Arizona's new illegal alien law.....

[StinkerBell]

I have no isse with legal immgration. I have said so many times. I am very irriated by illegal immigration.  However I also do not like giving up my liberties in order to deal with those who are breaking the law and having to hold a national id for me is not right or being detained because I left my wallet at home is not right either (All though a cop can look you up based on your date of birth and address and look at your picture....)

Anyways....I really have come to the thought that the issue alot of us have is paying for those not legally here be it through the cost of health care or those on welfare. I seriously believe at this point going to a federal sales tax instead a federal wage tax is the way to go. This way everyone pays federal taxes (and even state) based up their consumerism. Thus those illegalize will be paying and contributing to the tax base based on what they buy too.

[glenn kangiser]

Gee, I thought that AZ already had that law back in 1999 when I got pulled over by an AZ state trooper and patted down because I had out of state plates and was working for the summer there.  Oh, and he wanted to know if me and my Navajo friend who was riding with me were drinking because, well, we looked suspicious with out of state tags, dark skin, and tinted windows.  He told me that my OK license was not valid for more than 16 days in AZ (not true, I did look that one up) and that I had to immediately get my license and tags changed to AZ.  Thought he was going to arrest the whole bunch of us at first, and the crazy thing was that he didn't even have a reason to pull us over in the first place!

I think his only interest was in patting you down, Homey....

[muldoon]

Well, good or bad, right or wrong. the idea certainly seems to be catching on ...

http://www.kvue.com/news/Berman-aide-State-Rep-plans-immigration-bill-similar-to-Arizonas-92213914.html
Texas

Texas rep. plans immigration bill similar to Arizona law
by MARTIN BARTLETT / KVUE News
Posted on April 27, 2010
AUSTIN – State Rep. Leo Berman, R-Tyler, will introduce immigration legislation comparable to a law recently enacted in Arizona, according to an aide.
Rep. Berman, who is traveling in Europe, authorized the aide to respond to KVUE News' request for information regarding his plans for the 82nd Legislative Session which begins in January 2011.
According to the aide, Berman said his bill will be similar to the Arizona law, specifically the provision which requires local law enforcement agencies in the state to check the immigration status of individuals who they suspect of being in the United States illegally. ... entire article at link

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700027727/Utah-lawmaker-Stephen-Sandstrom-to-draft-immigration-bill-similar-to-Arizonas.html?pg=1
Utah

Utah lawmaker Stephen Sandstrom to draft immigration bill similar to Arizona's
By Arthur Raymond
Deseret News
Published: Monday, April 26, 2010
The political and legal fallout now plaguing Arizona after that state's passage of one of the nation's toughest new immigration laws could soon be headed for Utah.
Arizona's SB1070, signed into law Friday by Gov. Jan Brewer, calls for, in part, all local law enforcement officers to ask for immigration status documents "whenever there is reasonable suspicion that the person is unlawfully present."
Rep. Stephen Sandstrom, R-Orem, told the Deseret News Monday he's started work on drafting a bill for the 2011 Utah legislative session that uses the Arizona statute as a model — a move he said is necessary to stanch the flow of illegal immigrants into the Beehive State.
"It is imperative that we pass similar legislation here in Utah," Sandstrom said. "In the past, when we've seen tougher legislation in Arizona ... a lot of illegal immigrants just move here." ... entire article at link

http://www.wlwt.com/news/23279581/detail.html
Ohio

Legal Immigrants Would Be Required To Show Papers
April 27, 2010
HAMILTON, Ohio --
An area lawmaker and law enforcement official known for their tough stances on illegal immigration have asked Ohio officials for legislation similar to a controversial Arizona law.
Butler County Sheriff Richard Jones and state Rep. Courtney Combs sent letters Tuesday to Gov. Ted Strickland, Senate President Bill Harris and Speaker of the House Armond Budish urging them to develop and pass a law that mirrors Arizona's Senate Bill 1070.
Under the new law, legal immigrants would required to carry documents to prove their status and law enforcement officers would be required to check the legal status of anyone they suspect of being undocumented... more linked

Personally.  I show my ID when I buy beer, when I need to buy insurance, when I get a job, when I renew my license, when I rent a car, when I get pulled over, when I purchase car, or pay for car or trailer registration, when I need to do the state inspection, when I write a check, when I applied for a mortgage, when I try use a credit card in some places, or even when I just happen to get caught in a simple DUI checkpoint where everyone goes through it.  

