The American Nightmare

[Shawn B]

I promised myself I wasn'y going to say anything on this topic. Does this count?

dead horse

I think it gets your point across, but not where you stand on the "official story" of 9/11 

[Proud_Poppa]

I promised myself I wasn'y going to say anything on this topic. Does this count?

[deadhorse]

Hillarious!!   

[Grimjack]

When you look back through history and find that almost every war the United States has fought in the last century we entered under false pretenses, you have to ask why this current one would be any different.

WWI- The sinking of the Lusitiana The US and Britian pretty much begged Germany to sink the Ship
WWII-Pearl Harbor- history has shown that the US had advance warning of the attack and allowed it to occur with any response
Vietnam-Gulf of Tonkin has been proven to be an event that never occurred.

Why is it so hard to believe that our government could have been complicit in the attacks of 9/11.

The problem is our government lies all the time, why should we believe them now?

What the common thread? Private business made a lot of money during those wars. Just like they are now in the gulf war. Our soldiers aren't fighting to preserve democracy ( a word that never appears in the Constitution by the way) They are fighting to make private industries rich

How does the government "lose" 10 billion dollars in Iraq and no one seems to care where it went?

[dug]

I promised myself I wasn'y going to say anything on this topic. Does this count? (dead horsie that only don can conjure)


Right you are Don. I apologize to anyone who may have suffered any of my tirades.

However it is difficult for me, I'm an optimist and retain the pie eyed outlook that there might yet be some reconciliation and accountability in this matter. Sometimes it feels like an old Alfred Hitchcock movie where the character is screaming at the top of his lungs and no one can hear.

[peternap]

I promised myself I wasn'y going to say anything on this topic. Does this count? (dead horsie that only don can conjure)


Right you are Don. I apologize to anyone who may have suffered any of my tirades.

However it is difficult for me, I'm an optimist and retain the pie eyed outlook that there might yet be some reconciliation and accountability in this matter. Sometimes it feels like an old Alfred Hitchcock movie where the character is screaming at the top of his lungs and no one can hear.

The tirades here are pretty mild Dug.
Contrary to popular opinion, gun people don't all get along. There are some sites that I frequent that make Church attendance mandatory after I visit them.

[MountainDon]

[deadhorse] was not aimed anyone... it was aimed at the topic...

[MountainDon]

As far as my position goes, even though there are many things I believe the federal government, my state government and my local government can be fairly criticized and condemned for, that there are things that they have lied about at times, I do not believe the attack on the twin towers, or the pentagon were orchestrated by any level of government anywhere.   Nor the plane that went down in PA. Nor were the NY building collapses orchestrated. A missile never hit the pentagon. I think that pretty much covers that topic

That's all I have so say. For the very curious a site search will reveal a variety of comments I've made on the topic; now and then back to about 2007 I think.  

[MountainDon]

One further item.  Please be clear the following is my personal, individual opinion.


I believe I have put more or less as much thought into the subject of 9/11 as many other people who have passionate views on the subject. There is one thing that 'bugs' me about many of the discussions.

Sheeple is a derogatory term. Its use shows a condescending, demeaning attitude. It is a personal putdown. It implies I'm better than you, I'm right and you are wrong. It smacks of a disdainful arrogance, a patronizing sanctimony.

Sheeple insinuates a non thinking person with no ability to process information and make decisions for themselves. Just because someone comes up with an idea, thought or opinion that differs from what one believes themselves does not make that other person a fool, an idiot or a sheeple.

We are better than name calling.


At least that is my personal take on it.

[dug]

was not aimed anyone... it was aimed at the topic..

Well I was not offended, I should have inserted one of these  as I was only half kidding. Not about the dead horse part though, you are right Don, that's what it has become.

[NM_Shooter]

Contrary to popular opinion, gun people don't all get along. There are some sites that I frequent that make Church attendance mandatory after I visit them.

Heck, not too long ago, when gun people didn't get along it resulted in mandatory attendance at an funeral parlor for one, and a courthouse for another.

