Author Topic: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story  (Read 180099 times)

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Offline dug

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #50 on: December 11, 2009, 04:45:04 PM »
Quote
I like your plan, considerations but I was thinking French doors in livingroom that could open out onto a deck...

I kind of like that idea too, but the deck would be on the south side. Here in the Southwest, a deck or too much glass on the west side is unbearable!


Offline dug

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #51 on: December 11, 2009, 04:55:55 PM »
Thanks OkieJohn for your thoughts as well- would really like to see that sketch up. I have attempted a couple of those programs and failed miserably.
One of the ideas you had I had done similar in my drawing on page 2. Considerations magically moved some of my stuff around. (How in the heck did you do that by the way???)

Offline considerations

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #52 on: December 11, 2009, 05:44:11 PM »
"How in the heck did you do that by the way???"

Photoshop - I use it for making drawing, posters, cards, brochures, displays, planning quilts and fixing my photos.

Offline considerations

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #53 on: December 11, 2009, 06:07:30 PM »
I like your Airstream type trailers with the aircraft landing decks on top.   Would make a great guest house.

Offline Sassy

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #54 on: December 11, 2009, 07:36:32 PM »
Quote
I like your plan, considerations but I was thinking French doors in livingroom that could open out onto a deck...

I kind of like that idea too, but the deck would be on the south side. Here in the Southwest, a deck or too much glass on the west side is unbearable!

See, then that would give you an excuse for maybe a deck with shed roof or something to keep the house cooler & a nice area to go out in the evenings or mornings or whenever   ;D
http://glennkathystroglodytecabin.blogspot.com/

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Offline lobster

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2009, 05:52:19 AM »
I really hate corner cabinets in kitchens, those lazy susan base cabinets are a pain...

two suggestions.
1) put the electric range close to a corner - say 5 inches away, so the oven door can open past the drawer pulls etc on the opposite side. install your pressure tank or low boy hot water heater in that corner under the counter top. these items may then be easily accessed by sliding out the electric range. this also saves the cost of a corner cabinet. the counter top is held up in that area by cleats on the back & side walls, and ugly plywood (with a large access hole cut in it) along the edge next to the electric range. the front of the "corner cabinet" - the only part visible - can be made from two pieces of good-looking wood nailed together to make a 5" x 5" corner.

2) use the space for a corner sink. the sink & trap pipes take up most of the room anyway. the remainder is efficiently used by a simple shelf for cleaning supplies, etc.

Offline HomeschoolMom

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Offline dug

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #57 on: February 05, 2010, 07:07:06 AM »
I have not updated for awhile so I thought I'd post some of our progress, such as it is. We have had a lot of bad weather and I've spent ton's of time stringing tarps (in vain- a tarp is no match for 40 mph winds) and cleaning snow/ slush/ rain off the deck. My plywood subfloor is suffering.  It's tough being a weekend warrior.

Raising the first wall was a milestone for sure. One thing nice about living in a small community- a few phone calls and 20 minutes later we had plenty of help.

Notice the one with the bum back (me) is the only one using proper lifting technique.



A 30 ft. wall is a piece of cake with 4 helpers



Grandpa brought a potato gun he made for a little diversion. About 40 or 50 psi will shoot a potato over 300 ft! Works great with snowballs too.




I laid out the top and bottom plates using a 3/4 in. block at the end. I love learning little tricks like that!



framing a window header



the end of another long day- One more wall to go!





My brother came to help for a few days. Here he is helping set the ridge board. If you have never crawled on top of 3 sections of scaffolding you will feel like you just joined the circus, unless you're a rock climber (or maybe you were in the circus). It gets easier after awhile



Ridge board set. That was a lot of fun- not!



The next day it rained non stop all day, the kind of rain that is only 3 or 4 degrees away from snow- miserable. I probably would have just stayed inside and drank coffee but my brother wouldn't have it.



It didn't seem like we got a whole lot done in 2 days but as I said, the weather was horrible most of the time. Also, it seemed like 70 % of the time was spent just figuring and measuring. We used an on line calculator (blocklayer) for the rafters. the first pair were not quite right so we re-measured and found the wall width was about 1/4 in. wider than we inputted, mostly due to the osb swelling from all the rain. We re-calculated and cut 2 more, and they could not have fit more perfect. So perfect in fact that I did not bother to check the overhang until we had several pairs placed. I noticed it looked like more than the 18 inches I was after and found it measured about 25 inches! Oh well, I'll have to snap a line and re-cut them later, which is what I was going to do in the first place, but then decided to avoid having to make all the cuts in the air. I'll have to go back and see how I screwed up the calculation.