I see nothing wrong with asking others to provide identification when asked.  I see nothing wrong with enforcing existing laws.  

[muldoon]

Just be be clear on my position on this, my wife is an immigrant.  Her family escaped the civil war of El Salvadore when she was a child.  I certainly have no problems with the culture or the people, or the idea of immigration, nor do I have any issues with a slightly darker skin color.  I do have a problem with criminals who have no respect for our laws and come here to cause a collective drain on our neighborhoods, our schools, our personal safety net programs, our police forces, our hospitals, and our criminal system. 

[glenn kangiser]

I agree, muldoon.  People are people.  I work with Mexicans daily, most of all who are here legally.  I have a problem with any criminals who are up to no good, no matter what color.  

My point is that I would trust my life to any of these immigrants I work with more than I do with some legal substance abuser who may be working on the job.  In my work I often depend on these guys to have their wits about them and hold up their end of the job.

How many of us come from immigrant families?  

How many people do we support that are legal but will not work in order to keep from losing their benefits? I know and have known a ton of them over the years and they were not illegal immigrants.  Just legal lazy entitled slobs and I think they may be more of a drain on us than an illegal who will work and support our (broken) system.  

This does not mean I am in favor of unlimited illegal immigration.  Just that I have nothing against the good ones personally.  

[speedfunk]

It is unconstitutional.  Simple as that.  I guess as your the "right" ethnicity , oh wait what happens is when your not?  What happens when they pull you over for no reason other then the way you look.  How would that make feel?

Imagine the nerve of the immigrants.... right?  We were here first damn it !  Oh yeah..the indians... I wonder if we had legal papers at the time when we slaughtered them.

Read the law.  This has nothing to do with who the cops pull over. 

Is it unconstitutional to ask a 18 year old to show ID when he tries to purchase alcohol?

Ah the march toward fascism.  Guilty till proven innocent.  I'm not sure what being 18 and showing ID has to do with anything.   

[NM_Shooter]

Ah the march toward fascism.  Guilty till proven innocent.  I'm not sure what being 18 and showing ID has to do with anything.   

Seriously?  You don't understand the correlation?

Did you read Muldoon's post?  Did you read the law?

The point that we are making is that we Americans already have to provide documentation of who we are before we are eligible to do many things.  You seem to be upset that a person needs to be able to prove who they are in order to obtain benefits associated with being an American (such as being on American soil legally). 

Let's go over that one more time. 

A person who is in our country is asked to show identification in order to obtain benefits of being American.

A person who wants to purchase alcohol is asked to show identification in order to obtain alcohol. 

My question was pretty simple... do you have a problem with the second example as well as the first example?

Here's a bonus question....

Can you name any modern advanced country that allows someone to enter and stay without national identification?

[ScottA]

Can you name any modern advanced country that allows someone to enter and stay without national identification?

United States of America

Oh wait we aren't modern or advanced. Nevermind.

[NM_Shooter]

In an effort to show what good neighbors and citizens they can be, looks like we can expect a day of road clogging. 

I especially like the last sentence :

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63R5HP20100428

[glenn kangiser]

I stuck up for the good ones a bit but then there are ones like this who can't understand why her son was shot by police just because he shot at them with an assault rifle... but he is likely here legally.  He made it to 15 and only has one kid that is a year old...

http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/local&id=7405884

[MountainDon]

I boil this all down to a yes or a no answer to the following question... does the USA have the right to limit immigration to our own country? A simple yes or no answer is all that's needed, no, "yes, but..."  or "maybe, but..." just a simple yes or no answer.

I truly believe that every country in the world has their own right to allow or disallow immigration into their own country. No one has a right to live in any other country just because they feel like it. There are procedures in place to grant or deny permission to someone to emigrate to the USA. I suppose this whole thing irks me more than some folks as I went through the legal paperwork, the hoop jumping, the fingerprinting, the background checking, the interviews and everything in order to move legally to this country and be assigned an official green card and a SSN.


