Author Topic: Joggers  (Read 5091 times)

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Offline bayview

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Joggers
« on: January 09, 2009, 04:12:45 PM »
   

   I almost ran over a jogger today.  She popped out from around a truck as she was jogging towards me.  I swerved into the oncoming lane, slamming on the brakes.  Fortunately I didn’t hit anything.  (Including her) 

   Instead of apologizing, she got right in my face telling me how I could have killed her, etc . . . 

   I asked her why she was jogging on the road when there is a sidewalk on both sides.  She said that is where people walk and she has to jog off the sidewalk and around them in the grass risking possible injury.  I said, “Yeah, but I would think it would be better than getting hit by my two ton truck”. She said she was going to call the police with her cell phone.  “Please do !!!  I am sure there are laws keeping you from jogging on the road”

   Confrontation ended . . .

  This is in a residential neighborhood.  I noticed that practically everyone was walking on the road.  Including kids going to school. 

   Why install sidewalks if no one uses them?



 

    . . . said the focus was safety, not filling town coffers with permit money . . .

Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: Joggers
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2009, 07:06:19 PM »
Better to take out a single jogger or bike rider than a car or bus full of kids - if hitting something cannot be avoided.

Obviously her DNA is useless to and in fact detrimental to the gene pool.
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Offline r8ingbull

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Re: Joggers
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2009, 06:01:12 AM »
As a counterpoint, since I've never owned a car and the bulk of my transportation is on foot or bicycle...

The jogger is correct to be in the lane with oncoming traffic.  This is for several reasons; asphalt is a much better running surface than concrete, the streets are much smoother and flatter than sidewalks, she can jump the curb to get out of your way...etc...Actually if the cops were called and had to make a right/wrong decision it would have been you getting a ticket for failure to control your vehicle.  Although I don't think many cops would actually right the ticket.  Glen is correct, the jogger has to be hit over the oncoming traffic.  Similar to a deer in the lane so you cant swerve and hit another car.

The situation changes when it's a bicycle rider.  They are considered traffic and have full rights to lanes just like a car.  They have to make all signals and obey traffic laws.  Bicyclist can be ticketed just like a motorist.

Sidewalks can be dangerous, too many driveways and crossroads.  Most motorist never look at the sidewalk before pulling in or out.  Plus many cities have large trees in the view path for motorist.  Not mention around here we get 14" of snow and the sidewalks don't get shoveled for awhile, and the plow tailing at crossroads can be 3-4' deep at times.  It is impossible to walk on the sidewalk in some conditions and un-safe in most...

Also an experienced bicyclist or jogger has far better road senses than a motorist.  When not surrounded by steel and glass you can hear and smell and even "feel" the traffic.  I wouldn't survive getting pinched between two cars and a "fender bender" could be life threatening, so I am far more aware of my surroundings than the average motorist.  Plus I don't have a radio, or cell phone, or kids in the back seat, etc...

Actually if you come up behind a bicyclist and he comes out into the lane, the best response is to slow down and wait for him to allow you past.  Most likely he sees something that you don't, or is planning ahead to make a turn.  My 6yo daughter is only allowed to ride in the street.  I am sure she has more road sense than 95% of the drivers, and it will make her a better motorist if she chooses.

Please note: none of this applies to drunks/idiots on bikes or foot...I agree w/glen, some of these people should have there DNA removed from the gene pool through natural selection.

Offline muldoon

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Re: Joggers
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2009, 07:10:14 AM »
I guess I'm way off base then cause thats not how I see it at all. 

As a counterpoint, since I've never owned a car and the bulk of my transportation is on foot or bicycle...

The jogger is correct to be in the lane with oncoming traffic. 
no, I dont think the jogger should be in the road at all.  roads are for cars.  sidewalks are for pedestrians. 

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This is for several reasons; asphalt is a much better running surface than concrete, the streets are much smoother and flatter than sidewalks, she can jump the curb to get out of your way...etc...
yes, roads are designed to be driven on and are smooth, usually level.  Your saying the reason she is correct to be in the road is because it is more convenient "for her".  thats a BS justification. 

