Author Topic: Another controversial subject 40 or 45 cal.  (Read 4809 times)

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Offline rick91351

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Another controversial subject 40 or 45 cal.
« on: March 22, 2013, 09:00:35 PM »
Controversial subject I have been pondering.  I think my 9MM is to light weight for a defensive pistol even though it is a nice weapon.  Just not a lot of power.  I am going to 'let my wife use it'   :D Then on the other hand if it is not good enough for me to carry why would it be good enough for her?   ???   So 40 or 45 cal that is the controversial question I would like to throw out there.  I know it is going where Angles fear to tread.  Right up there with '06 vs 270.  7MM Mags vs 300 Mags
Proverbs 24:3-5 Through wisdom is an house builded; an by understanding it is established.  4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.  5 A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.

Offline Windpower

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Re: Another controversial subject 40 or 45 cal.
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2013, 04:11:43 AM »


300 WBY Mag

45 ACP 
Often, our ignorance is not as great as our reluctance to act on what we know.

Offline Bob S.

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Re: Another controversial subject 40 or 45 cal.
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2013, 09:53:55 AM »
I was told by a wise old guy that you need a gun that makes noise for self protection. As a person that is trying to do you harm will not get the point if your gun sounds to wimpy. I have had a nice 45 colt for over 40 years for just that task.

Offline NM_Shooter

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Re: Another controversial subject 40 or 45 cal.
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2013, 10:36:21 AM »
There was an interesting article in American Rifleman a few issues back about this, and I think that they said that from ballistic tests, that the 9mm was actually darn near perfect.  In terms of penetration and expended terminal energy, it hit the sweet spot.  Anybody else remember this article?
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Offline rick91351

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Re: Another controversial subject 40 or 45 cal.
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2013, 11:40:54 AM »
I was told by a wise old guy that you need a gun that makes noise for self protection. As a person that is trying to do you harm will not get the point if your gun sounds to wimpy. I have had a nice 45 colt for over 40 years for just that task.

Bob I guess I can not agree with your wise guys logic.  If you have to pull to shoot someone you are am not trying to deafen him.  However I do like your caliber but I have never really shot a 40 cal.   


There was an interesting article in American Rifleman a few issues back about this, and I think that they said that from ballistic tests, that the 9mm was actually darn near perfect.  In terms of penetration and expended terminal energy, it hit the sweet spot.  Anybody else remember this article?

As far as shooting in a range setting or for fun I like a 9MM hands down and agree with ballistics tests.  They are comfortable and economical to shoot.  However in the case of a 'gun fight' where you have to shoot to protect yourself or loved ones.  Hopefully and prayerfully it never would come to that but statistics show you are only at best half as good as you are at the range if you have to engage someone.

True a miss is a miss and that is not going to hurt the bad guy and in fact might even hurt a good guy.  But this same logic says with a 45 or 40 cal.  If you are not spot on - the damage from a 45 Long Colt or 45 ACP or the 'young up and coming' 40 cal. does often times disable or disarm the assailant. 
Proverbs 24:3-5 Through wisdom is an house builded; an by understanding it is established.  4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.  5 A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.

Offline UK4X4

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Re: Another controversial subject 40 or 45 cal.
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2013, 02:17:37 PM »
Just to up the anti

FN-57

5.7mm x 28mm

armor piercing - 20 round mag.

30% less recoil than a 9mm

30 round mags available.

Matapolicia in gang circles because of the ability to penetrate standard kevlar vests

Offline rick91351

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Re: Another controversial subject 40 or 45 cal.
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2013, 01:55:19 AM »
I have not read a lot about the five seven. 

I do know that several law enforcement agencies world wide are using them.  I do also read that the drug cartels like them a lot.  I also read - and as I have said not lot about the five seven.  Because they are small rounds like .224 in bullet diameter you do not have trauma unless you happen to find a bone.  There is greater chance the round will pass through unexpanded not causing the damage you need and that is required to stop an assailant.       

Plus playing the devils advocate.  Law enforcement and drug cartels really do not care how many times they pull the trigger.  In self protection or the protection of a loved one.  Often times with overzealous prosecutors, anti gun Grand Juries and some public sentiment - one can go way over over board or over the line with the once thought of shoot until they quite moving.  Defensive firearms training schools such as Front Sight train for two well placed rounds with a major caliber handgun or two quick hits to the thoracic cavity with a major caliber handgun.   With a minor caliber handgun, three to four quick hits to the thoracic cavity.  If the perpetrator is still armed and mobile with a sub-caliber handgun, three to four quick hits to the cranio-ocular cavity may be required.  While just one round round from a major caliber handgun to the same region.

