requesting input - gate and driveway entrance details

[muldoon]

Hi everyone, I have been working the past week or so putting the plan together for a new entrance.  The one on the property now is nearly in shambles and is also too small and too close to the road.  I have put a plan together and posted it online.  This is a large image - it wont look anyway readable in this window so click on it - its linked to the full size, open in a new window or tab to see it full screen.  If it is still scrunched you may have images scaled so click on the picture to make it full. 

My questions -
if anyone sees anything that is a bad idea in terms of technique or materials I would appreciate a headsup.
any ideas on things that could be done better - or cheaper - without sacrificing the goals that would be nice to catch. 
does it seem like a reasonable plan ? 

I have had some trouble finding a good plan for this topic and it doesnt seem to be something available online.  Perhaps I am just dense but I am the kind of person who needs to think things out and understand the pieces before doing.  Also, I hope this thread helps others in the future if they have to do the same thing. 

[ScottA]

What kind of fence do you have along the road now? If it's barb wire you'll need streaching posts on both sides of the opening along the road.

Hinge side post should be as large as you can afford. 8" or better is best. Last time I did this i used a cut up power pole. 6" will work but won't last as long. This post should be set 4' deep and dry packed with concrete mix. Idealy there should be 2 posts set 4-6' apart and attached together with lumber so one post braces the other. The chain/latch post can be a regular post but should also be set 4' deep to keep someone from pushing the gate open. If you can afford it put a large post on both sides. The side fences can be whatever you want wood wire pipe whatever.

[MikeT]

A (very) minor point: I think the consensus in the group is that Thompson's Water Seal is an inferior product. 

mt

[muldoon]

What kind of fence do you have along the road now? If it's barb wire you'll need streaching posts on both sides of the opening along the road.

I do have barb wire, however - I am a little unfamiliar with the term "stretching post".  My assumption is that you are referring to posts that the front fence (barb wire) would attach to where it became the gate.  If I understand your comment correctly, I am calling them as "O" and "P" in the drawing, essentially 2 extra posts spaced 2' from the road gate post, to add stability and provide the anchor and transition from barbed wire to cedar slats.   

Here is a picture of what I have now.   The wood is rotten, the gate is too close to the road, the fence is sagging. 

Hinge side post should be as large as you can afford. 8" or better is best. Last time I did this i used a cut up power pole. 6" will work but won't last as long. This post should be set 4' deep and dry packed with concrete mix.

Out of curiosity, for the hing post itself - what do you think of a railroad tie?  I believe they are 9'6" and very stout.  I can get them fairly cheaply and use them in my container garden now.  Do you think it would be advantageous to use one of them and bury it 4 feet in a mix of dry concrete/dirt? 

Idealy there should be 2 posts set 4-6' apart and attached together with lumber so one post braces the other.

If I follow you correctly, I believe this is what I am calling "D" and "C" on the drawing.   They would be braced together with the cedar boards, not unlike the bottom-most picture from my "ideas to steal from"  pictures, the one with the Texas star on it. 

The chain/latch post can be a regular post but should also be set 4' deep to keep someone from pushing the gate open. If you can afford it put a large post on both sides. The side fences can be whatever you want wood wire pipe whatever.

My thinking would to be symetrical, with the same configuration on both sides.  If I used a railroad tie on one side I would do the same on the other.   hrmm..  damn those are heavy... 

A (very) minor point: I think the consensus in the group is that Thompson's Water Seal is an inferior product. 

mt

I would agree based on my experience with it, however I do not know of a good alternative.  Can anyone suggest one?  Perhaps one that is thin enough to go from a sprayer? 

[ScottA]

Yep, O and P but I would put them 6' apart and then run a 4" post at an angle from one up to brace the other post so when you pull the wire tight the post won't lean. kinda like I/I if thats not too confusing.

A railroad tie should work fine so long as it's sound. 

[firefox]

This is a small point but I think worth mentioning. Rope stretches.
I would suggest getting a couple of 30' tape measures, take some duct tape and wrap them around the tape holders so that they feed out in opposite directions. Pull out each end a foot and mark on a board. Measure between the two marks and subtract two feet. The number you have left should be marked on the duct tape. Don't
forget the - if it was less than two feet.
When you measure don't forget to add or subtract that number as needed.

I hope that was clear, if not, let me know and Ill try to rephrase it.

Bruce

[muldoon]

firefox -  that is a good point that rope stretches.  It also can coil and be hard to keep straight, and is not as reliable as a real tape measure.  I agree.   I would not ever frame a house or build cabinets with this method of measuring. 

