Brand new, no experience, and planning to build

Started by Maxs_girl, December 13, 2010, 10:13:18 AM

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Maxs_girl

My fiance and I have been dreaming of homesteading for ages.  We've finally piked out a plot of land, and will be signing papers on it in about a month.  Now we're starting to plan the most important element - our house.

The property is a little over 13 acres and is currently fully wooded.  That means we'll be doing a lot of clearing for garden and livestock frields, probably 3-4 acres worth.  We hope to have an area big enough for the house cleared by late next year, and hope to begin building at that point.  We're currently debating over whole log or cedar board, what kind of foundation to lay, and whether to build a gabled roof or a lean-to style.  And if we go for whole log, will we be able to use our own trees?

The house will be small, one floor with loft space and two small bedrooms at most.  We don't want electricity, and our small amount of plumbing will be simple and manual (a kitchen sink with a hand pump coming up from the well, and possibly a small bathtub and gravity shower, all of which will drain into grey water tanks under the house to be reused for irrigation).  We don't need anything fancy, we just want it to be sturdy and warm.  Max thinks that footers with a crawlspace underneath will be a better option for our foundation than a slab, and I agree.  We both think a whole log house would work well for us, but I'm a little concerned about bugs and settling.  How long do the logs need to dry before they're usable?  If we do a lot of clearing early next summer, would we be able to build by late fall, or do they need something more like a year?

We have some time to plan and learn, and a good friend of ours is in construction and willing to help us out a little, but I'd really appreciate advice from those of you who have experience with this kind of building.

Redoverfarm

I might suggest that you clear the land especially the building site by machine if piossible while the trees are standing.  It will make it a lot easier to remove the stumps.  Cutting the trees and then trying to remove the stumps is a task that will end up costing more time and effort to the end result.

As far as Log construction.  The logs will need to dry at the minimun of 1 year and depending on the diameter maybe even longer.  Are you planning on using round logs or milled rectangle logs?

If I might ask what area of the country are you planning on building.  That would enter into a lot of variation in the inquiry results.


John Raabe

I had to carve my building site out of a wooded 5 acre parcel. Getting good light, ventilation and drainage around the building was important in my wet gray climate.

We started by clearing a site that gave the buildings good sun to the south of the main homesite. I used the Sunkit Tools to map that as we cleared.

This article might also be helpful: http://www.countryplans.com/landkit/index.html
None of us are as smart as all of us.

Maxs_girl

Ok, so maybe whole log won't work.  I just saw something about pole barns on another thread.  Are those really a good option?  I know they're cheap, and probably relatively easy to construct, but are they warm and sturdy?  Will they hold up over time?  I'd rather spend a little extra time and money and build a house that I can leave to my children.

Squirl

I started out with many of the same hopes for my plan.  Then the reality of building codes hit me and I had to abandon them.  I hope your land is in an area that doesn't have codes.  Is the property filled with hard woods or soft woods?  How old?  Soft woods have an insulation value of approximately 1.2r per inch, and it is measured from the thinnest area of the wall.  My recollection is Rescheck has a log home built into the program.  Hardwoods have an even lower R value per inch.  If the trees are very old, thick, a good species, and straight enough for a long cabin, they are worth a lot of money.  Many people would rather sell the timber and build stick frame.  There are many posts about the positives and negatives of log cabin construction.  personally I think their beauty is unbelievable, but their drawbacks are not something I would put up with.


Maxs_girl

The land is in southern Missouri.  The plot we've chosen used to have an open meadow, so there are lots of bigger trees, but also some flat spots with fairly new growth.

Any opinions about a pole barn house?  I'd really like to hear more about them.

glenn kangiser

Pole barns can be useful as a house shell but due to their construction type, you have to construct insulated standard wall framing inside. 

Stinkerbell had one built with that intent on this forum.  Possibly a search on pole barns will turn that up.

In non code affected areas with hills, an underground house is also an option.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

glenn kangiser

Note that standard construction above ground suits most people but just wanted to be sure you were aware of the option since you were also considering a pole barn.

If you haven't seen my thread, the underground house is built using logs and boards and an EPDM or poly membrane.

It won't be considered by code officials in most areas if you ask them.  Once it goes to approved methods by a group of officials and engineers who don't understand the concepts and  process it is out of the question price wise.  I am speaking of the engineered design tables in "The $50 and Up Underground House" by Mike Oehler.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

Maxs_girl

No codes where we're building, fortunately, so we can do pretty much anything we want.  Missouri doesn't have a statewide code yet, and our land isn't really in a town.

I'm intrigued by alternative buildings and methods - underground houses, cob, straw, etc. - but I'm pretty sure the fiance wouldn't go for it, and the final decision is his.


