How about some good news (or at least interesting)?

[John Raabe]

What if our current economic, social and environmental problems is signaling a major shift of social viewpoint? Something on the scale of coming out of the Middle (or Dark) ages into the Renascence, or from there into the Industrial Revolution. Could such a shift be in the works now, and what new "era" might it produce?

Probably slightly more likely than the world ending in 2012, this mind stretching and optimistic take on the world's problems is a blog post condensation of the the book, "The Empathic Civilization" by Jeremy Rifkin.

http://tinyurl.com/y8epkld

Consider it a mild antidote to the evening news.  

[rwanders]

  I guess psycho-babble is still alive and well for the 21st century----this mish mash of utopian mindlessness proves it. The last great ideological home for this kind of revisionist theory for "transforming human nature" was Marxism-Leninism----remember how that worked out for the world?

[RainDog]

Utopian? Sure. Increasing communication can bring people of like mind together, but it can just as easily, and often does, as we're seeing a lot of these days, bring to light incompatible basic ideological differences between groups, driving them further apart and stoking conflict.

[pagan]

RainDog,

I can see where you're coming from and have witnessed it first hand. Some people who live in ultra small houses like to condemn people who live in larger houses. People who live without electricity comment on how others cannot survive without "the grid." They try to push their lifestyle choices upon others and cry out how people don't care about goddess mother earth Gaia. "Live simply so others may simply live" is their mantra.

Our house is 640 square feet and we lived without electricity for four years until we got an off-grid solar system a year ago. We have a compost toilet, no running water, and our sole heating source is an old Waterford Stanley cook stove. Simple, I guess, because not too much can break. The flip side is everything is physically demanding and if something needs to be done, it MUST be done. When the compost buckets are full they MUST be dumped and cleaned or else we have no toilet. Wood MUST be brought in or we have no heat or cooking. Water MUST be brought in or else we have none. These things MUST be done regardless of whether we're sick, tired, or would rather be doing something else. Granted they don't take long to perform in and of themselves, but when you MUST dump and clean the toilet buckets and it's raining, or, like what happened a few weeks ago, it's snowing, zero degrees, and a severe wind blowing, it makes an already unpleasant task that much more demanding. Perhaps if we lived in a communal setting with several other couples it would not be as difficult because the work can be shared. But we live alone and every year it gets more tiring. I would not recommend this lifestyle to anybody. We chose to live this way as a test, and have determined it is not for us.

[muldoon]

I guess the article just rubs me the wrong way. 

His opening paragraph is full of errors and is looking at the situation completely wrong in my opinion.  When I start off reading an article and find logic errors at the beginning my red flag goes up and I tend to get critical of the rest of it.  With that, I mean no disrespect, but I question the authors ability to correctly interpret other things. 

Two spectacular failures, separated by only 18 months, marked the end of the modern era. In July 2008, the price of oil on world markets peaked at $147/ barrel, inflation soared, the price of everything from food to gasoline skyrocketed, and the global economic engine shut off. Growing demand in the developed nations, as well as in China, India, and other emerging economies, for diminishing fossil fuels precipitated the crisis. Purchasing power plummeted and the global economy collapsed. That was the earthquake that tore asunder the industrial age built on and propelled by fossil fuels. The failure of the financial markets two months later was merely the aftershock. The fossil fuel energies that make up the industrial way of life are sunsetting and the industrial infrastructure is now on life support.

We did not see an economic crash because we are running out of fossil fuels.  The financial markets did not crash because oil ran up in price.  The financial trouble was not born from oil, it was born from leverage and fraud.  It was clear that the market was broken and that credit markets were falling down in February 2007.  Many people myself included began taking steps *then* because where it was headed was clear.  By September 2007, the market took its first tumble as credit markets continued to dry and Q4 debt did not roll over as needed.  This caused the fed to do what it always does, inject more funds in an attempt to drive more lending.  Because the credit markets were broken THEN, those funds did not go to lending or securitization, they went into oil.  Oil was the bubble they created; not intentionally it's just where the money landed and grew.  Over the course of 2007-2008 it continued until oil hit 147 and the ramifications were immediately clear that continuing would destroy the economy faster than anything else.  The SEC and FIRC released changes to commodities market and flushed away alot of speculation.  In The fall of 2008 they removed hundreds of billions in funding in a huge net drain of liquidity and the markets crashed.  Oil crashed right with it back into a lower cost. 

here is my own post from May 2008 on this when it was occurring.
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=4606.0

The next paragraph has some issues that do not sit well with me either. 