[glenn kangiser]

I don't view sheeple as being derogatory.  Sorry if anyone takes it that way.

I view sheeple as anyone who will blindly accept the official lies the government is telling in light of their past behavior as Dug mentioned.

They meekly and mildly get herded into the flock to graze only where they are told.  They do not question the shepherds actions - just get slapped with a conspiracy theorist label if they do and either the rush back into the flock or are outcast to possibly be destroyed.

Not questioning is exactly what they want you to do.  That makes me want to question it even more.

Evidence says there is a major crime here that our people were in on.  Looking the other way will not bring any of it to light.

Bman, I am curious?  What is your motivation for unquestioning support? What would make you want to overlook evidence of a crime?

Investments?  Relatives involved?  People you voted for?  

Please don't take this as a put down or anything of the sort.  I seriously want to understand why you would not look into allegations of crime when so much evidence points toward it.  

Yet, you will not even consider it seriously and consider questioning it ridiculous.  Can you not see that that is the way you have been programmed to react?  Why won't you look into it?

I am just trying to understand why people are that way.   What is the rationale behind that thought pattern?  It cannot be that politicians are such upstanding citizens.  Much evidence from the past indicates the contrary.

[glenn kangiser]

was not aimed anyone... it was aimed at the topic..

Well I was not offended, I should have inserted one of these   as I was only half kidding. Not about the dead horse part though, you are right Don, that's what it has become.

That is exactly what is wrong here.

This should be a subject that is pursued to conviction.  Not one that continues to be swept under the rug and looking the other way and GWB told you to do - label questioners conspiracy theorist and don't take the subject seriously.  We would be ruled by Hitler if many didn't question his actions and all looked the other way.  I'm sure he also did not allow questioning but good for us that some persisted.

Looking nthe other way will allow the guilty ones to succeed as they said they will.  I am not talking about the individual who made the statement , but the group he and the parties responsible are a part of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CWBTL33MpA&feature=related

A link to the PNAC goals and statements- I don't necessarily endorse anything on this site and haven't reviewed anything else there - just that I found the info on this subject there..

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/nc-pilger.html

[Shawn B]

What is your motivation for unquestioning support? What would make you want to overlook evidence of a crime?

Investments?  Relatives involved?  People you voted for? 

It is my opinion/observation that people, American's in particular have trouble separating their belief in country from government, and patriotism from blind obedience, and maybe one of the biggest supporting the troops = supporting the president = supporting the war(s), no matter the reasoning for the war(s).

Sheeple are simple people who see and hear the facts but are unable to accept them, for what ever reasons 

[Proud_Poppa]

At the possible cost of lengthening this thread I do have one question. Soon to follow. As near as i can see....no one on either side of this issue changed their mind. That seems to be the case these days on a lot of issues. Our country is extremely polarized it seems to me. Now here is my question:

Lets just say that you convinced everyone on this forum that our government is responsible for setting up 3000 people to die in 9/11 to stir the American public into supporting the invasion of the middle east so that a few rich guys/companies could go steal those poor peace loving Muslims oil. I think that's the general meat of your argument.

So.....now what?

Quite honestly....we could have a totally peaceful revolution in this country every 4 to 6 years....it's called VOTING. I wonder how many here actually vote. At any rate I DO VOTE....every chance I get. And I think it's safe to say that to my knowledge....unless it's some local county office.....that there is not one single person representing me in either the state or federal governments that I voted for.

So what is it you expect of me by "convincing" me of the evil of the USA?

[MountainDon]

I wonder how many here actually vote.

I/we do.      I know there are those who say it doesn't make any difference. I believe if one votes, after giving it some real thought, not being a sheeple in other words, it may just keep "them" off guard and concerned enough to watch what they do.

