Power outage, who cares

peternap · November 11, 2009, 06:57:21 AM

For some reason, the power went out this morning for many Hanover residents.

At the farm, we;re completely off grid with solar and wind power. Unfortunately, we are at the burb house now.

I didn't feel like cranking up the generator so I lit two of the Aladdin lamps. Instant light and heat. I learned a long time ago not to use them in the summer. They get hot.

I put the coffee on on the propane burners and I'm happy. If the outage continue, I have enough generator to run the house and enough fuel for a week non stop. I have two battery banks that will handle 30% of our electric needs and solar Panels I can set up if needed.

The bottom line is...we don't need Dominion Power.

glenn kangiser · November 11, 2009, 12:19:05 PM

I know the feeling Peter.

Every time the power goes out in the county I think about the poor people who are living on grid and at the mercy of the power company - who just put in to increase prices again in 2011. Funny - my costs are going down as time goes on.

The lady at the county told me off grid was too unreliable and I had to hook to the grid if available. That is the law. I feel it is my God given right to provide power for my family so I did not get the permit or the grid hookup. I just made the wind generator mount portable. Just pull the stakes out of the ground and unhook the guys. That was the recommended mounting procedure anyway. That was 7 years ago. Still no problem with them or the electricity. Of course I am in the boonies in the wild wild west. It is 4 miles to town but seems like much farther for the wildness of the area.

A bit expensive to start but... there were no up front costs to get power in here either.

November 11, 2009, 01:01:07 PM

Being off grid has always sounded to me like absolute bliss, though I suspect it would cost me as much as the land and a cabin to do it.

Ball park, how expensive are you talkin' about, and what kind of power output are you getting, Glenn?

Thanks,
Parks

Squirl · November 11, 2009, 01:52:08 PM

It depends.

How much power do you want? I was able to get my power usage down to 2 kw a day in an apartment I lived in once.

Most off grid systems can compete in cost with grid electricity in the long run (over ten years) on a per KW basis if you install it yourself. It also depends on the installation cost of grid power. I would not pay much to have the ability to keep paying someone for a lifetime and be at there whim on prices. Especially with the deregulation of pricing in electricity in many states around the country.

You can install a small system for as little as $1,000 depending on the amount of electricity and inverter choice.

Without knowing how much power usage you want, I would say the average small cabin system could be built for as little as $3,000. The sky is the limit though when you start buy higher end equipment (full sine, 24v-48v. systems.)

glenn kangiser · November 11, 2009, 02:04:37 PM

Right on there Squirl.

We have enough to run things similar to a normal house (Saying we are not normal?)

1000 watt wind generator 3700 watts solar appx. 2 Trace 4024 inverters piggy backed for 120/240. Appx 35 amps 240 or 70 amps 120. I can run a welder with it and various medium to large power tools in the shop. We pump about 500 gallons of water per day from a 320 foot pump setting plus 80 feet uphill above ground. We have 2 freezers and 2 fridges and may put on another freezer later. Sassy doesn't have time to can and we may butcher a steer in the next 6 months.

We make around 15 kwh per day just guessing - wind kicks in during storms mostly - maybe adds .5 to 2 kwh per day normally. We are not in the greatest wind area but have some.

We have roughly 20 to 30k invested in the system with all installation being home brew.

November 11, 2009, 02:45:24 PM

A woman I know who recently had a metal building put up as a residence here in OK told me she'd looked into solar and figured it would set her back upwards of 40,000, so that sounds about right.

Thanks, guys.

MountainDon · November 11, 2009, 02:47:56 PM

If you really want to be electrically independent you must do an audit of what you are using and what you are wasting. Eliminate the waste. Then look at what the alternative power hardware is going to cost.

Another question is do you want to be totally independent with your own storage batteries, or do you want to be grid tied and use the grid as the storage. Coupling that to a back up generator for when the grid goes down can save the cost o the batteries as well eliminate the maintenance. Some locales, like where we live, have the ability to sell the excess PV or wind power generated by the home owner to the power company at a KwH rate that is higher than what you pay the power company when you need to draw from them. Personally I think that is a good deal in an area where outages are infrequent.

