Two misc. questions...joists and roofing.

[NM_Shooter]

I'm sketching out options, and have a question about hanging the joists for the sleeping loft floor.


1)
Is there a type of Simpson hanger that I can attach to the top plate to hang a joist in line with a wall stud, or do I need to have a ledger board?  I am planning on 2X4 walls, and really don't want to "let" them in at all. 

I am also considering using a 2x6 as a base plate, 2X4 stud, and then on each stud placing another 2X4 vertical stud coming up to support a ledger if necessary.  I'd rather do this with a hanger if possible.

2) 
I think I am going to use an 8' wall height, and a 12:12 pitch in order to get good snow shedding and headroom for the sleeping loft.  I have never roofed anything steeper than a 5:12.  This will be a metal roof.  Any tips on staying safe / getting the job done fairly quickly while roofing this steep a pitch?

Thanks,

Frank

[MountainDon]

I would not want to let in a ledger in a 2x4 stud.
I believe it used to be done with 1x's being used as the ledger. 

It seems to me that simply placing the ceiling/loft floor joists on top of the upper wall plates would be simpler and very strong, especially if the walls are to be 8 ft height anyway. OMMV

Any particular reason for using 2x4 wall studs instead of 2x6, Frank?

[MountainDon]

Two ways to stay safe when roofing any 12:12 roof.
   A.  using safety harnesses, etc... such as...   Harness Kit   one set per person on the roof.


   B.  My preferred system for safety and such steep roofs,
... hiring the job out to someone else with their own insurance. 
   (ask for proof of insurance)

[peternap]

I agree with Don. Just lay them on the plates. You could use hangers but it would just bump up the cost.

I don't like working on 12/12 Roof's. It has to be done though. I also don't like to use a harness unless I'm working alone. Something else to trip over.

The biggest safety advice I could give is use plenty of roof jacks but since you are doing metal that's out and you have to go with safety tip number 2......DON'T FALL.

[NM_Shooter]

I think that the idea of placing the joists on the top plate is a better idea. 

I want to use 2X4 as it will make the wall panels a bit more manageable I think.  My plan is to build the wall sections here at my house.  I'll frame 8' lengths of wall section, and sheet the top half with OSB.  Two sheets of OSB would put them outside the comfortable carrying capacity of two men (if I am one of them ).  An 8' wall section with a window in the middle with one panel of OSB should weigh about 140lbs I think.  I'm going to pre-sheet the top half as that would be the difficult one to lift up into place. 

Putting the joists for the loft on top of the plates means that some of the wall sections will be framed below 8' I guess.  This way, when I put the joists down onto the top plates, I can run another top plate across the joists to make it even with the 8' sections.  I'm going to use 2X6 on 16" for loft joists, with a center support for the 16' span.

Do you need cripple studs (is that the right term?) along side of the joists since wood does not have a lot of compression strength along its width?

I would like to have a little head room in the loft, so I am considering the 12:12.  I could put 24" pony walls on top of the loft trusses, and acheive the same head height with a 9:12, but I would be putting a hinge into the wall section.  I'm guessing that the pucker factor of a 12:12 is not that much more than a 9:12.

I also suspect that I am overthinking this.   

[Redoverfarm]

I have also seen "chicken ladders" constructed to work 12/12 roofs. Two ladders joined at the ridge to go down both slopes.  If it were done without interuptions on either side of the roof you could work both sides of the roof by alternating sides during the installation. They have been used for years and without very few accidents, Those that did occur was usually done by moving them rather than working from them. Bolted 2X material to the sides of aluminum ladders then headers attached to each ladder and them the headers bolted together. Start at one end of the roof and slide and work your way to the other end.

Of course ther is the nailing of cleats which is slow but effective.  You would have to keep pulling them up and nailing them behind you. You will be surprised what a piece of 3' or 4' 2X  material with 2 -16d nails will hold /

NM I would re-think the 2X6 part and graduate to at least a 2X8. Not as much deflection.  I used 4X8 on 16' span(non supported) and you still get a little bounce.  