[peternap]

At the possible cost of lengthening this thread I do have one question. Soon to follow. As near as i can see....no one on either side of this issue changed their mind. That seems to be the case these days on a lot of issues. Our country is extremely polarized it seems to me. Now here is my question:

Lets just say that you convinced everyone on this forum that our government is responsible for setting up 3000 people to die in 9/11 to stir the American public into supporting the invasion of the middle east so that a few rich guys/companies could go steal those poor peace loving Muslims oil. I think that's the general meat of your argument.

So.....now what?

Quite honestly....we could have a totally peaceful revolution in this country every 4 to 6 years....it's called VOTING. I wonder how many here actually vote. At any rate I DO VOTE....every chance I get. And I think it's safe to say that to my knowledge....unless it's some local county office.....that there is not one single person representing me in either the state or federal governments that I voted for.

So what is it you expect of me by "convincing" me of the evil of the USA?

If you spend enough time here, you'll find most of us do vote and are active in politics in one way or another.

What you're getting here are ideas and discussion, not necessary conversion. My conspiracy theories fall along the same lines as Mountain Don's. I am a little right of him when it comes to government abuse of power, but that's what makes this board different. We all get along for the most part, even though we all have different priorities and beliefs.

The voting revolution may be a little harder than you think simply because money gets votes and the best choices for the job may not have money.

[Windpower]

The top 1 % of Americans now earn over 20% of the income

These same 1% along with companies can now (courtesy of our criminal "supreme court' ) spend unlimited funds in promoting or getting rid of politicians they don't think will continue to help them line their pockets

while this doesn't make voting a waste of time, it is getting closer to that all the time

"It's been going on for 10 thousand years"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfmYF6Yboa4

So I told him
That he'd better
Shut his mouth
And do his job like a man
And he answered,
"Listen, father,
I will never
Kill another"
He thinks he's better
Than his brother that died
What the hell does
He think he's doing
To his father
Who brought him up right?

Take your place on
The Great Mandella
As it moves through your brief moment of time
Win or lose now
You must choose now
And if you lose you're only losing your life

Tell the jailor
Not to bother
With his meal
Of bread and water today
He is fasting
Till the killing's over
He's a martyr
He thinks he's a prophet
But he's a coward
He's just playing a game
He can't do it
He can't change it
It's been going on for ten thousand years

Take your place on
The Great Mandella
As it moves through your brief moment of time
Win or lose now
You must choose now
And if you lose you're only losing your life

Tell the people
They are safe now
Hunger stopped him
He lies still in his cell
Death has gagged his accusations
We are free now
We can kill now
We can hate now
Now we can end the world
We're not guilty
He was crazy
And it's been going on for ten thousand years!

Take your place on
The Great Mandella
As it moves through your brief moment of time
Win or lose now
You must choose now
And if you lose you've only wasted your life




and that is why we must continue to hold the bastard's feet to fire all the time

[NM_Shooter]

I don't view sheeple as being derogatory.  Sorry if anyone takes it that way.

I view sheeple as anyone who will blindly accept the official lies the government is telling in light of their past behavior as Dug mentioned.

So I agree with Don... and your statement above is precisely why it is offensive.  You're passing judgement that someone is blindly accepting (whatever).  You're basing this purely on your own biases, not proven fact.  Just because someone does not agree with your position, does not mean that they have not carefully reviewed and processed their own set of data, and have come to their own conclusion. 

It is a form of bigotry, to demean those purely based on difference of opinion.  I've been guilty of this myself, and am trying not to fall into behavior like that again.

If we use Dug's basis that "the government has lied to us before, so this is a lie too".  Doesn't hold water.  It is purely Ad Hominem. 

You can't pull that out as an argument either for or against something and only use it when it suits your position.