In December 2009, world leaders from 192 countries assembled in Copenhagen to address the question of how to handle the accumulated entropy bill of the fossil fuel based industrial revolution-the spent C0₂ that is heating up the planet and careening the earth into a catastrophic shift in climate. After years of preparation, the negotiations broke down and world leaders were unable to reach a formal accord.

Neither the world's political or business leaders anticipated the economic debacle of July 2008, nor were they able to cobble together a sufficient plan for economic recovery in the months since. They were equally inept at addressing the issue of climate change, despite the fact that the scientific community warns that is poses the greatest threat to our species in its history, that we are running out of time, and that we may even be facing the prospect of our own extinction.

The scientific community is not in agreement on this.  I do not want to start a debate on this ~especially in this thread~ but the reason why Copenhagen was a dismal failure was because in the months leading up to it huge amounts of evidence of fraud in the data studies was released that questioned the rigor and even the results of the studies.  It seems people do not wish to be taxed on something that may not even be real, especially why they are freezing to death. 

As for the rest of the article, it tells a good story.  Peace love and global empathy and working together for the benefit of the earth and mankind.  I love it, but I question the feasibility of it.  When every attempt at any legislation is over a thousand pages long and filled with corruption and obvious trickery I again doubt the goodwill of those who will lead us to this utopia. 

Just as I think the opening paragraph is a misrepresentation of the truth, a twisted description to support a hidden agenda, I also think the second paragraph is a misrepresentation of the truth as well.  Again, to support an agenda.  My personal view of the leaders of the world is that they are not to be trusted, and certainly not when they promise hope and change for a better world, and a better earth. 

Based on those, I highly question this article and like I said, it just rubs me the wrong way. 

[RainDog]

pagancelt:

Geez, I'm dyin' to hear more about your situation. Is there a thread where you've posted more about all that on the forum somewhere?

[MountainDon]

pagan, thanks for your appraisal of your experiences in your living test. It could be eyeopening for others.

All the best to you and your family.

[pagan]

Sorry about hijacking this thread, I didn't mean to.

RainDog,

I don't have a specific thread, I just post my experiences where I think appropriate. Perhaps it would make a good thread topic for other people living in a similar manner to relate their experiences.

MountainDon,

You're welcome.

[OlJarhead]

What if our current economic, social and environmental problems is signaling a major shift of social viewpoint? Something on the scale of coming out of the Middle (or Dark) ages into the Renascence, or from there into the Industrial Revolution. Could such a shift be in the works now, and what new "era" might it produce?

Probably slightly more likely than the world ending in 2012, this mind stretching and optimistic take on the world's problems is a blog post condensation of the the book, "The Empathic Civilization" by Jeremy Rifkin.

http://tinyurl.com/y8epkld

Consider it a mild antidote to the evening news.  

  I have to remind myself to keep quite and bite my tongue but decided to add: 

While Florida experiences it's coldest winter in 136 years and snow buries Europe in record levels, the Free Market system continues to be blamed for the failed regulation and control by a government long divorced from Free market principles yet man continues to march towards  "Utopia" all the while not realizing he's marching blindly towards scourge of mankind -- racism, Fascism, Marxism, Socialism, Tyranny, and the like.  Becuase only the most enlightened seem to realize that man kind will forever fail to be good to one another and those who wish to save all of mankind remain too naive to realize the measures they put in place to protect man from himself will only eventually guarantee that a new tyrant will arise and once again destroy environments and enslave the masses.