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Actually if the cops were called and had to make a right/wrong decision it would have been you getting a ticket for failure to control your vehicle.  Although I don't think many cops would actually right the ticket. 
No, he controlled his vehicle.  She not being a pancake is a testament to the fact.

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Glen is correct, the jogger has to be hit over the oncoming traffic.  Similar to a deer in the lane so you cant swerve and hit another car.

Common sense would say so, but in Texas at least the law as I understood it was "whatever is the lesser of two evils" meaning if you have to choose between a skateboarder and a car - pick the car because the skateboarder doesnt have a chance. 

As for the deer, why would you swerve away from free dinner? 

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The situation changes when it's a bicycle rider.  They are considered traffic and have full rights to lanes just like a car.  They have to make all signals and obey traffic laws.  Bicyclist can be ticketed just like a motorist.

I know thats true, and I think it was a mistake.  I wont get into that one though. 

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Sidewalks can be dangerous, too many driveways and crossroads.  Most motorist never look at the sidewalk before pulling in or out. 
which is why your parents taught you to look both ways before crossing a street. 
Quote

Plus many cities have large trees in the view path for motorist.  Not mention around here we get 14" of snow and the sidewalks don't get shoveled for awhile, and the plow tailing at crossroads can be 3-4' deep at times.  It is impossible to walk on the sidewalk in some conditions and un-safe in most...

Then bring a shovel.  Car operators pay hefty fuel taxes to maintain the roads they use.  This is what we get for our 50 cents or so per gallon of gas from the government.  They do this because the roads are for cars, not pedestrians. 

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Also an experienced bicyclist or jogger has far better road senses than a motorist.  When not surrounded by steel and glass you can hear and smell and even "feel" the traffic.  I wouldn't survive getting pinched between two cars and a "fender bender" could be life threatening, so I am far more aware of my surroundings than the average motorist.  Plus I don't have a radio, or cell phone, or kids in the back seat, etc...

maybe you should take a hint, its not that your a better driver or more aware of the road and they didnt notice you.  some people are assholes when they see people doing stupid stuff.  like walking in the road.  I'm not saying it is right to cut close to bycyclists, or joggers, I'm saying it happens and alot of times its on purpose from some people.   Your failure to understand this and insistance that jogging on the road is better because it is level and easier for you is kinda exactly what pisses people off. 

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Actually if you come up behind a bicyclist and he comes out into the lane, the best response is to slow down and wait for him to allow you past.  Most likely he sees something that you don't, or is planning ahead to make a turn.  My 6yo daughter is only allowed to ride in the street.  I am sure she has more road sense than 95% of the drivers, and it will make her a better motorist if she chooses.

Again, like you said, the rules are a bit different for bycyclists.  we do share the road with bicyclists.  I'm not ranting against them..  at least not today I am not. 
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Please note: none of this applies to drunks/idiots on bikes or foot...I agree w/glen, some of these people should have there DNA removed from the gene pool through natural selection.

Offline r8ingbull

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Re: Joggers
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2009, 07:47:54 AM »
I guess I'm way off base then cause thats not how I see it at all. 

no, I dont think the jogger should be in the road at all.  roads are for cars.  sidewalks are for pedestrians. 

Common sense would say so, but in Texas at least the law as I understood it was "whatever is the lesser of two evils" meaning if you have to choose between a skateboarder and a car - pick the car because the skateboarder doesnt have a chance. 

I know thats true, and I think it was a mistake.  I wont get into that one though. 

which is why your parents taught you to look both ways before crossing a street. 

Then bring a shovel.  Car operators pay hefty fuel taxes to maintain the roads they use.  This is what we get for our 50 cents or so per gallon of gas from the government.  They do this because the roads are for cars, not pedestrians. 

maybe you should take a hint, its not that your a better driver or more aware of the road and they didnt notice you.  some people are assholes when they see people doing stupid stuff.  like walking in the road.  I'm not saying it is right to cut close to bycyclists, or joggers, I'm saying it happens and alot of times its on purpose from some people.   Your failure to understand this and insistance that jogging on the road is better because it is level and easier for you is kinda exactly what pisses people off. 