I specifically noted using polypropylene rope above, its cheap but also it has a low stretch rate, much less than nylon or many natural fibers.  I would intend to measure and cut the ropes the weekend or just a few days before laying it out and using it.  I have used rope in the past for project layout and had good luck with the practice.  If nothing else, just building confidence that markings and measurements are identified and properly spaced.   One of two things is going to happen, it will line up perfectly - meaning its square or true, or it wont and I would have to fall back to real tape measure to find the error either way.  My goal was to make it simple and fast to do in the field without alot of "1 person tasks" like everyone stand around and wait while I square up all the lines and angles.   Given the tolerance and leeeway in a fence I think it will be ok. 

[Beavers]

Very nice detailed plan muldoon.

I double checked all your numbers and came up with the same distances as you.

I know it's minor stuff, but it seems like that is what you are looking for...

You can get a 100' cloth tape for cheap, I'm sure I paid less than $20 for mine.  Yes it will still stretch, but it's way more accurate than trying to transfer measurements to a section of rope.  As long as you apply about the same amount of tension for all the measurements it should be way more than accurate enough for a fence. 

Instead of the nails why not drill a hole through the bottom of the posts and drive a section of rebar through them?  Much stronger than a nail, and most likely not much more expensive.


Like I said just my 2 cents of nitpicking your plan! 

[Redoverfarm]

Looks like a standard flared gate opening.  Used a lot to give room to move farm equipment off the road before the gate is opened.  If you have a stretched fence meeting  Post "O" and "P" then you will want to brace those post with the adjacent post "E" & "F".  The tension on the pull of your stretched fence will pull both O&E and F&P.  A short section of 4" X 4" notched into each then a brace wire diagonal from each.  Just remember as Scott said the bigger the better especially on the end of the run post and the hinge post.  Intermediate not so important.

When you hang your gate make sure you give it enough clearence so that it will not later "sag and drag".  Do not run all the threads in on your gate hinge lags.  Leave a little for future adjustment .

Just a little tid bit.  When I worked for a farmer growing up and we set post he said that if you don't have to go elsewhere and get enough dirt to fill the hole you haven't tamped it enough. 

[glenn kangiser]

If the road is busy, 28' would not be enough for a truck and trailer - maybe not a problem.

In the sun, railroad ties can ooze creosote for years and years and years - like your own little creosote well - and it will be black and sticky when hot.  Don't ask me how I know.

[muldoon]

great comments on this thread, thank you. 

I made a few changes and corrections, here is the latest




----
changes
-spreading posts moved to 6' from each other, add 4x4 brace between them in a 45 degree angle.  4x4 notched and attached with lag bolts.

-noticed that the posts sidelines had the ends in the wrong position, ie the middle posts were ok but the end E and C or F and D were impossible to build.  The fence slats attach to the side of the posts where the straight line should be and I had them going through the middle.  would be kinda hard to nail a board into the middle of a post. 

-noticed that the relationship between G and C and H and D was wrong as well.  for strength, the fence boards would go from front of G to back of C and the side fence should use the front face of C.  I again had the fence boards going right through the center of the posts. 

- I know what you mean about the weeping creosote Glen, I don't really want to mess that that either.  I'll look for the correct sized posts and use em'. 

-upgraded hinge and latch post from 6" posts to 8".  upgraded spreading posts from 5" to 8". 

-I have used Thompson water seal in the past and not been happy, given the materials I am just inclined to skip it altogether. 

-regarding using rebar instead of nails - now that you mention it I have a huge bucket of lag bolts left over from a job a few summers back, I'll use them as I already have them.  I agree with the rebar idea tho and would go that route if I didn't have the lags already.

-Quite a few comments on using rope, I know you guys are right about stretch and the pain with transcribing measurements onto rope.  I think this plan is really going to become a three weekend plan afterall, with the first week being site prep and layout marking.  It'll give me the chance to gather all the materials on site, clear the work area of brush, layout the stakes taking my time and measuring like I want, it will also make the actual work weekend go much faster and easier.  I will still make the three ropes for the most important lines to help me make sure I have the layout right in my mind.  call it a crutch. 

Here is the updated document, also linked to open in a new tab or window.  I left the original intact so the changes can be followed for future forum members that wish to take advantage of the ideas here. 

[Redoverfarm]

Everybody does it.  If there is livestock within the confines of your fence then your boards are on the wrong side.  No big deal but numerous persons who build fence for livestock put the barrier whether it be wire (Woven or strand) or board fence on the inside so that when the livestock push against it they are also pushing against the post.  The other way they can force the fence away from the post.  But in your application it is more of an appearance than a need.  Just thought I would throw that out.