Deer Run- 16x26 in Oklahoma

ScottA · May 28, 2008, 07:11:29 PM

Took a few pics today. Not alot of progress but still creeping along. I needed a break after framing and roofing.

This is entry to the cabin from the hiway. I Started putting down gravel for the drive. Thats the glare from the rocks. I got 7 tons of washed creek gravel to spead on the drive and around the cabin for walk paths. It looks great in the forest enviroment.

Got all the felt on the lower walls. Also built the bump out for the kitchen window.

Laid out the stones for the rest of the deck. Deck is the next project. I need to get it done so the wood can weather all summer and be ready for stain by fall.

We built a small fire pit SE of the veranda. It works really well. I've been burning dead branches that we cleaned up around the cabin.

Willy · May 28, 2008, 07:22:32 PM

Boy it is sure green around your cabin. Gonna be a lot of leaves to rake in the fall! I am not used to that much geen here in Eastern Washington. Looks good but you better get pounding on those nails winter is around the corner(5 months and snow for us again) even tho summer is not here yet? Mark

May 28, 2008, 07:31:46 PM

I've been dealing with leaves for years, our current place is just as bad. I'll get handle on it by fall. The plan is to have the exterior 100% complete by October. I don't see any problem doing it by then.

glenn kangiser · May 28, 2008, 07:42:50 PM

Looks great, Scott. Nice beginning of a rain screen wall.

Redoverfarm · May 28, 2008, 08:55:00 PM

Looking good Scott. But as they say " no rest for the weary". I hate to get bogged down on one phase but that usually happens. I did get the platform built on the roof to finish the stone on the top of the chimney yesterday. Was going to parge but it was intermitent rain showers and I didn't want to get stuck up there in a downpour with a whole bunch of mortar mixed up. I did get it today in the afternoon after the rain as well as some of the grout on the inside while it rained this morning. Using a grout bag I know what a pastry chef feels like now. RPIA. And I am just beginning.

May 28, 2008, 11:51:25 PM

Scott, looks really pretty there - I really like what you are doing with the cabin - that deck will really give you lots of extra room, too. I like the felt better that the house wrap - after seeing how fast the house wrap breaks down & other problems with it, I wouldn't want to use it but it's all the rage.

ScottA · May 29, 2008, 07:47:09 AM

Thanks. I never liked house wrap either. I think it's one of those products that marketing made popular. Felt is time tested and proven to work. Yes it crinkles a little when it gets wet but it keeps the water out.

glenn kangiser · May 29, 2008, 11:26:20 AM

Many houses have mold problems - many houses and apartments torn down due to house wrap. Never heard of one with felt.

Willy · May 29, 2008, 11:43:41 AM

Quote from: ScottA on May 29, 2008, 07:47:09 AM
Thanks. I never liked house wrap either. I think it's one of those products that marketing made popular. Felt is time tested and proven to work. Yes it crinkles a little when it gets wet but it keeps the water out.

I may be wrong here but the way it was explained to me felt does not breath but keeps water out. The house wrap will let air thru to breath but not the water molicules(air molicules are smaller then water). I have had the house wrap on my place for 13 years so far and I can see it on the attic end walls. It has not broke down, no moisture problems, no mold ect. I see no mold on walls on my home, no problem heating the home with 3 1/2 cords a year. I have no moisture problems inside my house. Some of the problems with house wrap may be that it was exposed to the weather/sun to long before cover? I do know that even 30 lb felt will wrinkel up, shrink back and pull off the stapples and lose it petrolium base in the sun real quick! The 30 lb felt I put down on my cabin roof went to crap in just a couple weeks before I had a chance to put the metal over it. It pulled loose from the stapples, wrinkled up and tore because it shrunk and pulled off the stapples all over the areas exposed to the sun. Mark

This is a interesting artical that tested different products and gives reasons why some work and some do. This is not testing done by the manufacture but indipendent. Good reading!
http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/publications/articles/housewraps_feltpaper_weather_penetration_barriers.html

May 29, 2008, 02:38:06 PM

That's a good artical Mark. They seem to feel felt and house wrap are both effective. When I was researching rain screen walls the one thing I noticed repeatedly being stressed was that the drainage plane be as air tight as possible. This is best accomplished by starting with solid ridged sheathing which will block airflow. This should be covered with a non permiable waterproofing. There are some specialty products designed just for rain screens but they are expensive and not readily available. Based on what I had read I decided #30 felt was the most cost effective option. 2 layers where recomended saying the performance was better and less likely to leak around fasteners. Also the inner layer is protected so it's unlikely to deteriorate even with prolonged exposure to the sun. I don't have much of an issue with the sun anyway since my site is very shady and the overhangs shade the walls most of the day.

I could not find any one solid source for rainscreen info but they have been used for many decades in europe with a felt and batten method similar to what I'm using. I'm of the opinion that wood will last longest if it can breath so keeping the siding away from the inner wall makes alot of sense to me. There are lots of methods for making rainscreen walls. The one I'm doing is called an open joint rainscreen. The siding will actually have gaps between the boards rather than fitting tightly together. To my mind this will encourage rapid drying after rains. So what if some water gets passed the siding it will just drain out the bottom.

As for the wall itself I'm hoping to keep moisture out of the wall completly by having vapor barriers on both sides and making sure it's dry when it's closed up. Maybe more info than anyone wanted to read but I wanted to share my thinking on the matter. I think the advantage of house wrap is that it will allow a wall to dry out even if closed up wet as is common in production new construction. If you have the time to let the frame dry out before closing the wall I doubt it has any advantage over felt.

Redoverfarm · May 29, 2008, 04:13:43 PM

Scott I often wondered about two other products. One of which I am not sure but it has proved to be superior in the roof underlayment and that is Titaninum Felt. IMO this is far better than felt for the roof with extended uncovered exposure of 12-18 months. Mine was on for about 6 months and never a hint of failure. It has the UV protection. But it should be installed with button nails vs. roofing or staples.