[MountainDon]

As for 2x4 framed wall sections weighing less than 2x6 framed sections you are probably right. But 2x6's can be framed  on 24" centers instead of 16". Doing that, a quick rough calculation comes up with an increase in mass of about 22% using 2x6 @ 24 OC. Enough of an increase to be a bother. 

There's no danger of crushing the joists across the grain. Not unless you want to park your truck up there. 

Pucker factor: It's my own personal feeling that when using metal roofing, anything over 5:12 begins to feel terrible to be working on, so there's probably not a lot of difference between 9:12 and 12:12 as far as that goes.

Would you refresh my memory Frank, is your site, like mine, enough out of the way that concerns about code requirements are not of great concern. I ask because those 2x4 walls will need extra insulation in the form od exterior foam panels to meet NM's energy conservation codes. The bldg dept doesn't care if you simply plan on throwing an extra log or two on the fire. 

Ditto John's comment on the 2x6 joists. With a center support wall 2x6 would be okay. I missed that and was thinking 16 ft clear span.

[MountainDon]

Putting the joists for the loft on top of the plates means that some of the wall sections will be framed below 8' I guess.   

I'm not sure I understand this. 

[NM_Shooter]

Redover.... I like that idea very much about the ladders!  That is exactly the trick I needed to hear.  Once I get the sheets of metal positioned and screwed at the ridge, i can position the ladders over the top and screw right through the ladder.  I can still put a harness on, just need to figure out a good anchor point.  I'll need to think about drilling hole placement beforehand so as to not obstruct on the ladder rungs.  Now if I could just figure out how to get the felt up.  Got any ladder tricks for that?  I suspect that will be harness time too.  Re: the joists... I will only be spanning 8', as I will have a center support.  Do you think the 2X6 will be spongy?  But 2X8 would be better, and still give me 7' headroom under the joists.  Okay.. I am convinced, I'll go 2X8.  

Yes, I am very remote.  i won't be pulling permits, as I don't think I could pay an inspector enough to come up and take a look.  That being said though, I want to be structurally in compliance.  This won't be a winter cabin, so another log on the fire will be my solution!

Re the wall height, I am going to have 8' high walls.  One loft is over the back half of the cabin.  In order to match the top plate height of the center of the cabin, the back half wall height will need to be 8' minus the width of the joists.  I should quit being lazy and post some section dwgs to make this more clear.  I'm trying to keep my ridge height to a reasonable dimension, and since I am pulling wall panels up while they are laid flat on a trailer, my options for height are limited.

BTW Don... I had to laugh when I saw your pucker threshold at 5:12, as that is exactly mine as well.  Why the heck do they grease galvalume?  

[MountainDon]

Re the wall height, I am going to have 8' high walls.  One loft is over the back half of the cabin.  In order to match the top plate height of the center of the cabin, the back half wall height will need to be 8' minus the width of the joists. 

Maybe.

As I envision this...

First the wall sections are erected. All 8 ft high. The prefabbed sections have a sole plate and a single top plate. Once erected the upper top plate is nailed in place to tie things together.

Now... loft at both ends...
Open cathedral ceiling in the middle.
Beams of some kind across the open central area to keep the walls from spreading (4 ft spacing).
Loft joists have support beam/wall more or less in the middle of their span. (2x6, 24" OC should be good to span 8 ft with only a sleeping loft load, although 2x8 don't cost that much more and would definitely have less give/bounce.)

Looking at one loft end now...
Loft joists sit on top of the wall top plate.
Roof rafters also sit on top wall plate (with birdsmouth cuts) and are nailed to joists and top plates.
(Loft joist ends may have to have upper edge angle cut off so as to not stick above rafter top edge.)

In the center cathedral ceiling area the roof rafters continue straight across to meet up at the other loft. The rafters are all the same. These rafters would be nailed to the open beams and to the top plates. Every other rafter would just be nailed to the top plate, probably using H1's as well.

So the sidewalls could be the same height for their entire length.

Or maybe I'm missing something... 

[MountainDon]

Questions for you, Frank...

Are you planning on installing a ceiling of some kind under the loft joists or using something like 2x T&G for the loft floor and leaving the underside exposed? Just curious.