Squirl

#9
There are a lot of free designs on many co-oportative extension and agricultural science university websites for pole buildings.  I have been kicking the idea around in my head of one on 8x16 concrete posts, with the post for the roof on one side and being able to expand to an elevated floor over time on the other side of the concrete block.

glenn kangiser

Here is a link to a book you might be interested in  - The Owner Built Pole Frame House, by Ken Kern.

http://www.amazon.com/Owner-Built-Pole-Frame-House-Barbara/dp/0684167670
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

Don_P

Log construction covers alot of ground. One neat method is a modified post and beam with vertical posts and beams supporting the roof structure and infill between the posts can be log, or studs, or cob, or about anything you want. Check out Pine Cone's build for a great example. "The Craft of Modular Post and Beam" by James Mitchell is a good read on this method

You can flatten 2 or 3 faces of a log, fit and stack them for a rustic home... actually I've done some that aren't that rustic.

Another method I've used is to build a well insulated conventional stick frame and then side it with log "siding" from 3 to 5" thick. Each log yields 2 thick siding slabs and generally a board or three.

I'm going to somewhat disagree on felling trees with equipment. Although it is fast it does cause alot of loss if you want to recover the timber. I cleared the site I'm building on now by hand and had an excavator remove the stumps from about an acre in a day. We had a portable bandmill come in and saw the 90 logs in 2 days into about 7,000 bf of timbers and boards that will be used in the house. We did have access to a tractor with a front grapple that was a huge help in moving brush and logs. I have cleared by hand, burned the brush and loaded logs as large as 3' dia by hand as well, there are some simple tricks to it if you go that route.

I'm a believer in a full perimeter foundation, it is stronger and warmer than piers.

There are many paths to the top of the hill.

Redoverfarm

Quote from: Don_P on December 13, 2010, 05:39:40 PM
Log construction covers alot of ground. One neat method is a modified post and beam with vertical posts and beams supporting the roof structure and infill between the posts can be log, or studs, or cob, or about anything you want. Check out Pine Cone's build for a great example. "The Craft of Modular Post and Beam" by James Mitchell is a good read on this method

You can flatten 2 or 3 faces of a log, fit and stack them for a rustic home... actually I've done some that aren't that rustic.

Another method I've used is to build a well insulated conventional stick frame and then side it with log "siding" from 3 to 5" thick. Each log yields 2 thick siding slabs and generally a board or three.

I'm going to somewhat disagree on felling trees with equipment. Although it is fast it does cause alot of loss if you want to recover the timber. I cleared the site I'm building on now by hand and had an excavator remove the stumps from about an acre in a day. We had a portable bandmill come in and saw the 90 logs in 2 days into about 7,000 bf of timbers and boards that will be used in the house. We did have access to a tractor with a front grapple that was a huge help in moving brush and logs. I have cleared by hand, burned the brush and loaded logs as large as 3' dia by hand as well, there are some simple tricks to it if you go that route.

I'm a believer in a full perimeter foundation, it is stronger and warmer than piers.

There are many paths to the top of the hill.

Don that was only from the standpoint of clearing the lot with disregard for the timber.  I used to clear out old orchards in my off time with a track loader.  It would take me three times longer to clear the same amount of trees once they were cut off compared to pushing and uprooting them.

Don_P

Yup, it does depend on the equipment and the final goal. We had one of these small excavators on hand;
http://www.ritchiewiki.com/wiki/index.php/Caterpillar_311_Hydraulic_Excavator
He then turned around and dug the foundation hole. The guys have also been kind enough to leave me the keys to load and move stuff when they weren't there.


Maxs_girl

Hours of reseach today and more conversation with the man have turned up another option.  We're looking into split timber and clay, like this:

Oviously we'll have a floor, real windows and better doors, and shingles rather than thatch (though a thatched roof would look cool).  Seems like a simple (if not easy) and cost effective building method, like a cross between a regluar wood framed house and a straw bale house.

glenn kangiser

Sometimes alternative seems easy, but it is also sometimes a bit labor intensive.  Still fun and interesting.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

rwanders

Conventional stick built framing is prevalent, in large part, because it is quicker and uses less materials. As stated above, logs can be beautiful but require somewhat more craftsmanship to be so--I have owned two log homes------they pose a lot of building and maintenance issues and maybe more than you would like to add to your challenges as a new builder. You sound as if "simplicity" is an important goal for you----if so, conventional stick framing with cedar or HardieBoard siding may be your best choice.
Rwanders lived in Southcentral Alaska since 1967
Now lives in St Augustine, Florida

Don_P

Those are beautiful buildings  :)
If you google wattle and daub a good selection of photos and hits pops up for that technique.
It would probably be good to research lime render as a more durable finish. I do agree with the others, materials are cheap, labor is high.