But then, what do we care? 

[John Raabe]

I think I need to explain what I found interesting in the article that started this thread (1st post).

The author is not a great or careful writer. There are lots bones to pick on his understanding of how and why things have happened in the past. Still, when the perspective is broad enough, we may be willing to jump over the speed bumps, look beyond a quick political judgment, and consider the bigger picture.

So, consider: 100,000 years ago or so, man stopped evolving physically. All the evolution since has been in our minds and stored social systems or culture. Each culture has a worldview and set of rules and expectations that are unique. Most people only experience one culture in their lifetime and can't understand that the world could be seen any other way. That would be like asking a fish to discuss water. Living for a year with the Inuit or Kurds will break this cultural chauvinism but this is not now possible for most people.

At a larger scale than individual cultures the author defines the longer period eras that force evolution of individual cultures (Hunter/gather cultures, Middle Ages, First Industrial Revolution, etc.) These eras can be defined by the communication technology (oral, written, newspapers, etc.). I would add the technology of warfare as another big determinate, but let's move on.

Right now our world is quickly being networked with an internet communication grid and an energy grid. Both of these are evolving into much the same thing with inputs and outputs decentralized and available to all. The author looks at this and speculates on the type of cultural era this might be previewing. Any of us could do the same as no credentials are needed!

I think I agree with the author that a combination of local communities connected to a much closer and larger world community of like minded interests will replace our outmoded nation state model that evolved in a much earlier era. Look at China, where you have a powerful technocratic dictatorship encouraging great capitalistic expansion while supporting a communistic ideology from the 19th century.  Or look closer to home where an entrenched bureaucracy powered by corporate funding fights enormous faux battles to enact legislation predetermined by the vested parties, all the while cloaking this in the individualistic and democratic idealism of the 17th century enlightenment.

In both cases the foundational idea of the culture no longer fits! Getting that in sync is the underlying BIG PROBLEM that we are in the process of evolving a solution to. This is important because, when it comes, that solution will cascade quickly through all cultures and replace them with an empowered and newly inspired worldview.

Personally, I don't expect us to lose our self-centered survival instinct, that is far too deep in our wiring. But, self-interest can be modified and made to serve the larger culture when the idea is big enough and societal need is great. Think of the great armies of the nation state - where men and women put their lives on the line for a cultural (or religious) idea.

Like the invisible hand of Adam Smith (the foundational idea of capitalism), self-interest can sometimes support larger structures than just our own narrow desires. World trade is an example of modified self-interest. The invention of money (gold coins you could bite) has come a long way. It is now a faith-based system of computer digits.

Modified self-interest will likely be one of the tools of our new evolutionary path. This is in addition to the workings of our empathy circuits - the author's main point. These circuits are hardwired into our brains (see link below).

[John Raabe]

Here's an interesting TED talk on current brain research related to this issue of empathy, human culture and its development.

A neurological modification of the human brain (about 100k years ago) involving "mirror neurons" allows us to experience what others are feeling. This is also the basis of "phantom" limb feelings that amputees often experience.

This evolution in the brain is likely where our path diverges from the Neanderthals and this tiny rewiring formed the foundation for all human learning, art and civilization.

http://www.channels.com/episodes/show/8230194/TEDTalks-VS-Ramachandran-The-neurons-that-shaped-civilization-Vilayanur-Ramachandran-2009-

So, you big squishy lunk, you're likely not as cold and hard core as you think!

[glenn kangiser]

I have not evolved that far, John....

It seems that is the motor of the learn by watching process also.

[OlJarhead]

Interesting thoughts John.

The first that comes to mind is solar flare caused EMP that takes out that electronic communications media and whammo, back in the stone age.

I don't think man has evolved at all in the last 100 thousand years (actually, recently there have been some interesting finds that put modern man back at least 150,000 years and potentially 350,000 to 500,000 years but I digress).  We like to think so, sure but when really looking at man and woman today i see the same creature that was running around in the woods with spears 25,000 years ago.