I don't have all the answers of what to do with those who are already here. However, if they are "recent" illegals and would not have been permitted to immigrate if they had made official application they should go back from where they came. Rounding up families who have been here for years is impractical. They should be encouraged to fully join in participation in our society. BTW, if immigrants (green card holders) are convicted of breaking US federal laws of any kind, as things are now and have been for decades, they can be deported at any time regardless of having established families in this country.

Have to start somewhere.

[peternap]

I boil this all down to a yes or a no answer to the following question... does the USA have the right to limit immigration to our own country? A simple yes or no answer is all that's needed, no, "yes, but..."  or "maybe, but..." just a simple yes or no answer.

I truly believe that every country in the world has their own right to allow or disallow immigration into their own country. No one has a right to live in any other country just because they feel like it. There are procedures in place to grant or deny permission to someone to emigrate to the USA. I suppose this whole thing irks me more than some folks as I went through the legal paperwork, the hoop jumping, the fingerprinting, the background checking, the interviews and everything in order to move legally to this country and be assigned an official green card and a SSN.


I don't have all the answers of what to do with those who are already here. However, if they are "recent" illegals and would not have been permitted to immigrate if they had made official application they should go back from where they came. Rounding up families who have been here for years is impractical. They should be encouraged to fully join in participation in our society. BTW, if immigrants (green card holders) are convicted of breaking US federal laws of any kind, as things are now and have been for decades, they can be deported at any time regardless of having established families in this country.

Have to start somewhere.

That's the rational way to look at it Don...unfortunately, I can't ever seem to look at things in black and white. I have this nasty compassionate streak I can't seem to get rid of.

First, the majority of illegals I run across are worthless and I'd like nothing better than to bus them back home. BUT...when I try to think of an across the board, zero tolerance policy I hit a snag.

Let's put me in the position.
I was born in the armpit of the world. No chance at a livable income, rampant corruption, horrid living conditions, a wife and two kids. Just across the river is a country where even doing basic labor I can make more in a year than in ten in my country. So I go for a swim, get a job doing landscape work, learn the language, obey the law and mind my own business.
Things go so well I sneak the wife and kids over and we all learn the language, obey the law, pay our taxes...so on.

This goes on for 15 years and in reality, we've been better citizens than the citizens.

Isn't there a point when my wife and myself can stop looking over our shoulders and live like free men and women should.

That's the problem with witch hunts.

[MountainDon]

Isn't there a point when my wife and myself can stop looking over our shoulders and live like free men and women should.

I agree with that.  Right now though I believe we need to stop the incessant new illegal crossings and honestly assess those that have been here for "a while". If they are honest hard workers, great.  As you say, there is no one size fits all, never has been, never will be, no matter what it is one is talking about.   We've had an amnesty program in the past. It was supposed to be an "end all" But it wasn't. 

[peternap]

Isn't there a point when my wife and myself can stop looking over our shoulders and live like free men and women should.

I agree with that.  Right now though I believe we need to stop the incessant new illegal crossings and honestly assess those that have been here for "a while". If they are honest hard workers, great.  As you say, there is no one size fits all, never has been, never will be, no matter what it is one is talking about.   We've had an amnesty program in the past. It was supposed to be an "end all" But it wasn't. 

Yes we do!
As usual, you, NM and Muldoon have given a pretty good assessment of the situation and if Arizona can pull this off in a fair and humane way...I'm all for it.

A lot of the concerns I have come from being on the other side of the fence and seeing how we treat our own citizens as well as illegals. One instance that stands out was a conversation I had with one of the SCC Judges. There was a Vietnamese kid that worked in the mail room and he was bragging about an expensive stereo he had just gotten.

Later in the day the Judge said to me "He buys those things because he and his wife work three jobs. They aren't like us, barely  human".
It wasn't meant as a compliment.

Another time, I was in Richmond and had warrants for someone in the Fan. I walked up to two of the local Cops at 7-11, told them what I was doing and told them it might get exciting and please don't shoot me if they get called (That almost happened once). The older cop giggled and said "We don't shoot white men for running after people".

So much for putting a lot of faith in professionalism.

[NM_Shooter]

I've been reflecting on what it is about illegals that chaps my ass so bad.  I have no issue with legal immigration... heck, my roots here in the US don't stretch back more than two generations. 