There is no overhang on the first 18 ft. in the front of the building because I am going to lay rafters for the front porch right on the top plate.

I got a few more rafters placed by myself yesterday, the weather being much nicer.





And that is where it stands at present. I got a few hours so I'm going out to cut the rest of the rafters. Still trying to decide weather to sheath it or use purlins. I have this habit of putting off major design decisions until the last minute.

I have a bunch of simpson brackets (H 1) that I was going to use to tie the rafters to the walls. I want to put them on the inside wall but am unsure how how, or if that would affect laying the drywall. They are only about 1/16 in. thick. I've done very little sheet rock work and it's been many years since that. Anyone know anything about that?



 










Offline Redoverfarm

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #58 on: February 05, 2010, 07:35:01 AM »
Dug working in the winter does have it's challenges.  But it appears that you are making good progress though.  

They say that hindsight is 20/20 but Advantex subfloor would have been a good choice for someone who does not have the time to donate full speed to get the roof on.

On the scaffolding it is a little hairy for the first hour or so and then you get use to it.  My mom would cringe with me climbing the equivlent of yours but after a while she said you look just like a squirrel going up there. You just acclimate yourself after a while.

Recutting the rafter tails shouldn't pose any great threat. You have the scaffolding so I would urge you to use it rather than trying to battle a ladder and saw together.  I assume you will want to tie the overhang into the porch so I would probably wait until you get that portion done to know exactly where they will fall to tie them in.

If you think it will some time before you are able to get it completely dried in I would suggest that you invest in some Titaninum Felt.  When installed correctly (button nails and required overlap) it will be good for at least a year in my experience. Yes it is a little costly but considering the expense that you have laid out so far now and in the future it would be money well spent.

The clips usually do not pose any problems with the drywall. More rigid material like T&G is a little harder.  More problems with attaching the drywall (screws) at the location of the plates.  But if you mark the ceiling drywall at the location of the clips then make reference to those when working the walls.    
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 08:03:57 AM by Redoverfarm »

Offline Pine Cone

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2010, 07:03:37 PM »
Looking good so far!

My advice on tarps and wind is to think like the Lillipution's trying to tie Gulliver down.  Lots and lot and lots and lots of ropes and try and minimize slack so the tarp can't gain speed and snap in the wind.  Tarps and wind have been my bane for most of my cabin project. 

I recommend using a rope at every grommet hole and then using the old boy scout tie-a-rope-around-a-small-rock technique between each pair of grommets.   

Good luck with your winter construction!  I'm really glad I back working on inside projects again...

Offline poppy

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #60 on: February 08, 2010, 08:59:41 AM »
Nice progress.  Keep asking the questions.  I don't have any answers, but the other folks here do, so I check in to get the answers.  8)

Love the potato gun.  It would be a hit with my grandkids.  [cool]

Offline MountainDon

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #61 on: February 08, 2010, 09:29:22 AM »
This, is a spud gun!!    ;D ;D



« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 09:45:44 AM by MountainDon »
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

Offline dug

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #62 on: March 07, 2010, 07:30:09 AM »
Here are the latest updates on our cabin build.

Seems like I'm just inching along, like the tortoise, but in my defense the weather has been dogging me big time. I can't locate any official records but I'd bet that February was one of the wettest ones in awhile, and so far March has not been a whole lot better. Raining again as I type.

After my brother left I managed to get the rest of the rafters up myself, it was not as bad as I thought it would be.
This will be our view looking East.



Trimming the supports for the barge rafter. At first the heights made me pretty nervous, but after awhile you sort of forget that your that high up.
I'm not sure if that is a good thing or not.



I notched the end rafters on the ground



Framing the dormer. It took me awhile to figure that one out.



My brother came here again for a few days to help me get some roof sheathing up. He is a real motivator and non stop worker. After 2 days I was feeling it.





