Fullcut vs nominal cut lumber and codes

OlJarhead · March 09, 2016, 06:34:56 PM

I read recently that in some areas of the country inspectors will allow the use of fullcut lumber in place of stamped nominal lumber but can't seem to find any rules in Washington. Anyone out there know where to look?

It's more a curiosity than anything else because I've heard this before and didn't bother looking it up but recently watching a video on portable milling I heard this again. Fullcut (actual dimension) lumber is said to be 25% stronger which is why it is often approved.

Anyone?

MountainDon · March 09, 2016, 07:39:27 PM

Do a search on Native Lumber Laws..... FWIW, some of the NE states have allowances made for that sort of thing.

March 10, 2016, 09:21:57 AM

Wish we could get enough support for this to pass in TN.

NathanS · March 10, 2016, 10:19:03 AM

NYS allows non-graded lumber.

MountainDon posted this link in the code subforum.

http://www.jlconline.com/how-to/framing/new-york-state-no-grade-stamp-needed_o

Summary is that NYS has never had an issue with non-graded wood, and that apples to apples the quality is better from the local mills than #2 grade at the big box stores.

It is unreal how regulated everything is. The state has to take an active stance to allow wood to be sold without government oversight.

Don_P · March 10, 2016, 08:14:51 PM

Grading sorts wood into strength classes that the architects and engineers then use to design a building. Grading under the current scheme came about in the 20's because we were moving wood and designs around without really having a uniform product to build with, like everything, seemed like a good idea. Although the enabling language from that time said it was not to economically disadvantage small mills, it gutted them.

I had a grader from the largest grading agency, where I trained, inform the roomful of building officials that wood from small sawmills is generally well above #2. But, they walked out halfway through the class and said no. Rather than educating them and helping the situation it slammed the door. The way to change it is to work towards it prior to a code adoption cycle in the state legislature. It is a state code amendment. It can fit under alternative means or by exemption.

One thing I've noticed engineeringwise when showing sawyers how to do the math, if #2 doesn't work, the grade of the same stick changes... I also went to Lowes during grading school and took a handful of commercial off grade lumber into class. First thing the instructor did after failing it was check to make sure it wasn't theirs. I can see both sides. There should be some level of training, just because someone is sawing doesn't mean they are making lumber. The grading manual isn't small and you don't really learn how from a book. It isn't rocket science either.

Full dimension lumber requires different fasteners, if the nail isn't long enough the wood ceases to matter. Generally the connections are what fails... tried that with the inspectors too

. There's an old thread on FF from my experience.

March 10, 2016, 10:34:03 PM

I will have to check FF too. Seems to me a good small mill sawyer can make much better lumber than what you can buy. I try to keep knots in the middle of the lumber and often mill clear stuff as a matter of course.

Scotdark · March 11, 2016, 10:41:52 AM

Inspectors.....we don't need no stinking insnspectors

zion-diy · March 16, 2016, 12:39:39 PM

Our house that we built in 2005 was framed entirely with sawmill lumber. As of this summer, (2015) still standing and just fine. On a side note, we built it using only screws... no nails.

firefox · March 16, 2016, 02:13:05 PM

What kind of screws?

March 17, 2016, 07:29:17 AM

I think we've plowed this ground before. If you do use screws instead of nails in any of the structural connections, check the box for an approval for structural use, usually there will be an "ESR" number on the box. Those structural screws have their place and are very useful. I've run ledgerlock screws into oak timbers to hold chains and come-alongs while straightening old buildings. They will bend into impressive shapes but I've very rarely broken or withdrawn one.

Typical screws are brittle and fail in load bearing without warning...as one of my helpers who screwed the toeboards to the roof and then took a trip can attest. Do not build brittle structures . You want any structure to fail in a ductile manner, bending, visibly distorting, fasteners howling. Brittle structures just go "whump".

firefox · March 17, 2016, 04:58:16 PM

Thanks Don, I was hoping you would chime in. I like to use screws, but knew
about the brittle issue. Now I know how to select screws that are suitable for
structural use.

MushCreek · March 18, 2016, 06:16:27 AM

The house I grew up in is still standing, and it was built with un-graded lumber.... in 1760.

rick91351 · March 18, 2016, 08:18:48 AM

Quote from: MushCreek on March 18, 2016, 06:16:27 AM
The house I grew up in is still standing, and it was built with un-graded lumber.... in 1760.

I so agree. Yet much - so much more of the story is how that said house was treated over the years and years.

However the lumber and timber is not the same today as it was in yester-year. I have seen so many changes in lumber and even trees skidded to the landing in my life time. Trees that would have been left laying or bunched and burned in the slash piles of fifty years ago now are hauled off to the mills. Short cycle trees from the timber plantations are poor excuses for the trees used in your 1760's model home. However with the current foundation codes and practices chances are a few of today's homes even with there shoddy lumber will be around for a year or two.

Sidebar: Today from what I see lots of homes in the old parts of town. The premium house sites being recycled for bigger and better. Two names you might recognize. Albertson of the food stores and JR Simplot their houses are no more. Neither was build shoddy by the way, but Albertson's home was needed for bigger and better. Simplot's home because it was given to the state after JR Simplots death for the governor's dwelling. Proved to big and the grounds were not affordable to keep up so it was returned to the corporation and it was pulled down very recently.

SouthernTier · March 22, 2016, 11:46:52 AM

Quote from: NathanS on March 10, 2016, 10:19:03 AM
NYS allows non-graded lumber.

MountainDon posted this link in the code subforum.

http://www.jlconline.com/how-to/framing/new-york-state-no-grade-stamp-needed_o

Summary is that NYS has never had an issue with non-graded wood, and that apples to apples the quality is better from the local mills than #2 grade at the big box stores.

It is unreal how regulated everything is. The state has to take an active stance to allow wood to be sold without government oversight.

Yes, and No. I am somewhat on pins an needles regarding this.

This post in my cabin design thread is about how I got a local tree milled up to joists that I will need. I am hoping this NYS reg will help me. However, if you read the link above and other places I've researched, it says that

QuoteNew York State allows sawmills to self certify lumber. It is up to the local building inspector to allow it or not. There is a form that the sawmillers would fill out which said they certified it for general construction purposes.

I don't have any such form from the sawmiller, so I'm not sure how it will turn out. I am building in a pretty rural area, so I hope they won't be too tough. I also got enough boards to install them at a greater frequency than the codes allow to add some redundancy. They would just be holding up the floor in the loft of the cabin. We'll see when I ever get to starting the cabin (just about a year of college tuition payments to go for my second kid, after that I should be able to swing the cash flow).