[Windpower]

Bob Bowman

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html#Bowman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYAHPuaBmV0&feature=player_embedded

Col Robert Bowman
President of the Institute for Space and Security Studies
Executive Vice President of Millennium III Corporation
retired Presiding Archbishop of the United Catholic Church
101 combat missions in Vietnam
directed all the "Star Wars" programs under Presidents Ford and Carter
recipient of the Eisenhower Medal
George F. Kennan Peace Prize
President's Medal of Veterans for Peace
Society of Military Engineers' ROTC Award of Merit (twice)
Six Air Medals
Ph.D. is in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering from Caltech
chaired 8 major international conferences
one of the country's foremost experts on National Security
independent candidate for President of the US in 2000
http://thepatriots.us

[Grimjack]

For those that don't believe the US government would be capable of participating in false flag attacks to further its goals, Here is an article about the Gladio project in Europe and how the US assisted in setting up secret armies after WWII. Those armies participated in terrorist attacks and blamed them on left-wing fringe groups.

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/content/natos-secret-armies

The Authors conclusion:

America, to this day, is the world's leading state-sponsored terrorism exponent, at home and abroad. CIA, FBI, and Homeland Security operatives are in the lead, putting a myth to their abiding by the rule of law or a nation espousing democratic freedoms, human rights, civil liberties, and equal justice, what only an aroused public can stop if awakened to the danger and acts.

[NM_Shooter]

Hey... here's a clue.  Don't believe everything you read, or see a video on.  "Experts" are frequently whack jobs themselves.  (This covers both sides).

Look, I get it.  Many of you are vehemently anti-US, anti-Israel, anti-capitalism and apple pie.  You've run out of tangible things to have a beef about, yet your angst still overflows. 

If I had to guess, I would guess that most conspiracy folks are angry and bitter people, disappointed with the way their life has turned out.  Not willing to take the blame for their own unhappiness, they lash out at the pseudo-parental figure in their lives....which happens to be the government / big business / military. 

They're looking at blaming the NWO, spearheaded by George Bush, and big corporations in America for 9/11, chemtrails, earthquakes, climate change, Tsunami destruction, yada, yada, yada. 

They uphold these beliefs in spite of the fact that they (or anyone else) have absolutely zero hard evidence.  Ask Michael Moore about getting folks to believe anything.  He and PT Barnum have got folks pretty well figured out. 

But hey, that's okay.  Nothing wrong with any of the above.  After all, this is America.  Short of calling the president a p***k, you can pretty much do whatever you want in your spare time.  I think you're insane, but I'll still drink a beer with you or hammer a nail. 

Speaking of spare time, I just wasted some of mine on this thread.  Won't happen on this one again! 

[IronRanger]

If I had to guess, I would guess that most conspiracy folks are angry and bitter people, disappointed with the way their life has turned out.  Not willing to take the blame for their own unhappiness, they lash out at the pseudo-parental figure in their lives....which happens to be the government / big business / military. 

You guess wrong.  My anger's directed exactly where it needs to be- at whomever's treading on the constitution and expecting me to grin and bear it.  False optimism is a common feeling amongst Tea Partiers, neo-cons and right-wingers.  Rainbows and puppy dog's tails.  Let's keep everything private and allow everyone to hold their own beliefs- as long as they agree with us.

Conservatives believe Liberals are to blame for the ills of this nation, when it's much more frequently the right-wing hypocrites laughing all the way to the bank.

Too many conservatives (especially former military) ignore that our government/military has committed false flag attacks in the past.  Too many believe in putting on a SHOW of force for the world to quake before.  Too many lay before the altar of authority getting his ego scratched by his leader and waiting patiently for his master to take him for a run-around the yard.

Yet, once more, the "conspiracy theorists" are ridiculed for their "ignorance".   

The irony here is that conservatives view us as hate-filled and unhappy.  That's the most laughable thing of all.

[glenn kangiser]

Actually the term, Conspiracy Theorist is meant to demean and label those who think the government could do wrong for any reason as nutcases.

It is a prescriptive  response directed to be used against anyone who questioned the massive criminal operation they pulled off on 9/11 by GWB.

At least in my use of the word sheeple, it is not meant to be derogatory by me, but only to describe a group who will not accept the fact that their government who has deceived them is still doing it and will continue to do it in the future as in the past.  It is a group of people I pity and feel sorry for - not hate or mean to deride.