And ditto, (curious)... how wide a 2x for rafters, meaning how much insulation in the roof?

Oh one more...    Your place is a little north of us (70 miles?) and 1100 feet higher. What's the summer daytime maximum temps like? (curious again). In July/Aug, for maybe up to 6 weeks we get up around 90 F for a couple hours. But if there's some clouds moving over we can virtually watch the temperature rise and fall. The 90's is why I want 2x6 R18 walls and about R40 (blown in cellulose) in the ceiling (no loft, 5:12 pitch roof...  and a R25 floor.

...and when it rains we can watch the temp plummet. 

[NM_Shooter]

Hi Don, I think I know what you are suggesting, and I believe it will work well.  I had not considered placing the roof rafters between the loft joists.  I need to think about that some more...

Temps in the summer can get up into the low 90's, but just for a little while.  It cools off hard at night.  We've been in that area and have had July freezes at night!  You know how it is here.. you get in the shade, and you are good to go.  I'm building a big porch, but if I am near the cabin mid day and the sun is out, something is wrong.  Rain and blowing can drop temps to 40 in 30 minutes or less. 

I really don't know yet about the roof rafters... I was envisioning using a 2X10 for a ridge beam, and 2X8 for rafters.  I've been playing with furniture / appliance layout and feature creep has pushed this to 20 X 24, with a 8:12 pitch.  Decking for the sleeping loft to be 3/4" T&G sheeting.  No ceiling under loft, all exposed. Ceiling in cabin probably to be 2X6 T&G, or resawn 2X8.  Rustic is fine.  Now that I'm looking at layouts, it appears that my wall sections will be 10' long and 12' long to accomodate window placement. 

I am trying to get a plan as quickly as possible as I want to start building jigs in my yard for wall sections.  I'll have to hit the ground running once May gets here.

Do you have time for lunch on Wednesday or Thursday?  I could meet you at Twisters in Rio Rancho if you have time to hash ideas.  My treat for lunch....

-f-

[MountainDon]

something like this... except a steeper roof pitch. This is my 5:12



Thursday would be okay for lunch at Twisters if 12:30 - 12:40 is okay for you.

Don

[tc-vt]

For the work on the 12/12 pitch roof - see if any guys that work for a local roofing company want some extra work on the weekend. 

I got three guys here to do my screwed-in metal 12/12 roof.  They did the roof on my 30x20 in northern VT in mid-late November - cold enough where the caulk wouldn't come out of the tube.   When I asked them what they wanted for lunch all they kept saying was 'beer', hot dogs? 'beer', steaks? 'beer.'  Aside from the beer, I'm fairly sure they were stoned, too, as they worked on this roof.  They finished the last bit of sheathing, placed about half of the water and ice shield and screwed in the metal in two days at around six hours a day.  They took the time to check the square and scabbed on an additional 2x on the floating rafter on one end to square the roof.  I believe roofers are a different breed.

Tom

[PEG688]

  I believe roofers are a different breed.

You got that right.

A buddy of mine was once interviewed to be a roofing company lead guy / organizer/  ram rod type dude was told during the interview by the business owner/ wife ( she was the bookkeeper / owner type lady) , that , "Roofers aren't "people" like us , so never treat them as such!"   

So yes they are "different" 

[Redoverfarm]

Just a little "food for thought" regarding metal roofing.  A roofing contractor told me that he will not install metal if the temps are below 40F.  The factory echos this also.  It has to do with the contraction of the metal.  Stands to reason if you have ever looked at the expansion joints on bridges at different temps (high & low) as there is considerable difference.

[Willy]

Just a little "food for thought" regarding metal roofing.  A roofing contractor told me that he will not install metal if the temps are below 40F.  The factory echos this also.  It has to do with the contraction of the metal.  Stands to reason if you have ever looked at the expansion joints on bridges at different temps (high & low) as there is considerable difference.