Again, like you said, the rules are a bit different for bycyclists.  we do share the road with bicyclists.  I'm not ranting against them..  at least not today I am not. 

Actually roads are to allow access from my property, across my neighbors property.  I have given up 33' of property on both sides of my land to allow this access.  In exchange I am given this access by other land owners.  We have allowed cars to intrude on our lives and property.  I would never tell someone they can't drive down a road any more than I would expect you to tell me I can't walk down a road, or bike, or ride my horse drawn carriage.

Roads are funded by a combination of general revenue and gas tax revenue.  When I buy a new bike or parts for my bike (or running equipment, shoes, etc) I pay sales taxes, import taxes, all sorts of things.  The damage done to a road by a bike or runner is minimal.  Just because a bicyclist doesn't buy fuel does not mean they didn't pay a share of taxes used for roads.

Also I am talking about people on low speed residential streets.  I don't take my daughter on state or federal highways on her bike.  It's just too dangerous.  If you really think about it, a 25mph street is able to handle many mixed uses.  My god, we used to play ball in the streets when i was a kid.

Just because a person in a car is the biggest thing on the road, they don't deserve special rights...

Offline NM_Shooter

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Re: Joggers
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2009, 08:08:49 AM »
Pedestrians do not have the right to be anywhere they want on a roadway.  Cross a busy city street outside of a crosswalk, and the pedestrian is liable to be ticketed. 

I frequently hear stories on our local news of pedestrians and bicyclists who walk or ride out into a busy lane only to get hurt / killed.  Most of the time, the driver is not charged. 

For some reason, pedestrians and bicyclists seem to believe they have the right of way under all circumstances.  This is not true.  I particularly have a predisposition against bike riders on the street. 

1)  I almost never see a bike rider use correct signaling when operating their bike on a street.
2)  Even less frequently do I see them obey traffic lights, stop signs, or other traffic management devices.
3)  They frequently hop curbs, cut across driveways, and are even less tolerant of pedestrians than automobile drivers.
4)  I absolutely hate it when I am on a busy street, have difficulty passing a bicyclist, come to a stop and then watch the bike pass everyone on the right, only to become a traffic impediment again. 

Bayview, I think maybe you should have called the police.  They could have explained it to her.  Let me guess... she was wearing earbuds and listening to her ipod?
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Offline muldoon

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Re: Joggers
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2009, 08:19:26 AM »
Also I am talking about people on low speed residential streets.  I don't take my daughter on state or federal highways on her bike.  It's just too dangerous. 
Why is it too dangerous?  Do you think a 3 ton vehicle moving at 25 miles an hour is any less dangerous?  Where exactly do you draw the line?  Either one can kill you and your family.  You do realize that playing in the street is dangerous business for anyone at any time .., right? 

I dont want to get into bikes too much because this thread is really about joggers and people walking down the street instead of the sidewalk.  Bikes do take the same risks though, which is why they are supposed to follow the rules of the road, have reflectors, front lights and such. 


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If you really think about it, a 25mph street is able to handle many mixed uses.  My god, we used to play ball in the streets when i was a kid.

Just because a person in a car is the biggest thing on the road, they don't deserve special rights...

I used to play ball in the street when I was a kid too.  However, when a car was coming we got off the road.  We didnt get indignant and threaten to call the cops for someone almost hitting us because we were on our playing field.  It's the middle of the road, yes cars do have rights on the road; namely right of way.   


Offline r8ingbull

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Re: Joggers
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2009, 08:44:18 AM »
Why is it too dangerous?  Do you think a 3 ton vehicle moving at 25 miles an hour is any less dangerous?  Where exactly do you draw the line?  Either one can kill you and your family.  You do realize that playing in the street is dangerous business for anyone at any time .., right? 