Of course I am not wanting to advocate if there is a home invasion, or confrontation you have to take anyone's life.  If you can avoid it do so.  I have been involved in several fatal accidents with train - motor vehicles.  Not a day goes by I do not ask myself what if I would have.........  and I was honking the horn, had my lights on and people just never would yield.  The tapes all show I did everything I could have done and I and I am still left wondering.  Me and everyone else that stuff like that has occurred to ask a thousand time what if.....                               
Proverbs 24:3-5 Through wisdom is an house builded; an by understanding it is established.  4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.  5 A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.

Offline Carla_M

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Re: Another controversial subject 40 or 45 cal.
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2013, 09:20:05 AM »
Controversial subject I have been pondering.  I think my 9MM is to light weight for a defensive pistol even though it is a nice weapon.  Just not a lot of power.  I am going to 'let my wife use it'   :D Then on the other hand if it is not good enough for me to carry why would it be good enough for her?   

The perfect gun (caliber and frame size) is the one the user can use proficiently. No sense having a 1911 45Auto if the user can not handle it. I was fortunate to have an instructor with a large armory of assorted frame sizes and calibers. I do have a 45 ACP, but only because I inherited it. At up to 21 feet I am very very good with a 380 or a 9. With a 40 S&W I'm not as good and anything with more kick, forget it.   So maybe your wife would be best with a 9  ???  Hard to say what any of us should have without being able to try.  And the weight of the gun contributes to accuracy on repeat shots too.
The personal dietary habits of people kill more frequently than firearms. Eat healthy and carry a gun.

Offline rick91351

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Re: Another controversial subject 40 or 45 cal.
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2013, 07:01:37 AM »
Thanks for weighting in Carla M.  Ellen my wife - been around guns and shot a lot in the early part of her life.  Not so much after she met me.  However she is still a very good pistolero up to a old style 45 Long Colt.  True their design to roll with the recoil is way easier on the hands.  I have not discounted a revolver or revolvers though smaller in ammunition storage.

I did call my old buddy last night and he shoots all the time and a big wheel gun fan.  I asked him about the 40 Cal.  He told me, 'Gee Rick I just don't know.  I never shot one.'  I figured if anyone.......  Maybe this is not so controversial after all.   ???  SO I guess I will just have to go down to a public range here and rent one.   [waiting]
Proverbs 24:3-5 Through wisdom is an house builded; an by understanding it is established.  4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.  5 A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.

Offline Abbey

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Re: Another controversial subject 40 or 45 cal.
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2013, 04:42:36 AM »
I have a Beretta 9mm and have, in the past, owned a 44 mag. A friend of mine has a Glock 40 and it's nice, but I didn't care for the Glock, just me, he loves it to death. The 9mm is nice to shoot for all of the reasons you've pointed out, but if you are interested in pure stopping power the 45 is great, again it’s my opinion. When I have the money I'm getting a Sig Sauer P220 45 ACP. I have fairly small hands and spent a long time at a shop handling all of the different pistols from M1911, Glock, Smith & Wesson, and the Sig, just to name a few. The Sig felt the most comfortable. As for your concern with your wife, just have her practice with shooting various pistols and work up into higher calibers and allow her to choose the pistol she’s most comfortable with, it might be a 9 mm and it might be a 45.

Offline rick91351

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Re: Another controversial subject 40 or 45 cal.
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2013, 06:21:48 AM »
Well she scored a pistol - I did as well.  I thought I would trade in my Ruger P95 9MM.  I bought it at one of those Cabellas Christmas sales.  Never gave much for it might have been $400 but I really think less than that three or four years ago.  The trigger is not soft and gentle, from what I read they are all that way and pretty much will always be that way unless some gun smith machinist rebuilds it for big $$$.  It's appearance like most of the cheaper made 'plastic' pistols.  It never gets OOOHHHH! AAAHHHHed!!!  It never gets shot that much if at all.  It is just a gun.  It will never be one of those when you and your buddy are sitting around having a cup of Joe and he asked what happen to your P95?  Man I liked that gun....... So I had one of those soft moments when you think.  "Well it don't cost much to feed and water that old girl.  Pretty easy keeper."  So I hung on to it.  If things go to hell more than they are I can always barter it off. 

Now if the gun and ammo thing would hurry up and run its course so there is stuff back on the shelves........  Around here popular pistol and rifle ammo is nonexistent.  22 shells are going for twice as much if you can find them.   [waiting]
Proverbs 24:3-5 Through wisdom is an house builded; an by understanding it is established.  4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.  5 A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Another controversial subject 40 or 45 cal.
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2013, 06:44:30 AM »
I can't think of another combat veteran who would prefer 9mm over .45acp.

For me that's the kicker.