I hear a lot about this problem but most of the time it is not told the temp you install something is important on gaps ect. If something is at or close to maxium temps it will be expanded allready and if you put gaps in it will have BIG gaps when it cools down. Same goes for no gaps when cold it will bunch up when it gets hot. PVC Fencing is a good one for a excample. The want a 1/4" gap on 16" long rails for this reason but you need to figure your min and max temps and also know the temp when you put it in to set gaps that work right. If it is a hot summert day in the sun don't put a gap cause in the winter it will pull the rails out of the posts. If it is a cold day and you don't put a 1/4 inch gap it will bend up and form "S" Shapes in the rails. Same for gates you build out of rails they will lift and drop as temps change. I havbe 1,800 ft of 3 rail fence I put in on my place. I can hear it pop and squeak as it warms up. My 16 ft gate lifts up during the summer and drops in the winter. I knew of this problem installing lot of PVC Fence and adjusted for it. I had a latch on the gate so it was important to figure expansion due to it lifts or drops 1/2" or more. I put a slite up rack in it cause I built the gate in the summer this way when I hung it it was setting in the latch and would just be heavy in the latch during the winter. It does float a little during the hottest days even after 6 years of being hung. I built a tight gate and solid filled concrete posts. So the gaps they want you to put in plywood ect to me depend on what the temp is putting it in and at what temp it will be at most of the time later. So a nice hot sunny day I don't think you need a gap on roof plywood when installed but a real cold day maybe it makes a difference. Mark

[lonelytree]

I have also seen "chicken ladders" constructed to work 12/12 roofs. Two ladders joined at the ridge to go down both slopes.  If it were done without interuptions on either side of the roof you could work both sides of the roof by alternating sides during the installation. They have been used for years and without very few accidents, Those that did occur was usually done by moving them rather than working from them. Bolted 2X material to the sides of aluminum ladders then headers attached to each ladder and them the headers bolted together. Start at one end of the roof and slide and work your way to the other end.

I hate to bring up the dead but this is the perfect post.

I have a 12/12 roof. I ran into a guy that does alot of remote roofing jobs. He told me about the placement of ladders like in this quote. He also said to put 30# roofing paper under the metal.... VERTICALLY... with a bit more overlap than normal. He said that the ladders work very well and safely. No leaks on 50+ projects. Use carpet on the bottom of the ladders for the last piece and end caps to prevent scratching.

Has anyone used tar paper vertically? Reasons to NOT do this?

Thanks,
Mike

[considerations]

Chicken ladders and vertical 30# paper with big overlaps happened on my 12/12 cabin roof.  I hired it done, and have never seen paper go on vertically, but then, I was smuggly standing on the ground feeling safe, and wasnt' going to tell those two up there in harnesses what to do. 

[MountainDon]

I suspect that when done on a 12/12 roof, with the roofing felt overlaps not being in the same area as the panel laps joints there would be little danger of water getting through to the roof sheathing. It doesn't seem like the right thing to do, but it probably works in these cases.

[Don_P]

I papered this normally then the roofers rolled red rosin paper vertically as a slip sheet. They are using a ladder with a ridge hook to stand on. My ridge hook has a wheel on the backside so I can roll the top of the ladder up the roof, flip it over and it's there. Duct tape the mess out of the hook or foam pad it. I've done vertical paper, didn't care for it but it's still working. I work like they are, off the sheet except for the last one.

This is a true standing seam job. They arrive at the jobsite pulling a forming machine. The back of the truck has a coil of flat sheet metal that rolls thru the forming machine and is bent to make the standing seam profile at whatever length they need, it then cuts it off. They install it on the roof with clips on the right of the pan in the picture. A motorized crimper then runs down the seam, rolling and locking the crimp. That roof cost more than my house.

If its pucker factor, I've got shots of an 18/12 here somewhere, my feet still ain't right.

One other thing I noticed on this thread, temperature doesn't have much effect on wood dimension like it does on metal or plastic, moisture change is the prime mover of wood. For screw down metal think about what thermal movement is doing to those screwholes.

I've installed Fabral's click down standing seam, nice product. They have come out with a PV standing seam that is wired under the ridgecap, looks pretty cool. The homeowner of the job above has talked about installing the peel and stick PV panels on that roof.

Don't tie your safety rope to the bumper of the wife's car.