I think that it is the fact that when my grandparents came here, they came here to be American, and to contribute to America.  They did their damnedest to break ties with the old country, learn the language and BE AMERICAN.  They didn't want to be German/Hungarian/Czech in America, they wanted to be Americans.  They became citizens, learned English, worked three jobs, paid taxes, raised kids who fought for the US, and wanted desperately to BE AMERICAN.  They wanted to build America and create wealth, and did their best to fit in.

I see the new class of immigrants somewhat differently.  They fly their flag on state property,  have no interest in learning English, have no desire to adapt to our culture and insist on having their customs and traditions honored and practiced here.  Don't get me wrong... I think it is good for them to maintain some of their own culture, but the damn Mexican flag waving road blocks during immigration protest rallies downtown on Cinco de Mayo piss me off. 



IF they come here to be an AMERICAN citizen, work hard, pay taxes, obey the laws, and celebrate the 4th of July, and I'll help them move in.     

[OlJarhead]

Well I'm not the left and I'm not exactly lathered up about it nor am I pro-illegal immigration but I can tell you why it is upsetting to many people, including myself.

Racial profiling. The bill makes it legal to pull over, detain, and jail people based on skin color. I've heard the counter arguments, "What's the big deal? Just show the proper documentations and there is no problem!".

I have left my house and forgotten my wallet before, I don't think I should have to potentially go to jail for that. Of course you and I will never need to endure that, being fair skinned. Still doesn't make it right.

Papers please!??  Sounds like some other countries we used to think of as evil, not America.

I'm coming into this late, so my apology if I missed something, but has someone actually shown the section of the law which allows racial profiling?  Or is this just another propaganda hack job?

I've read the law, it's not easy to read, but I couldn't find that specific peace in there.

So please, direct me to the EXACT paragraph which allows racial profiling please.

Thanks

[OlJarhead]

I went through all the posts and what I found was merely speculation and guessing.

I submit that all the answer and rhetoric is nothing more then ill informed masses fighting their fight for the sake of fighting it.

Calling this bill unconstitutional is laughable if you are a health care supporter since that bill actually IS, but more so laughable because it demonstrates a lack of knowledge on the Constitution itself and the founders of our great nation.

Calling this racial profiling is nothing more then cheap race bating.  Period.

Quite frankly opposing this attempt to secure our border is akin to promoting slavery.  I personally oppose any form of slavery.

As for the comment about 'fascism' -- you do realize that Progressive = Socialist and Socialism is nothing more then secular fascism right?

Hitler's party was the National Socialist Party - The left are socialists.

So while some in this debate want to try to make the claim that 'The right' or 'conservatives' just want slaves, or that they are fascists and want national papers etc etc what they don't realize is that Progressives in BOTH parties want this.  Left and Right, Conservative and Liberal, Democrat and Republican, and anyone who argues vehemently for either side is nothing more then a useful idiot (thanks Lenin or Stalin whichever).

We DO need to enforce our laws.  We DON'T need more laws.

Indeed, we need LESS laws, LESS regulation and SMALLER government -- it's the only way to prevent the Fascism or Marxism that you (and me for that matter) worry about.  And no, Marxists ARE NOT better then Fascists.  They are one and the same.  Brothers and Sisters.  Birds of a Feather.

And they are responsible for more deaths in modern history then anyone.

Liberty my fellow Americans, THAT is what saves lives and makes a country prosperous and that can only be achieved by REDUCING the size and impact of government and ENFORCING the LIMITTED laws we (should) have.

One of those laws is immigration -- doesn't matter what country, color or race.

Finally, let me tell you about racial profiling, or more accurately REVERSE racial profiling.  I was born in the US and raised in Canada and I've known MANY a Canadian who wanted to emigrate to the USA....guess what?  Not so fast.

So, picture this:  my wife (ex now) who is Canadian but who married me earned her temporary green card after much pain and suffering after we got married and mistakenly moved her to NC.  We thought since we were married should could come down to the US to take care of the paperwork -- after all, we saw a lot of people from Mexico doing this so why not Canada?  We were then informed of our error.

Years later, still on a temp card (though we didn't think about it that way) we moved back to Canada for 4 years.  No big deal right?

When we returned to the US her card was expired so we went to file for a new one....they sent her packing....that's right MY WIFE!!!  My two kids and I -- young kids -- survived the FOUR MONTHS she was gone staying with friends in Canada trying to get PERMISSION to return to her HUSBAND and CHILDREN in the US......