Consider that man could calculate the circumference of the Earth to within ONE YARD 10,000 years ago...yes TEN THOUSAND years ago.  Sure there are some (probably not that many) who could do that today, but take them out into the wood, give them a stick and ask them to do it....

Technology has evolved in the last 100,000 years and that's made it appear that man has, but look at most great developments and you see they are most often created for the purpose of hell, death and destruction.

Man is a barbarian at heart.

I know this isn't the sort of uplifting response we like today, but i do not have faith in man kinds ability to preserve himself without freedom (Liberty), religion (morals) and the right to property.

The real problem?  Too many people.  What will we do when there are 1 billion people in the USA alone and we can barely feed them?  Beats me, but they aint making anymore land and a pray the new enlightened gubermint doesn't decide mines better served for the greater good and all that.

Erik

[poppy]

Rifkin may be a little "out there", but the conversation needs to be started.

He sees the end of the nation state and uses the European Union as an example, but there's no question that self-interested nation states will continue to rule for awhile, and the US may be left behind.

John Raabe mentioned modified self-interest and it reminded me of an editorial by Thomas L. Friedman in yesterday's paper.  I couldn't find a link to it, so I will have to quote some exerpts.

The title of Friedman's opinion is "Keeping up with China's emerging 'Green Leap Forward'.  He offered a quote from C.H. Tung, "China was asleep during the Industrial Revolution.  She was just waking during the Information Technology Revolution.  She intends to participate fully in the Green Revolution."  Talk about your modified self-interests.

He quotes Intel's Andy Grove as saying that companies come to "strategic inflection points," where the fundamentals of a business change and they either make the hard decision to invest in a down cycle and take a more promising trajectory or do nothing and wither.

Friedman claims that the US is at a strategic inflection point as far as the Energy Technology revolution is concerned and China is going to leave us behind.

He says that China is creating homegrown energy sources that won't pollute themselves to death.  He sites a couple of examples: He says that in the last year alone, so many new solar panel makers emerged in China that the price of solar power has fallen from roughly 59 cents a kilowatt hour to 16 cents.  (I don't know how good that is)

He says China is expected to build 50 new nuclear reactors by 2020 and the rest of the world combined might build 15.  We in the US can't even agree to build one, let alone 50.

And he claims that it will all work better and faster if the US and China work together.  His concluding statement is "We can't afford to be asleep with an invigorated China wide awake."

And here we sit in the all powerful industrial/military complex that Ike warned us about after WWII.

An empathetic world wide interconnected humanity may be what's needed to combat mis-placed self-interest.

[OlJarhead]

We don't build Nuclear or Clean Coal plants becuase a minority of environmentalists make a lot of noise.  Just as we don't solve real problems like synthetic estrogen in the water supply (doesn't come from the plants they attack but rather the birth control pills they take).  We will lag behind and paint glossy pictures of what the communists are doing to try to quell the masses.  Besides, if they are dumb enough to buy it we can establish our own politburo and then maybe once we're all socialists we can make the UN the ruling authority over all -- Muhahahaha

China also built about 1 dirty coal plant a week for a couple years at least...they were at two a week for a while but we don't like to talk about the filth, pollution, waste, human suffering etc that is 100 if not 1000 fold in China becuase, well, look how great their system is and how forward thinking they are!  Never mind those rotting people in the sewers!

Don't kid yourself.

Furthermore, one reason China makes solar panels more so then us is the solar panel manufacturers fight so many EPA regs here in the US it's next to impossible to build them.  Another is we're too stupid to realize that unchecked Union power has destroyed the US workers ability to compete with the world.  We're done we just don't know it yet.  Hell, why pay you $25/hr to watch a network when I can pay $2 a day to get Rashid Pattel to do it in India (no offense to anyone from there)?  If the Unions weren't forcing businesses bankrupt then perhaps we could pay you $15 instead and you'd survive as soon as you put down the flyer telling you about the great financing to buy the 10 foot TV you must have.