I used to play ball in the street when I was a kid too.  However, when a car was coming we got off the road.  We didnt get indignant and threaten to call the cops for someone almost hitting us because we were on our playing field.  It's the middle of the road, yes cars do have rights on the road; namely right of way.   

Why is it too dangerous???  On my 1 mile ride home from work, the state highway might have 80 cars pass me at 50mph.  The 25mph residential route I might see 2 @ 25mph.  At lower speeds I have far more time to give her commands and directions, and even intercept traffic if need be.  At 25mph I can see a drivers eyes, I get a much better feel for their intentions and my own comfort level is much higher.

Everything is dangerous.  Everything we do has an element of danger.  It's my decision to make for myself and my family where we draw that line.

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Joggers
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2009, 08:46:13 AM »
Where sidewalks are provided they should be used by walkers and joggers. Period; end of discussion. If you are jogging and find the curb cuts, driveways, kids toys, etc. an impediment then you should find a more suitable place to jog. That does not necessarily mean the roadway.

Unfortunately where we live in the 'burbs many streets do not have sidewalks. So the walkers and joggers are forced out in the road. Fortunately the feeder streets and main drags do have sidewalks and you would have to be nuts to walk or jog on those roadways. I don't recall a motorist being ticketed for hitting a pedestrian when they were on a roadway where a sidewalk or pedestrian crossing was provided around here.


Bicycles are another topic if anyone has the urge to get into it.
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Offline ScottA

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Re: Joggers
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2009, 09:28:45 AM »
During the warmer months we see alot of bike tours around here. They come out from the city to ride in the country. They will ride 2 - 3 across blocking a lane on the state hwy (60 mph). They will not move over to the shoulder to let you pass hardly ever. I see this as very rude. As a result I have no patience for them. They are not going to work they are joy riding and think they own the road. On the other hand in OK a pedestrian does have the right of way unless they are crossing outside a crosswalk (jaywalking). If they are walking down the road and there is no sidewalk they have the right of way.

Offline Mike 870

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Re: Joggers
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2009, 12:50:52 PM »
I jog on the road in my residential neighborhood because, believe it or not, paved roads are easier on my knees than concrete sidewalks.  You may not think so but once you get upwards of 18 miles every little bit helps.  Now if I'm doing a short 4 or 5 miler, I usually stay on the sidewalk.

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Re: Joggers
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2009, 12:55:45 PM »
Cyclists sharing the road is a hot topic on both sides of the issue.  I've been riding for nearly 50 years and I have probably seen and heard it all....  and I can piss off both sides.

First of all the laws are written differently in many states.  One of my favorite cycling web sites has a column written by a lawyer addressing all sorts of cycling related issues.

In many states cyclists have as much right to the lane as does a car or truck.  In some they are required to move to the right and ride single file, while in others such behavior is a courtesy, not a legal requirement.

There are cyclists who are determined to exercise their rights, traffic be damned, and some who feel entitled to more of the road than the law allows. It's foolish... there is no way a 20 lb. bike interact favorably with even a small car, never mind a truck.

There are also some practical considerations.  The shoulders of the roads in my area are not maintained. Gravel and glass accumulate there and potholes don't get fixed.  The tires on my road bike are quite thin and they run at 120 psi.  They don't get along well with poorly kept roadways.

When I ride with the local club we avoid primary roads.  We often have to ride for several miles on busy secondary roads before turning onto tertiary county roads or forest service roads.  Even on the busier roads we have to move left to avoid deep gravel or crash debris.  We stop and wait for lights, signal turns and keep to the right as much as possible.   On the lesser traveled routes we may go 15 or 20 minutes without seeing a car.  When you haven't seen a car for quite a while you can forget that you do share the road with them.

I ride between 250 and 300 days a year.  Since I don't like the bike-car interface, I mostly I ride a course back & forth on the road to my house.  I often ride for an hour or more without seeing a car. I tell people that what is good about my ride is what's bad about my ride.  Twenty or thirty miles without seeing a car is really a pleasant ride.  A few years ago I fell and broke my hip. I lay in the road for about 45 minutes before someone found me. There's still no phone signal there.