Looking at these photos, I realize I am always wearing the same clothes. I guess it cuts down on laundry time and usually it is only me who has to put up with myself.

here are a couple of shots from the interior, rafter ties are temporary and will be replaced with rough sawn 4 by 8's soon.





This is the most recent photo. I figured out a way to get the OSB sheets up myself after my brother left, but it was not easy.



These are the 4 by 8's I picked up for the rafter ties and loft beams. I had to drive over 300 miles (RT) to get them so I hope it will be worth it.
When I got there they told me they did not have any 20 footers, but they sold me 24 footers for the same price since I had called ahead. I'll have to think of a good home for the 4 foot leftovers.



O.K., so this is my question for the day- How to attach the 4 by 8 rafter ties? Bolts with nuts I assume. What size? How many? What pattern?

I was kicking around the idea of using concrete anchor bolts, they are much less expensive than comparable bolts and I thought I could notch the beam to hold the J part of the bolt, in order to keep it from turning as I tighten it.

Sound feasible?








Offline Redoverfarm

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #63 on: March 07, 2010, 07:49:49 AM »
Dug while others may aggree/disagree you have two options on the bolts.  Carriage or lag.  3/8-1/2".  I would choose the 3/8" lag for ease of installation and probably 4" in length.  Washered and inserted from the rafter side at least two per end.  There is nothing to prevent you from driving an additional 16d in there as well.  That is the method that I used.   Just remember that when it comes time to trim out the ceiling with your wall covering that you will probably want to use some scrap material to trim out around the 4X8" to attach your covering material.

Offline Don_P

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #64 on: March 07, 2010, 03:31:28 PM »
Who killed the smurf on your sawhorses  ;D? When one of us gets seriously blue from a chalkline incident "you've been smurfed".
For the tie connections we need to know the amount of thrust being resisted, then its a matter of making a connection that exceeds that force. Are the ties going to be down on the plate or raised and if so how much? How far apart are the ties spaced? What is the snow load for your area?



Offline dug

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #65 on: March 07, 2010, 03:57:39 PM »
Quote
For the tie connections we need to know the amount of thrust being resisted, then its a matter of making a connection that exceeds that force. Are the ties going to be down on the plate or raised and if so how much? How far apart are the ties spaced? What is the snow load for your area?

The ties will be at the plate.

4 foot spacing, though I am still trying to decide if I can get away with an 7 or 8 foot spacing where the entry and stairs are, to open it up a little.

I am not sure of the official snow load but it is not much. We got a lot this year and there was never more than 4 or 5 inches on the ground at one time, and that usually melted by noon.

Quote
Who killed the smurf on your sawhorses  ? When one of us gets seriously blue from a chalkline incident "you've been smurfed".

No gruesome smurf incident, I'm just a sloppy painter. ;)


Offline Don_P

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #66 on: March 07, 2010, 06:39:32 PM »
The default would probably be 20 psf live load + 10 psf dead load X 10' horizontal span X 4' spacing=1200 lbs vertical load. Assuming half is supported on the wall and the pitch is 12/12 the horizontal thrust would be 600 lbs. If you are shooting .131's in the gun it would take 8 of them minimum in each end (many small fasteners in wood is actually better than fewer large ones). 2 bolts at 5/8" or 3 bolts at 1/2". 3/8" lags, I'd use 5, you'll need a minimum of 3" into the tie.

For bolts and lags stay at least 4 diameters from the rafter bottom edge and at least 7 diameters from the tie end. Stay at least 1.5 diamters from the tie top and bottom edges and try to keep everybody at least 4 diameters apart. It gets crowded fast but I think there's room for any of the options above.

Mixing fasteners; its fine to nail something up and then bolt it as long as either the bolts or nails are capable of resisting the full load by themselves. Fasteners of different types do not "help" one another. A bolt or lag pretty much takes load right now where a nail deforms a bit before taking full load. If you skimp on one type thinking the other will help, what happens is the bolts fail and then the nails fail.

The thrust is linear, at 8' tie spacing (you just left the codebook) the thrust is double and connections double. If you nail, I often have to clamp it tight to get things really drawn together, don't be afraid to pull the trigger extra and don't blow 'em outta sight   :).