We American's are lost.  Most don't even know how to garden anymore and storing food for a rainy day is looked on as stupid.  We also seem to think a credit card is used for grocery shopping and shoes were meant to wear out in 3 months.  Heck, my wife bought socks from Wall Mart the other day and I told her to take the crap back!  They were so called sport socks that were thinner then my dress socks for crying out loud...but people buy them religiously swearing they are saving money all the while spending more to get less (becuase they have to buy them several times over to get the same usage).

We're stupid and arrogant and destined to either stop this nonsense and get back to being American's (that means dump the socialism -- it's anti-American folks) or losing our country all together and joining the rest of the world in which case the elite will get richer and we poor slubs will start living in the slums and dreaming of drinking wodka and smoking unfiltered cigarettes becuase hey, dying young be so bad after all.

We will fall on our own sword becuase of human arrogance -- but that's just it isn't it?

At the rate we're moving forward we'll be a 3rd world country in no time....but then some would like that.

Sadly, the glowing articles rarely look at the underside of the belly where the beast hides its weak spot.

We're broke, barbaric, and the average Joe Six Pack is ready to tar and feature DC becuase we no longer have a representative government but rather some new fashionable aristocracy that masquerades as 'democratic'.  Health Care is a perfect example, as well as bailouts, tarp and all the rest that the American people DID NOT and DO NOT want -- but we will get it becuase the King and Queen have deemed it so -- for our own good of course. (and you can choose which king and queen since Bush and Obama aren't any different).

Ever noticed that the poor can't hunt in the Kings forest anymore.  Just another example of how the new Aristocracy controls its subjects.  Give them charity (food stamps) and tell them to re-elect us and they will be happy, but don't you dare go hunt in my forest you poacher you!

The poor can't afford to hunt -- just take a moment to think about that.

We silly people who still beleive in Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness (or Property) will be swallowed by the 'we know what's good for you' crowd and eventually we'll see Tyranny rise again.  It's human nature.

But I'm probably just one of those flat earthers who hasn't evolved

What's funny about that, is that it was the establishment that screamed  "The Earth Is Flat" back then....just as they are the ones screaming "Man Made Global Warming" or "Redistribution of Wealth" or "Health Care for all" Utopian, socialist, progressive nonsense.

Sorry for the rant, I don't buy any of this for a minute.  To me at best it's harmless (though frustrating) Utopian ideology at worst it's the beginning of a very scary time when Fascism, Socialism, Marxism and all it's ugly brothers and sisters will scour the earth and rape, pillage and burn (as they always have)...but I suppose it will also reduce the human population in vast numbers since most human beings are so naive they will beleive we've evolved past the beasties we really are

But I digress...

I pray we wisen up, ditch the 'ain't China great' nonsense and tell the unions to shut up and sit down (by the way, unions have a place, but the power they have today makes them worse then the big businesses they hate so -- there needs to be balance and we don't have it anymore) as well as the environmentalists (they haven't done much good yet anyway) and begin in earnest to put this country back on track and out front.

We can do it, but the changes we need to make most won't stomach -- like excepting that a mans home is his castle (don't come in my house and tell me anything unless I ask you too) -- and that we do indeed have rights that no congress, no man or body of men can take away or grant.  Our rights are endowed by our creator.  And don't give me that "I'm not religious" crap -- I've yet to meet one human being that isn't, they just aren't smart enough to see what their religion is and assume I mean 'Christian' when I say religion which I most certainly do not (ever heard of Hiram Abif -- nuff said).

We can do much, but you lot are proof of that!  Making cabins with your bear hands, designing, planning, hammering away for FUN, for enjoyment, to fulfill yourselves and there is nothing better then that!  But it proves that we CAN survive and be good and decent people and do not need a body of men to tell us how to do so.  We are enterprising (John is a Capitalist and should be proud of that -- I am), smart, social (important) and capable.  Let's not throw our lives away looking across the fence saying.....

The Grass is greener on the other side. 