Offline bayview

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Re: Joggers
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2009, 01:17:18 PM »

Bayview, I think maybe you should have called the police.  They could have explained it to her.  Let me guess... she was wearing earbuds and listening to her ipod?

   Yes, headphones . . . 

   Again, the jogger was unseen until the last second . . .  She was behind a truck and then just "popped" out into my lane of traffic.  This is a residential road (30 mph). 

   I understand why joggers feel they need to jog against the traffic.  So they can see a vehicle coming and act accordingly.  I think it should have been her responsibility to watch out for traffic.

   I have no problem with bicycles . . . At least they are going in the same direction.  If they need to go around a car (for instance), they are visible, and you can act accordingly.


    . . . said the focus was safety, not filling town coffers with permit money . . .

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Joggers
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2009, 02:00:51 PM »
Bicycles: as for those bicyclists who ride two and three abreast and so on, I figure that they probably drive like that in their car as well. There are a lot of motorists who bother me too; probably more of them than cyclists.

However, I'll never forget the young woman in UT who gave me the finger.  :o I think it was my Jeep that bothered her, more than myself. I could be wrong.  :-\  I had been following three of them, riding abreast along a scenic road beside the Colorado river for a half mile or so. I could not pass because of the double yellow line on the winding road. Finally I gave as short a toot of my horn as possible. That's when I received the finger. The three of them continued along abreast until I was able to pass another couple miles along. Grrrrrrrrrrrr.


Locally, there is one road that is frequented by cyclists, and I have to wonder of they have death wishes or not. I use the road on the way to the mountains because it saves several miles. It traverses desert and for most of its mildly winding length there are no buildings, no development at all. It is a two lane road with virtually non existent shoulders. What there is as soft rough dirt that would be difficult to ride any mountain bike over. The speed limit is 55 MPH and there is considerable automobile traffic. Lots of double yellow as well. Meeting and passing bicycles on that road is nightmarish at times. There's nothing like cresting a blind top hill, seeing an RV coming towards you over the double yellow by a foot or two as he skirts a bicyclist. I'm not blaming the bicyclists for this; I've complained to the highway department and they say it's not in this years budget. But I do wonder why any bicyclist would ride that road.

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Offline NM_Shooter

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Re: Joggers
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2009, 06:40:04 PM »
Don... let me guess... Unser?

I absolutely believe bicyclists have a right to the road.  I also believe that they are obligated to obey the traffic laws.  It would be nice if they could be courteous too.  Many times I come behind bikers riding two abreast (legal in NM), and when they hear me, one drops behind to allow me to pass.  I wait until it is safe for me to pass them without causing a threat to them, and I try to ease around without screwing up their cadence.

Unfortunately, we get a ton of militant bike packs riding through Corrales.  They stay 3 or more abreast, and will not allow you to safely pass easily.  This really, really pisses me off. 

I don't mind pedestrians in the road, as long as they are respectful too.  Don't jump out in front of me, don't start to cross a road without looking. 

(BTW...I have to say that the kings of courteous driving live in rural mid Texas. I used to drive long distances through there and very frequently as I came up behind a slower driver, they would pull over onto the shoulder and slow down so that I could easily pass!!! What the heck was that about? )
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Offline MountainDon

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Re: Joggers
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2009, 06:51:36 PM »
Yep, from just past Northern a ways all the way to 550. There's a blind hilltop there I detest.


Respect and courtesy all 'round work wonders.


Quote
(BTW...I have to say that the kings of courteous driving live in rural mid Texas. I used to drive long distances through there and very frequently as I came up behind a slower driver, they would pull over onto the shoulder and slow down so that I could easily pass!!! What the heck was that about? )

It's not just driving. TX has some of the most courteous folks I've ever run across. It's bred into them, taught my Mom, Dad, Granny and Pops. When I was with BofA, and before that Sprint PCS I spent a lot of time on the phone talking with Texans trying to solve their problems. They might be upset, but never swore like some others, always said please, thank you, yes sir and no sir. They made me feel like I was a commanding officer in the armed forces. The generations I spoke with were all like that; I hope it's being passed on to their kids.
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Re: Joggers
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2009, 07:04:12 PM »
Quote
when they hear me, one drops behind to allow me to pass.  I wait until it is safe for me to pass them without causing a threat to them

And that, ladies & gentlemen, is how it should be done.

