans the mudroom. That does rest on top of one of the bathroom walls, but that wall is not technically load bearing. Although I am confident that you could drive a dump truck across the slab considering it is resting on stone and then hardpan.

Also, thanks Don P for all the great advice you have given.



« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 02:58:53 PM by NathanS »

Offline Redoverfarm

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #58 on: August 04, 2016, 04:19:56 PM »
It is amazing what you can accomplish when you work by yourself.  Just have to figure a little. ;)

Online NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #59 on: August 04, 2016, 04:55:47 PM »
Redover, it sure is. So satisfying to accomplish this kind of work.

Also what kind of levels do you guys use? I am about to buy a set of Stabila 196 which as far as I can tell are the best levels made.

https://www.amazon.com/Stabila-37816-48-Inch-16-Inch-Aluminum/dp/B0000A9918

I did pick up some made in USA levels but I think they suck. I think they have been ok for framing the first floor, but I don't really trust them. Larry Haun has a cool trick to make crappy levels work for plumbing walls, but it seems like a stupid thing to skimp on.

I've also got an older level - exact level co. made in New Jersey (something like that) aluminum level that belongs to my dad. That one seems way better and made me realize the ones I bought are junk.

The Stabila are supposed to be super accurate, and (from memory) I think they throw out 85% of their bubbles because they are so stringent on the quality. Also being aluminum they should be able to handle being dropped occasionally.

Offline Redoverfarm

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #60 on: August 04, 2016, 05:55:31 PM »
Maybe I am old fashion but I have two wooden 4' levels.  Both of which have brass edges.  One is a Mayes and not sure about he other one.  The Mayes is USA made and guaranteed for life.  Then again I have a 2' Stanley aluminum which has been dropped probably one too many times but like the old watch saying " Takes a lickin and keeps on tickin".  ;D I usually test it on top of my 4' level after a fall and seems to be ok.  I would say a good quality namebrand should suffice.  Just stay away from Plastic ones.

Here is a little link that may help you decide.

http://www.bestconsumerreviews.com/levels-reviews/

Offline Don_P

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #61 on: August 04, 2016, 06:10:33 PM »
You're quite welcome, and you are doing a great job.
I've turned a whole lot of levels into rebar so I buy them at the building supply. I do buy good heavy ones and check them before buying, then whenever suspect.

I have two I've saved that are bent like skis... and they still read pretty good  :D

Online NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #62 on: August 08, 2016, 01:11:31 PM »
I bought a new box of 16d sinkers and they are total junk. The last box was made in Vietnam, this one in Malaysia. They were Grip-Rite from Lowes.

The old sinkers were about the 3.25" they were supposed to be and the new ones vary in size from 2 3/4 to 3 1/8. The first time I thumbed one out that was 2 3/4 I thought I accidentally mixed in an 8d. But, the new nails were covered in rust, so I went back to the box and quickly noticed the problem. Nail width was less too.

Nail on the left is Vietnam made, the nails on the right are a random group from the box.

I'm sure Grip-Rite senior management are patting themselves on the back over this cost saving measure.


Offline Redoverfarm

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #63 on: August 08, 2016, 02:15:41 PM »
"Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you".  Definitely be making a trip back to Lowes.  Also would be sending an E-mail to Grip-Rite (customer support) and let them know.  Shoot they might even give your money back now that their cats out of the bag.   ;)

Online NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #64 on: August 12, 2016, 02:03:36 PM »
Yep, returned them and sent a message to Grip Rite. Haven't heard anything back. Staying away from their products from now on.

Floor deck is almost done now. It was a lot of work getting those 2x12s up there. I have a ton of big clamps and spreaders now, and man are they great for straightening out lumber. You can do it with wood blocks but it's such a pain you'll find yourself settling for a little less over time...

The Simpson hangers were a bear to nail in by hand - I was bending nails left and right because the LVL is just a lot more difficult to nail into than real wood. We needed that beam to be in the floor deck, so I have no regrets. If it was going in a basement I'd just let the beam show and run joists over top.

The advantech sheathing - including the tongue - was a hair under 4 ft so I had to add blocking to the one end of the floor. Thought that was kind of dumb..

Also I used DAP sub floor glue which is like a spray foam type product. That stuff was pretty miserable to work with. By the third can I had the hang of it but I found it more work than just using PL400 in a caulk gun. Supposedly contractors like that stuff though. If you use it be careful with the cap, and if you're not spraying it immediately put the plug in the hose or it will start to clog within 5 minutes.

We really love how the slab came out, leaving that as our finished floor with no stains or anything else on it.














Offline Redoverfarm

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2016, 03:35:49 PM »
I believe when I used Advantech they recommended a polyurethane glue.  Pretty messy as well and the only thing to clean it off was Acetone.

I would at least seal the floor.  I didn't and everything that was spilled onto it stained it.  It's actually very porous despite it smooth looking appearance.

Offline Don_P

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #66 on: August 12, 2016, 09:22:38 PM »
This is probably not a big deal here but something to remember for others planning more than anything. Floor sheathing is about 3/8" undersized because of the T&G. The minimum ripped width of sheathing is 16" wide. Millions of homes have that 4" strip. The rim is the "boundary element" of the floor diaphragm. It is one edge of the wide thin beam that the floor creates. With that 4" strip that edge of the "beam" is essentially missing and the rim is not really well connected. I save the cutoffs and rips from sheathing and use them for stairs, gussets, etc.

Online NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #67 on: August 13, 2016, 04:30:20 AM »
Thanks don. I was about 1.5 inches short. I added blocking to that edge of the rim so the 4 foot sheet could get nailed off at 6" increments. I just need to cut a 1.5 inch spacer for the second story walls to sit on.