If you want to be totally electrically independent, that will usually mean you are using some other energy source or cooking. For some with a smaller PV system they may also have to use a propane refrigerator rather than an electric one. In those cases I feel you are just trading electrical dependence for natural gas or propane dependence. It is possible to use an energy efficient electric refrigerator off grid, but that means more panels and more batteries. The lower cost of electric refrigerators is offset by the greater cost of more panels and batteries.

There's a lot to consider when contemplating energy sources and dependencies.

That's my two cents.

Squirl · November 11, 2009, 03:56:54 PM

Most quotes around me are 40k for a 3 kw system. It used to be 30K but when the 10k government rebate came out, the installation price went up 10k. Funny how the price for an installed system jumped this year when the cost of solar was falling. You can get them free (installation and all) around Philadelphia if you sign an 10 year lease. IIRC, The way they make money is they are an "approved" installer for the 10k government rebate. So for 3 kw of sunelec panels at $2 a watt would cost them 6k in panels and another $500 for an inverter to grid tie. So they make $3.5k just for the installation and then for the next 9 years you pay them for the electricity you use instead of the normal power company. So they would make an additional $600 a year for 10 years from you in power. Plus they sell the carbon credits for those years too.

But if you look at the simple systems at homepower.com or backwoods solar it can be really cheap. Every watt of conservation usually saves $4-$5 of production.

I have built a simple system for lighting for lighting, radio, and computer for $400. It depends on how handy you are. I don't factor in installation costs usually in discussions on this forum because most people are very handy here.

Windpower · November 11, 2009, 05:34:20 PM

my budgeted costs look like this

cost

12 205 watt panels (Evergreen) 6900
inverter (Xantrex 6048) 2900
charge controller (Xantrex MPP60) 500
batteries (Surrettes) 6000
wire etc 1000
total ~ $17500

according to this dandy calculator

http://www.wholesalesolar.com/StartHere/OFFGRID/OFFGRIDCalculator.html

that should give about 10 KW-Hr per day on average up in da north

Wind

6 AirX 3600
Tower (I have a water pump tower)

these should average out at about 6 KW-Hr per day on my windy hill

or about 16 KW-Hrs per day total generating power from the sun and wind

payback (very simple assumptions --modest inflation (but we we KNOW power is going to go up ALOT),no net present value stuff or cost of money calcs, no tax rebates, no depreciation or saving for battery wear etc etc or my labor at about $0.30 per hour or $9000 or trips to the emergency room

$ 0.2 per KW_hr X 16 X 365 = 1168 a year
plus monthly meter charge $240

or a cost avoidance of about 1400 per year verses paying the power company

$21100 invested divided by 1400 per year

pencils out to about a 15 year payback

with a more resonable assumption about the increase in the cost of power -- probably a 10 to 12 year payback

this sounds like a good investment to me

and No power outages

November 12, 2009, 04:35:56 AM

.. or if you build it and know how it works you will know why the power is out and how to fix it. Usually they are brief if I have one.

Mike 870 · November 12, 2009, 10:04:49 AM

Hey windpower, would you be willing to post any more info on your system? Like system voltage or wiring diagram if you have it. Have you installed it yet? I'm trying to get my PV knowledge to the next level, but am really only good on the theory stuff so far.

Windpower · November 12, 2009, 12:09:00 PM

It is not installed yet

I want to wait til the latest to purchase the batteries since they have a 'shelf life' and the warranty
also starts when they are purchased

I am pretty much convinced that the 5000 series Surrettes are the best bang for the buck (10 year warranty and one of the best reputations in the industry)

The HUP may be better but they are very expensive for a 48 volt system (almost twice the Surrettes IIRC)

the installation has been delayed due to financial 'issues'

I have the panels and I will be wiring them up 4 in series for 48 volts nominal

the AirX are 48 volt as well

I like the way the Xantrex units integrate and the information panel can be mounted well away from the power center

Thesolarbiz website (recomended by MountainDon) has a wealth of information and they are very helpful on the phone too. (the lowest prices on just about everything-- except panels from sunelec in Miami http://sunelec.com/ )

http://www.thesolar.biz/

you can download the complete install manual for the Xantrex stuff there too

more as the system gets put together

MountainDon · November 12, 2009, 12:30:36 PM

Windpower, those 5000 series Surettes are very nice batteries. An excellent choice.