Here in rural Georgia it is considered sport to throw a beer bottle at a cyclist as you drive by in close proximity.  It takes a real man to do that & speed off.

The local bike lane is a bad joke.  At one point it goes down a very steep hill and just terminates into a bridge abutment. 

When I rode competitively most of my riding was on tracks.  I lived near two facilities where I could ride, any time during daylight hours.  I sometimes refer to myself as the cycling equivalent of a NASCAR driver.... round & round  & only make left turns.  If I lived near a track I'd still do that.  Some folks ask if I wouldn't find it boring going round in circles.  Oddly, many who ask only ride the stationary bike in spin classes. ???

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Joggers
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2009, 08:12:30 PM »
Interesting John. Winnipeg, where I grew up, built a velodrome for the 1967 Pan American games. It was a couple miles from where I lived. That can be an exciting sport with tactics similar to NASCAR. What is strange to me, is that several years ago the Winnipeg Velodrome was dismantled and the parts moved to Albuquerque, across the river from where we live now. The city didn't have a place to put it at the time and I believe it has deteriorated by improper storage.  d*

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Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: Joggers
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2009, 08:36:53 PM »
"(BTW...I have to say that the kings of courteous driving live in rural mid Texas. I used to drive long distances through there and very frequently as I came up behind a slower driver, they would pull over onto the shoulder and slow down so that I could easily pass!!! What the heck was that about? )"

:)  Frank, that wasn't a Texan.  That was a Mexican national.

That is the way they do it in Mexico.  I have made quite a few trips down there and even spent some time driving there.  It is common for them to pull to the shoulder for an overtaking car to pass.
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Offline peternap

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Re: Joggers
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2009, 08:54:18 PM »
John, I rode for 20 years every day. In Va, bikes have all the rights of cars and must obey the same traffic laws. When passing, cars must keep 3 feet between you and them (They don't always).

I always tried to ride the side line when it was fit and make it as easy for passing cars as possible. I used to get a bottle thrower also and the never ending puddle splashers.

I found that if I attached a holster to my Camelback and put a stainless handgun in it (Black Camelback)....everyone was polite. ;D
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Re: Joggers
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2009, 05:18:32 AM »
I found that if I attached a holster to my Camelback and put a stainless handgun in it (Black Camelback)....everyone was polite. ;D

A few months ago I saw a gizmo called the urban water bottle cage.  It attached to your bike when the usual water bottle carrier would go and held a Gov't .45      ;D

Don,
It must be a wood or board track to be dismantled.  They are the fastest surface to ride on.  One that I raced on was 13 laps to the mile and had 48˚ banks through the turns. At racing speeds you are doing a lap every 10 or 12 seconds.  I was a spectator at the last Six-Day bike race held in the old Madison Square Garden in 1961.  Racing on the small, steeply banked track always seemed to me to be the most exciting for spectators.  There wasn't a bad seat anywhere and you could see all the action.  It was once popular in the U.S. but hasn't been in some time. There are currently plans to try to bring Six Day racing back to the U.S. ...  I think late "09  or early '10.

I miss the simplicity of track bikes.  One gear, no coasting, no brakes, not much to break or fix.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2009, 05:32:16 AM by John C »

Offline muldoon

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Re: Joggers
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2009, 01:59:50 PM »
(BTW...I have to say that the kings of courteous driving live in rural mid Texas. I used to drive long distances through there and very frequently as I came up behind a slower driver, they would pull over onto the shoulder and slow down so that I could easily pass!!! What the heck was that about? )

in rural Texas everyone is armed.  makes for friendly people. 

 

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