Offline Redoverfarm

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #67 on: March 08, 2010, 04:22:35 AM »
Don I guess a picture is worth a thousand words.  I had read Dugs post but didn't open to view the photographs until later.  When I think of Collar ties my mind see them at the top 1/3 rather than at the bottom plate such as a wall tie.  Yes my attachment is a little lean but for the upper 1/3 it would probably be apprioate don't you think.  d*  In fact some builders have been known to just use 1X6 for this application as the pressure is not as great as the bottom section.  Sorry Dug for any sub-standard advice. 

Offline dug

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #68 on: March 08, 2010, 04:38:05 AM »
Redoverfarm- I don't consider any of the advice I have received on this forum sub standard, I have learned a great deal from everyone. It is difficult sometimes to convey in words the picture that is in your mind. I will be putting in collar ties on the upper third of the rafters also.

Don- You are an encyclopedia of valuable information. I thoroughly enjoy the technical information I have gleaned from you.

Thanks to everyone.

Offline archimedes

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #69 on: March 08, 2010, 05:41:22 AM »
Really enjoying watching your project.  It looks like it's coming out great so far.

You didn't mention (or I missed it) do you have grid power?  It looks pretty remote so I wasn't sure.

be safe.
Give me a place to stand and a lever long enough,  and I will move the world.

Offline dug

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #70 on: March 08, 2010, 06:09:29 AM »
Quote
You didn't mention (or I missed it) do you have grid power?  It looks pretty remote so I wasn't sure.

be safe.

Yes, we are hooked into the grid. The property was a good setup for us because it had power, septic ,well, but little else. Until I run the electric line my juice comes from a 100 ft. 12 gauge extension cord.

Like the majority of NM it is fairly remote. We have few neighbors, but the ones we have are great.

Offline Don_P

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #71 on: March 08, 2010, 03:29:57 PM »
John, you have the terminology right, Dug used the right term too. A collar tie is in the upper third and keeps uplift or inflation from pulling the rafters free at the ridge. A rafter tie is in the lower third, preferrably across the  "feet" of the rafter right at the birdsmouth/top plate. It keeps the rafters from pushing the top of the walls outward.

The collar tie in the upper third is not as highly stressed, from memory, a 1x4 across from rafter to rafter every 4' or straps over the top. The big failure that frequently happens in a high wind is a poorly brace upper gable blows in and the roof inflates. These are the storm films when you see the roof unzip down the middle at the peak, no collar ties. I've seen several barns that lost a hayloft door which wasn't fixed. A few years of regular storms pumping into the mow starts popping the roof metal, then a wind strips it off.

The rafter tie to rafter connection is the highest stress connection in the roof, when you see a swayback roof it is usually that connection letting go.

Thanks Dug, I'm glad you all don't mind me using you to keep sharp, questions make me research.

Offline dug

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #72 on: April 02, 2010, 04:46:41 PM »
So I'm just checking in to post my latest progress updates. Slow, as usual. but steadily moving.

I am developing a newfound respect for folks who build their own places. Not that I didn't have respect before, but after getting as far as I have I can really appreciate the amount of work that goes into it. If I don't develop a hernia, or tear a ligament, or worse I may find myself in the best shape of my life by the time I am done.


Finishing some framing and started with the asphalt paper. Putting that paper on is a little less fun than I figured it would be.



Still some details to deal with on this gable end, I will finish up the sheathing in the morning.



Almost finished with the overhang details and barge rafters. The wind has been fearsome at times and it was a white knuckle event when I was working on this yesterday. A shot of whiskey at the end of the day calmed me down.


Just for fun-



So in case you are wondering why I have not closed off the rest of the roof, it is because we made a change in plans and decided to set the front porch rafters on top of the wall plate  so we could keep the (porch) roof as high as possible. Hopefully I will start the porch footings (more digging!!) in about a week.

Pray for sunshine.



Offline devildog

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #73 on: April 02, 2010, 05:22:32 PM »
Looks real good dug. I dont think Ive seen tar paper that tight since mountain dons place.Keep up the good work.
Darrell
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Offline astidham

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Re: dug & Jenny's 20 by 30 1 and 1/2 story
« Reply #74 on: April 02, 2010, 05:43:24 PM »
you house looks great, how tall are your piers, and how did you build your rebar cages?
"Chop your own wood and it will warm you twice"
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