I'm curious as to which model you are thinking of. Perhaps if you'd like we could move that part of this discussion to the Off Grid thread?

With the relatively modest demands of our cabin system I'm sticking with golf cart batteries until I see what happens over a few winters. My ideal would be twelve of the 4000 series, 2 volt, 1050 AH cells, connected for 24 volts.

peternap · November 12, 2009, 12:33:00 PM

Quote from: RainDog on November 11, 2009, 01:01:07 PM

Being off grid has always sounded to me like absolute bliss, though I suspect it would cost me as much as the land and a cabin to do it.

Ball park, how expensive are you talkin' about, and what kind of power output are you getting, Glenn?

Thanks,
Parks

It's as expensive a you want it to be Parks. We started with a couple of Harbor Freight 15 watt panels and a deep cycle Marine battery...and it was usable. I have steadily upgraded and improved.

Now I have wind that I built myself and a number of different battery bank. The main one us made from 3000 pound Forklift batteries rewired fot 12 volts and I have several more banks using Golg cart batteries.

I have kept 12 volts because it suits how I use the system. I think Don uses 24 volts and Glenn either 36 or 48. The higher voltage is more efficient, but I try not to use 120 volt appliances any more than absolutely necessary.

For the high demand stuff I do have, I use the diesel generator and have two gas backups.

I use heavy aluminum wire for transmission. It's cheaper than copper and sure you lose a few milliamps but you can get so focused on the minor details, that you never get an affordable system built.

November 12, 2009, 12:41:40 PM

Quote from: Mike 870 on November 12, 2009, 10:04:49 AM
Hey windpower, would you be willing to post any more info on your system? Like system voltage or wiring diagram if you have it. Have you installed it yet? I'm trying to get my PV knowledge to the next level, but am really only good on the theory stuff so far.

Gadgets and things can add a lot to the cost. A combiner box as shown on some plans is cool but wire nuts will do it too. Mounts are nice but a 2x frame will do the job. Lots of your coxt and complexity depend on your needs.

I use 24 volts as that is the minimum size I find practical for pretty large power.

We continue to add to our system in 500 watt modules each with it's own regulator. They will take care of themselves as the charge comes up and kick in as it goes down.

peternap · November 12, 2009, 12:51:23 PM

Quote from: glenn kangiser on November 12, 2009, 12:41:40 PM
Quote from: Mike 870 on November 12, 2009, 10:04:49 AM
Hey windpower, would you be willing to post any more info on your system? Like system voltage or wiring diagram if you have it. Have you installed it yet? I'm trying to get my PV knowledge to the next level, but am really only good on the theory stuff so far.

Gadgets and things can add a lot to the cost. A combiner box as shown on some plans is cool but wire nuts will do it too. Mounts are nice but a 2x frame will do the job. Lots of your coxt and complexity depend on your needs.

I use 24 volts as that is the minimum size I find practical for pretty large power.

We continue to add to our system in 500 watt modules each with it's own regulator. They will take care of themselves as the charge comes up and kick in as it goes down.

Glenn has a very good point. These are some frames I built, cost was almost nothing and are tilt adjustable

peternap · November 12, 2009, 01:03:02 PM

Another good point from Glenn is to add modules. Each with it's own regulator or charge controller. All of my controllers are Xantrex except the newest one which is a Tristar.

The Tristar is working just as well as the others.

Using modules, I can have power for specific areas and if need be, huttle power to an area that I am drawing more than normal from.

The worst thing I could recommend would be to go to a ite like otherpower.

While there is a ton of good information there, the most active people are Power Snobs...and will bankrupt you or discourage you enough to not install a system.
It's like guns. I have ome very expensive guns but I will likely use a very accurate but inexpensive, Handi Rifle in 45/70 next week. Why ?....it works!

MountainDon · November 12, 2009, 01:04:34 PM

Quote from: glenn kangiser on November 12, 2009, 12:41:40 PMLots of your cost and complexity depends on your needs.

... which includes whether or not your installation will be inspected and therefore needs to meet NEC or local code regulations.