And this is a GOOD CASE from Canada.

I've known Canadians who decided to come down and give the old "cash system" a try and guess what?  ICE sends them home.

Canadians are given the boot WHENEVER they are caught....Mexicans are not.

Who's being profiled because of race now?

Equal justice is the answer and you know it, so lets cut the bullcrap and decide:  DO YOU WANT EQUAL JUSTICE FOR ALL?

[dug]

I'm no law expert and even less of an authority on the constitution. I would think the racial profiling issue would stem from article 8 section B. Reasonable suspicion.

If you are swerving down the road the police have reasonable suspicion to believe you are intoxicated. If you are creeping around a window at 2 AM police have reasonable suspicion to think you may be a burglar. In this case looking hispanic may well pass for reasonable suspicion to be pulled over, interrogated, detained, and jailed, even if you do happen to be a legal US citizen. That's where I have a problem with the bill.

The constitutional argument arrises from the fact that it states in the constitution that Federal law alone controls immigration. I'm not saying that they haven't thoroughly botched the job.

Your example about the Canadians illustrates the problem quite well I think. We need the Mexican labor force, not the Canadians. I think everyone (both sides these days) is being duped. We are fighting the wrong enemy. Illegal immigration is destructive to our country, no doubt, but there are many ($$$$$$$$$$$$$) reasons why it has not been contained.

[StinkerBell]

We all ready have laws on the books that the Feds and others do not use. I am not sure what makes everyone think that more laws will make the Feds and others follow it? Seems like we are having more burdens placed on us under the guise of immigration reform laws. When did adding more laws ever really help get something done when laws all ready exist? Bureaucracy plain and simple. Something to appease the voters and waste more tax dollars on.

[Pox Eclipse]

This law will not reduce the number of illegal immigrants.  Most of them have been deported before, some more than once.  They are willing to risk their lives crossing a broiling desert, so I seriously doubt there is anything we can threaten them with that will prevent them from coming here.

Except...

Remove their jobs.  I say stiffen the penalties for employing illegals.  Seize outlaw employers' property: vehicles, real estate, machinery, bank accounts, lock, stock and barrel.  When the jobs are gone the illegals will deport themselves.

But that won't happen, because the truth is, the money interests don't want to lose cheap labor.  The economies in Southwest states would collapse if all the illegals went home, so there is a powerful incentive for good capitalists to make sure their representatives vote against anything that will make any meaningful change in immigration that might upset the sweet deal they have going.

In the mean time, cursing the foreigners keeps the masses busy so they won't notice who is making big money off the backs of undocumented workers.

[Txcowrancher]

OMG,  I agree completely with something Pox said.....its the end, we are doomed...

[glenn kangiser]

Ummm

Pox got it right......



The officer continued, "...and not that crappy Hawaiian proof of live birth paper.  Anybody can get one of those...... "

[peternap]

OMG,  I agree completely with something Pox said.....its the end, we are doomed...

He's either drinking...or I am

[Pox Eclipse]

He's either drinking...or I am

I'm not.  Even liberals can be in favor of strictly regulated immigration.  Illegal immigration is bad for American workers, and while I have sympathy for Mexicans who want to work to support their families, they have no right to American jobs. 

I have worked in the salmon canneries of Alaska, and can safely say there is no job Americans will not do for a fair wage, but they should not have to compete against those who are here illegally.

I do not, however, endorse violating the Constitution to achieve that end.  If we crack down on illegal employers, we won't have a problem with illegal immigrants, without sacrificing liberty and equality under the law.

[fishing_guy]

I was working with a hmong co-worker last night.  He was complaining about the Arizona law.  Well, actually, he was complaining about a governor candidate here in Minnesota who supports the new AZ law.  I disagreed with him civilly and we let it drop.

About an hour later, he was scanning the news.  He informed me that an AZ deputy shot their first illegal alien.  The headline was, something to the effect of:"Illegal alien shot by AZ deputy".

I said...and...

He looked at me, and then read deeper into the story...

It seems the illegal happened to be running drugs...and attempted to shoot the deputy.

I said, so the headline SHOULD have read, "Drug runner shot by AZ Deputy, who was returning fire"?

He was speechless....