Squirl

Those are nice.  If you are looking to clear, you should check with you local county extension service.  Many will also have a forestry department connected to it.  They can have a free or low cost service to have a professional forester come assess your wood lot and give recommendations how to maximize your value and return.  This can be good if you intend to sell the timber or use the timber for building.  This would let you know which trees are worthless and would best be pushed over and turned into firewood, which would be best to build with, and which would be best to sell.  Also if you are planning on homesteading, getting to know your county extension would probably be one of the better investments of time.  They have almost all the free agricultural knowledge you could ask for.  They also have all the inside knowledge on local conditions.

Those houses are great.  I don't know what kind of insulative value clay would have.  I would bet pretty low.  My understanding is Missouri can get pretty cold.  I am a big proponent of good insulation.  Heating costs aren't going down any time soon.  My personal view point is that financial security for a long term investment in a home that is going to be handed down to your children would be as insulated and energy efficient as possible.  I have lived in many homes that were built for their time when energy was cheap, and they were just stone or brick with no insulation.  While the houses may last another century, nobody wants to live in them.

poppy

Maxs_girl  w* to the forum.

I am intrigued by you posts.  I have a few comments and suggestions which are worth exactly what you are paying for them.   :D

Obviously, this is not a homesteading forum and I don't know the modern definition of homesteading, but I'm going to make some assumptions from between the lines in what you have posted and also use my experience growing up on an old homestead in southern Ohio.

You mentioned southern Missouri as your location, but that's a pretty wide area so I'm going to assume that you are in the Ozarks east of Branson and not in the SE corner of the state.  It's up to you to narrow it down if you want to reveal more detail.

I'm going to further assume that your woodlot is mostly second growth hardwoods like oak, maple, hickory, etc.  You may also have stands of pine or maybe cedar since you mentioned cedar board construction.

Someone has already suggested a forester to assess your woodlot and that's a good idea.

Here are some of my homesteading assumptions:  You want to use available resourses efficiently.  Based on that I don't think a log house would make sense unless you have a large enough stand of pines or cedars and/or enough of the right size hardwood logs in the areas that need to be cleared.  Remember that one reason the original homesteaders constructed log houses was because they had to clear a bunch of trees and didn't have access to sawmills.

Again, based on assumptions of available resourses, hardwoods would in general be worth more as boards or timbers (as in timber frame construction).

If you are taking a year to clear just a spot for the house, it sounds like a manual job by the two of you, so the clearing process may not
yield a huge amount of useable timber.

Now, as far as the house goes, there are a bunch of questions that need to be answered before even considering construction design.

I'm assuming that part of the house location will be based on where a well can be drilled.

The other questions are things like; is there a level spot?  Or a south facing slope?  What's the drainage situation?

In other words, the available building materials (either on your land or locally) and the house site will "tell"  you what to build.

A shed roof might be the perfect solution to a south facing site, to maximize light and solar gain.

An underground or earth bermed house might be a good solution to the sturdy and warm criteria, again with a south facing slope.

When I read "sturdy" and "warm", pole barn does not come to mind.  A well insulated timber frame maybe or underground perhaps.

One last comment.  I guess I don't understand why you would not want electricity.  I understand the desire to be off-the-grid, but living without electricity would be very, very difficult.  Even the Amish are using solar panels and electricity.

Don't forget, it takes electricity in one form or the another to communicate with us.   :P





Maxs_girl

Good points all around, thanks!  I know that some of you probably think we're nuts with the "no plumbing, no electricity" thing, but that's just personal preference.  We both have life experience that gives us a pretty good idea of what we'll be getting into, though of course it'll be different doing it full time.  We plan to have a small generator just in case of an emegency, and might eventually get solar panels so that we can have a few conveniences.  It's just not a priority right now.

We have decided that we'll be going with a frame and mud house, like those pictured.  We probably won't be using wood that we cut off the property, but will be bringing building materials in.  One possibility we'll be looking into soon is reclaiming materials from an old barn or house, but I'm not sure how feasible that will be.  At any rate, it's a possibility.  Research of the composition of the plaster will be commencing soon.  We're looking into insulation methods for this sort of house.  It seems like a layer of straw mixture sandwiched by plaster might be a good bet.  The land we're looking at (but have not actually purchased yet, so you never know) is in Texas County, up in the hills.  Insulation is definitely going to be important.

There will be a well drilled, and that will determine the exact location of the house.  The property is a bowl - low in the middle and high (and flat) on the sides - so we have a slope facing every direction.  Shouldn't be hard to face the house and fields any way we want.  The best building site on the property is an old meadow that has overgrown, so the trees there are small and should be a bit easier to clear.

I appreciate all the advice I've gotten here, whether encouraging or discouraging.  It's nice to know what our challenges will be, so we can prepare to work a little harder to overcome them.

glenn kangiser

Are there any concerns of flooding if you build in a low area?  Seems Missouri has flooding in some areas.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

Maxs_girl

We're up in the hills and planning to build at the top of the slope, so probably not.  But another thing worth checking into, thanks.