It's only greener becuase of the sludge of pollution spilling over it by the man killing and oppressing socialist governments of the rest of the world.

Rant over

[pagan]

China is so polluted because it allows companies to cut costs while producing all of the plastic crap westerns "must" have, which means polluting more. I don't like nuclear power, having worked at an atomic power station, and I find the notion of "clean coal" farcical. The flip side of that coin is I also understand we need electricity, so if we must have coal fired plants they should be made to burn coal as efficiently and cleanly as possible. Nuclear should not even be considered, and that's based on personal experience.

I honestly have no religion or religious beliefs. Too much human suffering has come at the hands of so called "charitable" religious people. I look at the current debacles in Iraq and Afghanistan as "religious" wars because G.W. Bush stated God had made him president to combat Islam. If someone truly believes that God wants him to do something he'll find any way to justify his actions, after all, he is on a mission from God.

There is little difference between the Democrats and Republicans, they lie, cheat, steal, and generally screw the pooch daily, if not hourly. As a result of these feelings I do not vote because it's a total waste of my time. The only way we'll get any real change is to remove every politician, bureaucrat and staff member. This also means the so called revolving door between public and private entities must be closed so we don't have men like Cheney moving from high paid jobs at corporations into regulatory positions or high elected offices where they can exert influence to aid their former employers and then return to those employers after their public "service" is finished.

[OlJarhead]

China is so polluted because it allows companies to cut costs while producing all of the plastic crap westerns "must" have, which means polluting more. I don't like nuclear power, having worked at an atomic power station, and I find the notion of "clean coal" farcical. The flip side of that coin is I also understand we need electricity, so if we must have coal fired plants they should be made to burn coal as efficiently and cleanly as possible. Nuclear should not even be considered, and that's based on personal experience.

I honestly have no religion or religious beliefs. Too much human suffering has come at the hands of so called "charitable" religious people. I look at the current debacles in Iraq and Afghanistan as "religious" wars because G.W. Bush stated God had made him president to combat Islam. If someone truly believes that God wants him to do something he'll find any way to justify his actions, after all, he is on a mission from God.

You might be right about Nuclear power but you might not.  Just because you worked in a plant doesn't make you the foremost Physicist.  I live very near to Hanford (if you don't know where that is you are not qualified to answer) but that doesn't make me an expert either.

And for the record, I don't like the idea at all – it terrifies me what Nuclear power could cause.  When I took Nuclear, Biological and Chemical warfare training (several times) I always came back to "Man is a barbarian".  And he is.

As for clean coal, I'd suggest that's something that warrants a serious look instead of this crap we're dealing with today – all hail green energy (while we die of mercury poisoning – and if you don't understand that reference then your priests haven't let you in that secret yet and you need not reply).



Sadly this emphasizes my point exactly.  For example, you say that GW Bush "stated God had made him president to combat Islam" as if it were fact, yet it's never actually been proven, so clearly your religion is one that involves a hatred for someone based on mere rumors.  Amazing how easy it is to peel back the onion when one begins to type this stuff – you take it on faith that the Daily Kos or whatever your bible is, wouldn't lie to you and assume, based on that faith that it's the truth.  Your faith proves my point.

Try being objective it's refreshing.

You are religious; you just fail to read between the lines of my tirade and in doing so prove many of my points.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_W._Bush#Misquotations   Disputed  ----  I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan. And I did, and then God would tell me, George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq... And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East. And by God I'm gonna do it.
According to Palestinian negotiator Nabil Shaath, said by Bush to him, apparently in the same June 2003 meeting, as reported by BBC News [103]. Shaath later clarified this with "We understood that he was illustrating [in his comments] his strong faith and his belief that this is what God wanted." [104], i.e. Shaath didn't take Bush's statement literally.
Denied by White House spokesperson Scott McClellan, October 6, 2005. Denied also by Mahmoud Abbas, who attended the meeting in question. Abbas said "This report is not true. I have never heard President Bush talking about religion as a reason behind the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. President Bush has never mentioned that in front of me on any occasion and specifically not during my visit in 2003." [105].