I do have some non compliant components or methods in my cabin system

but they are relatively minor and could be corrected if some day if it was necessary, and nothing that is inherently more dangerous than what is called for by code.

glenn kangiser · November 12, 2009, 01:17:27 PM

I have a couple too...

peternap · November 12, 2009, 01:20:58 PM

Quote from: glenn kangiser on November 12, 2009, 01:17:27 PM
I have a couple too...

Not me

November 12, 2009, 01:25:12 PM

You must have seen the pix.... it's organic ... it just grew that way.... I'm having thoughts of improving it some day....

Squirl · November 12, 2009, 04:42:02 PM

Lots of good info here. As was said, it is about what you need. The less you need, the less the cost. For my shed right (8x12) now, I needed a radio, laptop, cell phone, and two cfl lights (all under 100 watts). I have 95 panel watts and controller /($150 HF + $142 eBay). I have one marine deep cell from Wally world for $70 and might get another. I figure for my small needs $70 isn't much, and they usually have a no questions asked return policy if I destroy it in the first year. Good for me to get my sea legs in solar IMO. I had a standard 100 watt car inverter that I had to do all those things from my 12v car plug ($18 sunk cost). So all told I spent about $400 for a system. I am home building a small wind turbine that I have about $50 into so far and will probably spend around $200 total. This will require me to buy a wind turbine controller, which I found a 160 amp one for $160 on eBay. I expect this to put out an additional .5 - 1 kw a day. I have one backup 4400 watt generator I picked up on craigslist for $100. When I build my cabin, I plan to build a larger 3 kw a day turbine for about $1,000. I figure I can expand another So in summary it can be very cheap to the sky's the limit, but it is easily expandable over time. I am sure when you share what you are building and ask you will get a whole lot of responses and suggestions with costs from members here. (as you can see this can be a hot topic to many)

The downside is that off grid power is not a no brainer. (upside to tinkerers like myself) As many people on here can tell you they spend lots of time reading discussing and learning. There are dozens of options: solar, wind, hydro, steam, browngas, etc.. The largest cost to off grid power can be the thought put into your location, finding a location, and finding what is best for you. The more thought something takes, the more people like to charge you to do it for you.

If you know what you want ahead of time sometimes you can buy the land to meet your needs. I knew I wanted to be off grid, so I got a great deal on land that was cost prohibitive to run electricity. Also I was able to purchase the top of a peak on a mountain which gave me the best access to sun (passive solar) and wind (electric) for power, but no hydro. These factors actually lowered the cost of the land and will lower my off grid electric costs too.

BTW, nice mounts peter.

glenn kangiser · November 12, 2009, 06:15:23 PM

Hey Squirl, since the wind generator needs to be connected at all times if it wasn't for needing a dump load I think you could just connect it through a diode to prevent reverse current flow when there is no wind.

A small system will always need a dump load though as sometimes these things really get to humming. With no load they will self destruct hence the need to always run them loaded and burn off the excess. That requires a controller or regulator set for the dump load.

Please keep us updated on your home brew wind generator. I have 2 PM motors from treadmills waiting for me to do something with them..

Squirl · November 12, 2009, 06:44:21 PM

http://cgi.ebay.com/160-Amp-12v-24v-Wind-Solar-Diversion-Controller-w-Meter_W0QQitemZ180412326582QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2a0169a2b6

This was the one I was referring to. It has a diversion controller for a dump load. I was trying to think of a good dump load. I was thinking a small inverter with a kill a watt monitor and a resistance heater to see how much power I am wasting. Maybe upgrading to a hydrogen electrolysis project if I am dumping to much. All way down the road. I think 3600 watts should be good controller for all my needs. They have a 440 amp/10 KW controller for $220, but I can't imagine needing something that big. They have a great rating on eBay and have not seen any other reviews. I figure I will be the test mouse and let everyone know.

I am using a pm motor from a scooter I had. I will start a small thread of my system.

glenn kangiser · November 12, 2009, 06:55:58 PM

Thanks for the link. Looking forward to your updates.

Seems I have heard of using a 12v water heater coil - like from an RV heater. I pump water with mine through a series of relays attached to my wind controller dump load. I use two 12 volt Ford or other small auto relays in series to make a 24 v coil to prevent burnout, then use that to control a 120v relay so I can combine it with a pumping timer. I use the timer to assure a certain amount of water then piggyback the dump load to assure not overcharging the batteries.