I agree that people who can see what is being done are not sad, scared or hate the US.  They in fact love the US more than those who only look the other way and ignore the crime, the loss of life and the theft of our freedoms being perpetrated on us by our criminal leadership.

My relatives came here in 1889 sacrificing even the lives of their children to hardship, disease and death to homestead the Oregon territory.  They loved this country enough to go to the point of losing their lives for it.

What we are dissatisfied with is the theft of the principles and values they felt is was worth dying for.  What we are dissatisfied with is the apathy toward that theft and the attitude that anything that is done to our country, any way our criminal leadership wants to soil our name around the world is OK.  The repulsion against a real investigation because the government does not want them to look and blocks every effort against a real investigation.  Think the Gulf oil spill is over?  Better check it out a bit better.

We are not OK with looking the other way as evidence points to the fact that our government assisted in a massive operation to change the views of the masses to support the unending wars for a concept that will allow our  military and corporations to attack and plunder any country anywhere for oil, riches and power.

What is un-American about wanting to look into high treason performed by our leadership?  Our country was founded on principals to stop exactly that sort of thing.  

It seems it is only un-American if we will not push an investigation of all facts with an unbiased group that will actually dig to the bottom of things and not be stopped by criminal censorship.

It seems to me that that is love of our country.  Not looking the other way and accepting whatever our leadership throws at us as truth.  In this type of situation it seems that those who will not push for investigation are the ones who do not love the country.

Antisemitism -- the very word is simply another way to stop investigation of things certain groups do not want looked at.  Search my name and you will find lots of my relatives listed in Jewish cemeteries in Lithuania.  

I have no hate for them or others of Israel who are not criminally involved with our leadership and the theft of the US as it was meant to be.

I tolerate, host and befriend people from all over the world.  I have been invited to stay in homes from the Middle East (Muslim) to China to Japan to South America.  Dislike of criminals and their works knows no bounds though.

Just as people in your own city may do harm to you and you know that, is it impossible to think that rogue elements in your government will not do things that are against the interests of the people and our country?  Is not weeding that out love of country?

[glenn kangiser]

[deadhorse] was not aimed anyone... it was aimed at the topic...

I agree, Don.  We cannot discuss this topic intelligently with out comments some find offensive and all comments whether they are offensive to some or not must be aimed at the topic. 

If we do not talk about things that may offend some of us if taken personally, then the topic will die and that is exactly what they want to see happen.  Lets continue to discuss and look at both sides.  We may all learn something.

[dug]

Well I spent the better part of half an hour posting a comment this morning only to have it deleted when I tried to delete one sentence.  It was a doozy too, I think I dang near had that old horse breathing again! 

I'll try again with a couple of issues I feel are worthy of mentioning.

Lets just say that you convinced everyone on this forum that our government is responsible for setting up 3000 people to die in 9/11 to stir the American public into supporting the invasion of the middle east so that a few rich guys/companies could go steal those poor peace loving Muslims oil. I think that's the general meat of your argument.

So.....now what?

A valid question that I believe prevents 90% of Americans from even considering the possibility of a government conspiracy.

Look, I get it.  Many of you are vehemently anti-US, anti-Israel, anti-capitalism and apple pie.  You've run out of tangible things to have a beef about, yet your angst still overflows. 

If I had to guess, I would guess that most conspiracy folks are angry and bitter people, disappointed with the way their life has turned out.  Not willing to take the blame for their own unhappiness, they lash out at the pseudo-parental figure in their lives....which happens to be the government / big business / military. 

I really think you have this one wrong Shooter. Most of my friends who have similar beliefs about the misrepresentation of the events of 911 are successful well rounded people with families they love. I have said before that I am an optimist and I'm not joking. I have always had a positive outlook on life and have enjoyed very good fortune thus far. I am not generally bitter but this is one issue in my life that continues to leave a bitter taste. I am not perfect, but far from insane (yet). I, and many others would just like a genuine independent investigation into this crime. If this is not important enough to validate one than what is? We want closure, not closed eyes.