There is little difference between the Democrats and Republicans, they lie, cheat, steal, and generally screw the pooch daily, if not hourly. As a result of these feelings I do not vote because it's a total waste of my time. The only way we'll get any real change is to remove every politician, bureaucrat and staff member. This also means the so called revolving door between public and private entities must be closed so we don't have men like Cheney moving from high paid jobs at corporations into regulatory positions or high elected offices where they can exert influence to aid their former employers and then return to those employers after their public "service" is finished.

Whoa Nelly!  I almost agree with you here until you went off onto some elitist crazy tangent there!  What are you?  A Nazi?

This also means the so called revolving door between public and private entities must be closed so we don't have men like Cheney moving from high paid jobs at corporations into regulatory positions or high elected offices where they can exert influence to aid their former employers and then return to those employers after their public "service" is finished.

Put down the "Halliburton is Evil and Cheney is the devil" magazine for a minute friend and think about what you are saying.  You, like so many who wish to control free men, don't like Cheney (for some most likely misguided reason) I get it.  But what right do you, or any free man or woman have to prevent him or anyone else from running for office, serving in the public sector or working on the board of the biggest most evil (or good) company in the world.

None.  What you propose is fascism and we saw what that resulting in – no thanks bub.  I'll take freedom any day.

What you fail to see is that you've been lead around by the nose by some Daily Kos writer or Alex Jones like preacher (maybe of the religion of Green Energy or Man Made Global Warming) and you lost touch with what freedom is.

Liberty is the freedom to fail.  You have the freedom to choose not to vote (thus failing in your own way) but in the meantime the country is being held hostage by both parties (we agree here) and is in desperate need of 'we the people' to come back to her rescue by insisting we actually read the damn constitution and live by it.

Now is that so hard?  No.

[RainDog]

pagancelt: What in your experience turned you off of nuclear power? I ask because I have an acquaintance in Houston who worked as a reactor operator in Virginia way back in the 70's, and now is at South Texas Project in Bay City, and he's completely pro-nuclear power. I've attempted playing Devil's advocate against him a few times after digging up whatever I could that discounts nukes from the web, and he blew it all out of the water right off the top of his head. Makes quite a case for it.

[pagan]

OlJarHead.

I never stated I was a physicist. All I related was based on my experience.

I also took the NBC class, yup, it's scary.

I understand mercury poisoning, why are you so constant with religious connotations?

This is from a book on George Bush..."Bush said to James Robinson: 'I feel like God wants me to run for President. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen... I know it won't be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it.'" Again you bring up religious connotations...

I am not religious, but with such keen insights into my psyche I recommend you enter the psychiatric field.

Not even going there toots.

What I don't like about Cheney is he clearly used his political potion to enrich his former employer.

Again, the religion. I don't read Daily Kos or Alex Jones, find another whipping boy.

You can view my choice to not vote in any way that makes you feel good. But you need to get off your high horse.

Goodbye.

RainDog,

I was contaminated by radioactive particles.

[ScottA]

I was sitting near the reactor compartment (not in it) one night and I could feel this kinda warm glow. Almost like sitting next to a fire. Was on an SSBN. Suposedly the area I was in was perfectly safe. Point being that we have no way of knowing if nuke power is safe other than what they tell us. And they haven't got a real good reputation for being honest.

[RainDog]

RainDog,

I was contaminated by radioactive particles.

So what super-powers did you get? Like jumping real far or having special thoughts or what?

Oh, I know. You'll claim to be an ordinary man. I know the drill.

[OlJarhead]

OlJarHead.

I never stated I was a physicist. All I related was based on my experience.

I also took the NBC class, yup, it's scary.

I understand mercury poisoning, why are you so constant with religious connotations?

This is from a book on George Bush..."Bush said to James Robinson: 'I feel like God wants me to run for President. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen... I know it won't be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it.'" Again you bring up religious connotations...