I figured with the blocking it would be as strong as if I landed on the rim.

Also I measured the sheet from edge to tip of groove  could have sworn it was less than 4 ft including tongue. I didn't hammer the tongue in flush, left 1/8 gap. Probably a little more sometimes.

Online NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #68 on: August 13, 2016, 06:41:39 AM »
I believe when I used Advantech they recommended a polyurethane glue.  Pretty messy as well and the only thing to clean it off was Acetone.

I would at least seal the floor.  I didn't and everything that was spilled onto it stained it.  It's actually very porous despite it smooth looking appearance.

I didn't actually look at what advantech recommended, probably should have but too late now. The foaming stuff is supposedly really strong. Last night I capped it and this morning it will barely come out from being clogged. Frustrating but we are basically done with it now.

We will definitely be living on the subfloor for at least several months so I will look for a sealer. Thanks.

Online NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2016, 01:17:49 PM »
I have a new question, this time about wall bracing. The code is extremely complicated.

We are going to be installing an upstairs balcony that is cantilevered out around 4', and inset around 2'. I purposely made it possible to sheath 24" inches in from the corner (would rather it be 18"), because I wasn't sure if the code requires that all corners be braced under the CS-WSP (continuously sheathed wall structural panels)... of course next to an 80" vertical opening it looks like I need 32" wide panel to count as braced (no modifier factors applied).

The inset portion will be framed diagonally (pics below), and it kinda-sorta-seems like the diagonal portion of that wall counts towards the braced wall requirements. There are also 'simplified' methods (hah yeah right) that seem to imply that you take your total wall length, and based on geographic location, roof height, etc etc etc, you figure out how much total braced wall you need that is over a certain width. If I am right about that, then it's no big deal, there are plenty of wide sheathed sections on every wall in the house.

I know there is also 'portal bracing' that would require extending the header well beyond the trimmer and driving a ton of nails into it through the sheathing. Seems like that must be for squeezing out extra bracing on garage door walls that have very little bracing section to begin with.

I think I'm worried about nothing but just want to double check with you all in case I'm missing something.






Offline Don_P

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2016, 06:24:02 PM »
I'll try to find more info but my knee jerk reaction is that neither the balcony or the 45 walls matter in the bracing scheme. the opening can be in the corner if you want, you need to run a drag strut, collector... uhhh top plate over to a braced wall section within X number of feet (12'? confirm). I think you are fine. That looks like a leaker.

Online NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2016, 06:47:28 PM »
Thanks Don. Just got kind of lost in that bracing section so thought I'd throw the question out there.

Balcony is going to be the most difficult detail on the house. It will get positive drainage, back dam, peel n stick and other flashing.

http://buildingscience.com/documents/building-science-insights/bsi-093-all-decked-out

This balcony should allow us to warmly sit outside on frigid, sunny, winter days. I think that is worth the extra effort.

Online NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #72 on: August 18, 2016, 01:05:31 PM »
Put together most of the windows for the second floor. Will have to take some pics soon. Probably won't get a chance to raise the walls till next week.


Thinking about roof framing. Don, I want to do what you showed in this post for my gable overhangs.

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=10283.0

Code only specifies up to a 1' overhang.. I was planning on 2'.. actually have enough metal for 2' 8" i think. Could be talked down to 1' 6" or so but man I want more protection than 1', will be less than that with rain screen, 2" insulation and then siding.

We are in 50psf snow load with the typical wind design speeds. Going either 9-12 or 10-12 with standing seam panels, likely no exposed fasteners. Would require some really strange conditions for snow to not quickly fall off the roof. Despite the rest of the house being 24" OC the rafters are going to be 16" OC 2x10s. I did that to save some weight while working alone. That does mean if I went to 2' I'd only have 16" inboard and then 24" outboard. That seems like it breaks a few cantilever rules.

Also noticed that the 2' overhang the code allows at the eaves is along the rafter, not horizontal from the wall. That's a weird one to me. Lower slope roofs can have more overhang even though they're more susceptible to uplift.

Don would you talk me out of an overhang that big or suggest any extra metal strapping to hold things together?

Offline ChugiakTinkerer

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #73 on: August 18, 2016, 04:49:10 PM »
I've also been planning on 24" rake overhang for my build.  I had assumed since 24" eave overhang was OK that it would apply for the gable end too.  Just goes to show how essential it is to read the entirety of the relevant code documents.  To go beyond the prescribed overhang you'll probably need an engineer to sign off (assuming you are under a jurisdictional authority).  Seems like time to bust out the Toolbox calculator and look at cantilevered beams.

For the IRC, which I am going by, the 24" for eave overhang is measured from horizontal, not slope distance.  Your code may be the same, it's worth double-checking.

Edit: With regards to the 16" rafter spacing, can you drop the first rafter down and run your outlookers over it to the next rafter, giving you 32" inboard?
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Online NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #74 on: August 18, 2016, 06:01:47 PM »
Aside from asthetics there is no better way to keep the rain away. More than a few times, I've felt some of the prescriptive codes make a building less durable or safe.

Today I was framing up the 3x5 egress bedroom windows, and from memory I think the bottom cripple is 18.5". Less than 2' off the floor to the bottom of the window. That seems way more likely to be dangerous to a child than a window that doesn't meet egress requirements. Honestly someone that can't fit through a 3x4 window is going to reach terminal velocity before they hit the ground anyway.

I was thinking another way to reinforce the lookout would be to install an upside down joist hanger on the inboard side. Could even double up the rafter so that you could use common 10d nails.

« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 06:31:01 PM by NathanS »