The other which might be cost prohibitive would be the ice guard or storm guard. The ice guard is far more superior IMO but it is self healing so that any pentetration by nails would not be a problem. The ease of installation would also be good that it is self adhesive until you can permanently attach with nails.

When I did my addition I used a product by Styrofoam which appeared to be far better than convientional house wrap. About 3-4 times the thickness and was more flexible. Yes it was more expensive about $150 a roll for 9' but a solid builder swore by it's performance. I don't know exactly the name and wouldn't tear my siding off to get it but it's blue in color and is sort of foam backed product.

Just thought I would throw this out if someone wanted to invest a little more than usual.

glenn kangiser · May 29, 2008, 10:57:32 PM

The wrinkling of the felt is one thing that causes it to drain water away. If it is wet for an extended period of time then it turns into a wick and wicks the moisture away. When it is gone it dries out and goes back to it's old wrinkly self. This is great if there happens to be an unexpected leak.

House wraps will vent vapor but if improperly installed or punctured and water gets through, then there is no way for it to get out and that seems to be the main source of problems.

Surfactants - soap - pressure washing- oil - dirt - cedar and redwood natural oils can all cause failure of the house wrap chemicals allowing penetration of water.

If you do use housewrap, then the screenwall as Scott is doing will allow drainage and help keep the water from being forced into it.

mvk · May 30, 2008, 12:20:24 PM

Scott

QuoteAs for the wall itself I'm hoping to keep moisture out of the wall completly by having vapor barriers on both sides and making sure it's dry when it's closed up.

What's your outer vapor barrier the felt? I thought that that wasn't a vapor barrier and that's why it worked so well? I'm not trying to split hairs here just want to know. You can't give to much info as far as I'm concerned and as I've said before.

Also I thought that you shouldn't have a inner and outer vapor barrier? I've always thought that they were to hard to do 100% and that's where you got in trouble?

Mike

PS anybody else ever try to put on that grace water shield on a hot sunny day with a good wind by their selves

. talk about a tar baby

ScottA · May 30, 2008, 01:22:42 PM

Felt is a vapor barrier to a degree but like all things it's not absolute. Water can soak through it and evaporate on the opposite side. The wetter it is the more it lets pass. But this happens very slowly. Thats how it keeps the rain out. As for not having an inner and an outer barrier I've seen it argued both ways. I'll let you know how it works out in a few years. LOL

May 30, 2008, 05:09:59 PM

thanks scott
Hopefully a few years will be to late

ScottA · June 14, 2008, 04:56:44 PM

Got started on the deck framing this week. I also put hurricane ties inside on the rafters at the plates. Work's been busy so building progress is slow. I'm hoping to get more done next week. Lots to get done before winter.

ScottA · June 17, 2008, 05:57:11 PM

More deck progress pics. Yes that is plumbing pipe inside the front door. Did I mention I hate plumbing?

Redoverfarm · June 17, 2008, 06:43:40 PM

Like your deck supports outside the front door.

glenn kangiser · June 18, 2008, 12:09:48 AM

Scott, how can you hate plumbing? Your daddy make you do it?

ScottA · June 18, 2008, 08:12:46 AM

After 25 years it gets old Glen.

You could say it's dad's fault since he didn't leave me millions in a trust fund. That's ok though I didn't leave my kids millions either.

June 18, 2008, 01:23:39 PM

I guess I can understand that -- and the pipes -- so brain intensive making sure all the right stuff goes to all the right places and all...

ScottA · June 18, 2008, 07:10:08 PM

It's all good, I'm getting out in about 2 years or less anyways. I'm already picking and choosing what jobs I do. This cabin is my ticket to freedom.

My brother has been comming by the cabin a lot lately and looking things over. Well yesterday he comes with a sketch of a house he wants to build. Is construction contagious? I told him to check out some of John's plans before he commits to anything. He has helped me exactly 0 hours on this job so far. How much you want to bet he wants my help come time to build his?

And I'm just sucker enough to do it is the sad part.

glenn kangiser · June 18, 2008, 10:37:13 PM

I've been doing the same - picking jobs.

The illegals are coming in here - welding for $10 or so per hour. Knocking the bottom out of the business - then the guy they are working for doesn't have a clue on pricing so he is bidding major jobs at as little as 1/3 of the going rate. I heard he ate one big and started raising his price some, so either he will come up to a competitive price to stay in business or go broke.

Unfortunately I don't think he will get to any standard reasonable pricing system, as he doesn't know what he is doing -- just pulls numbers out of his hat -- or possibly someplace a couple feet lower, so I will stay home rather than try to beat him. He can't go on forever but he believes turning over large amounts of money and massive quantities of work is a good substitute for making a profit.

I confirmed that that was what is happening with a project manager for a big steel co. so it isn't just me, which is some satisfaction, in fact he brought their name up.

ScottA · June 18, 2008, 11:10:58 PM

I see the same sort of things Glen. Another one I run into alot is the change order contractors. They will underbid a job on purpose because they can see things that are wrong on the plans and they know they will be able to charge for them later on a change order. Usually the change order rates are 1000% or more higher than the bid rates. So they bid the job way low and wait for the greed to kick in then they stick it to the general contractor and the owner.

glenn kangiser · June 18, 2008, 11:37:15 PM

I was on a job with one of them doing concrete -- gave us permission to drive over his rebar to get the\access our contract required, borrowed our equipment - reach lift etc. often - didn't bring hi own equipment - then back charged us, the general and another a combined $5000 to repair after he did it and never allowed us the option to fix the $200 or so worth of bent bars.

I advertise for him whenever I can.