I am not religious, but with such keen insights into my psyche I recommend you enter the psychiatric field.

Not even going there toots.

What I don't like about Cheney is he clearly used his political potion to enrich his former employer.

Again, the religion. I don't read Daily Kos or Alex Jones, find another whipping boy.

You can view my choice to not vote in any way that makes you feel good. But you need to get off your high horse.

Goodbye.

RainDog,

I was contaminated by radioactive particles.

Hence my distaste for the stuff -- I was just making a point.

As for Cheney, hopefully you then feel that way about Clinton and his crew too since they also worked tirelessly to line the pockets of Brown & root -- er, Haliburton.  It's all of them and that was one of the things I was trying to point out in a off the wall sort of way.  Too often I hear the things you posted from people that will willingly look the other way as long as their team is the ones doing the dirty deeds.

Sorta like those who screamed  "Bush lied and people died" but won't even consider the implications of the lies Obama has already spewed forth in his first year in office.  Some of us didn't like the things Bush was doing and don't like the things going on today but we're labeled all kinds of things by those in favor of the current 'team'...it's like foot ball.

As for religion, I think you missed the point.  My bro is religious about his atheism...it's a matter of perspective.  So when someone tells me they aren't, I just look for the thing they are religious about becuase it's there for those willing to look -- for example, those preaching the destruction of man kind due to co2 emissions and global warming are as religious as the fundamental Christians they often poo poo... indeed, when faced with evidence that clearly demonstrates they can't be right they simply ignore it and go back to praying at the almighty alter of green energy

I'm sorry to hear about the radiation exposure, I hate the idea of the stuff -- but unlike many I don't dismiss it outright.  I live near Hanford and if anyone lives in 'the danger zone' I think I'd qualify -- seeings how there were 12 reactors (maybe more actually) within 45 miles of my house....were becuase now they are mostly just empty and surrounded by pools of radioactive sludge -- ok tanks of radioactive sludge....  I'd hate to live down river!

[poppy]

Seems this thread has strayed a little from "some good news". 

Sorry John if I have contributed to it. 

[pagan]

Scott,

We used to go around and shut off all of the detectors whenever something super "hot" was being removed from the core. Incidentally I was contaminated at the fuel pool. When I walked out to the sensors linking the hot and cold sides of the plant every single one went off at the same time. Just as fast as the technician could reset them, they alarmed. I kept telling him it was me and he said there was no way I could be "hot" enough to alarm every sensor from fifteen feet away. He was proven wrong pretty damn quick. I have to get checked for cancer ever other year. So far nothing bad.

RainDog,

I like that. Yup, I'm "normal."

OlJarHead,

I feel the same way about Clinton/Gore, and even Obama/Lieberman. How many people died in Clinton's various bombing campaigns?

Looks like we're simply differing on what religion is. Although I can see your point of view, I stand fast that I have no religion. I read the literature from both sides of the global warming debate and find some level of truth, as well as distortions, from each. Where does that leave me?

Here, let me give you some insight.

I do not believe global warming is 100% human caused, but I also feel we cannot have done what we've done since the industrial revolution without causing some damage to our planet. Therefore I see all of these so called green technologies being pushed by our elected "officials" as yet another way for the federal government to funnel public money to private companies. I have solar panels, yet I don't think most people will be able to live within the confines of what solar electric can reasonably supply. I don't think nuclear is "green" or we can truly have "clean coal," but what are our alternatives?

Personally, I got my own solar electric system and am working to extricate myself from the "wage slave" system. Although these changes are impacting my life, I know they will have no impact on the global scene. Hell, my actions won't even have any real impact in my own town. Why do I continue? Because it's what I want to do, not because I'm trying to save the Earth, or to reduce my carbon footprint...insert latest reason in vogue here...I live the way I do because I don't want to be part of the "system" any longer.

Poppy,

Actually I think it's mostly my fault. I'll stop now.

[OlJarhead]

Pagancelt I think we're far closer to each others views then first appeared.  My hats off to you sir