Sure some argue it's easier to to put more rounds on target with the 9mm (I can attest to that as a PMI in the USMC and Expert Pistol badge earner -- also had 9 Rifle Expert awards) but ask yourself this:  Why does SOG insist on .45ACP if the 9mm is as good?

Simple answer:  in combat the 9mm has proven time again to NOT be as affective as the .45ACP

.40S&W was developed by the FBI and S&W to try to bridge the gap between the shoot-ability of the 9mm and the 'knock down' force of the .45ACP -- so ask yourself:  Do I want something that approximates the effectiveness of the .45ACP or would I rather just have the .45ACP?

As for the .270 vs. 30-06 debate, there isn't really one.  After all the .270 is a flat shooting rifle that's excellent for deer and in the right hands can take a bear/elk etc.  While the 30-06 is an excellent rifle for pretty much any large game as well as small game when coupled with the accelerator round.  We have both, by the way, but my son prefers the 165grain bullets in the '06 over the 143gr 270's.

7mm vs 300mag?  The 7mm was used as a sniper rifle by the CIA while the 300mag was used by everyone else  - both are effective rifles (I use a 7mm by the way but because it was willed to me more then anything else) but I'd have to say the 300mag has more power for large game hunting.

In the end, however, it comes down to personal preference.  Chris Kyle (Navy Seal Sniper) used a number of different calibers depending on the purpose and in his arsenal were 5.56 rifles as well as 300's and 9mm pistols along with .40's and .45's.  Perhaps it's best to think about the shooter first, then the target.

As for wives, I prefer to start women on revolvers and ONLY consider semi-auto pistols for those with prior shooting experience (a fair amount) and the likelihood that they will do a lot more.  Why?  The revolver NEVER fails if it is well maintain (unless of course you put thousands of rounds through it first or buy a crappy one) while the semi-auto WILL fail.  It isn't a matter of IF either, it's just a matter of WHEN -- and this is why you MUST train to be proficient at clearing jams, stove pipes etc etc in an auto.

My wife carries a S&W 686 .357 Magnum.  It has a LOT more power then the 9mm, can be loaded nicely for any time of potential target and can be shot with .38spc all day long for practicing with it.  She has both Federal Hydroshocks and Glasier Safety Slugs for it -- it's also 7 shot.  Big gun but she loves it and it always works.  She also carries speed loaders though she doesn't practice enough with them.

I carry one of two pistols: 1.  In the woods I carry a 2000 Ruger Vaquero .45 COLT (that's the older .44 Magnum frame) with 360 grain hard cast Oregon Trail bullets coming out the barrel (actually 10 feet out) around 1100 fps.  These are good penetraters with LOTS of power and in bear and cougar country they are better then any smaller caliber and the .45ACP. 2.  For CCW I carry a Kimber Custom TLE II .45ACP -- my motto?  Why settle for 9mm when I can have .45ACP

I should also add that the average gun fight in the USA is at 10 feet, so as Patton said "train as you fight, all else is BS" and:  People who are shot with .38spc and 9mm (same more-or-less ballistically by the way) leave the hospital the same day, or the next normally.  Those shot with .45ACP are generally buried soon after.

Dead men tell no tales.

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Another controversial subject 40 or 45 cal.
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2013, 06:45:41 AM »
Forgot to add:  my Navy Seal neighbor and I were comparing battle rifles last year.  His?  Springfield Armory M1A Standard.  Mine?  Springfield Armory M1A Scout Squad.

Notice something?  Neither of these is a 5.56mm

Just sayin'

Offline Huge29

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Re: Another controversial subject 40 or 45 cal.
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2013, 06:35:24 PM »
You are all up in the night on the rifles, 300WSM is where it is at!
I took my wife to shoot an XD in the .40, I was looking at the subcompact 3" model.  That was way too much recoil, made worse by the light arm and short barrel.  It even annoyed me with the short clip to where the pinkie is just flapping in the wind; that really annoyed me.  if you really push it on the larger size it will be at the cost of accuracy and comfort.  If she is not comfortable with it it will not be used regardless of effectiveness, power, velocity, BC, PBD, Y2K, etc. 

Offline rick91351

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Re: Another controversial subject 40 or 45 cal.
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2013, 09:44:09 PM »
Your wife seems have run a foul of of that light weight concealed gun thing.

I hovered over several gun counters looking for the right gun after I wrote or started this thread.  I had never really had paid any attention to .40 Cal pistols.  But I do not pay much attention to pistols at all.  I am not a pistol guy at all.  However as I get older I am deciding I need to be a lot better with one.  Moving off to the sticks and getting older I have pretty well convinced myself the older we get the higher likelihood of a home invasion or some weird thing like that occurring.

My wife Ellen who was raised with guns of all types and shoots just about anything a lot better than I and I admit it.  But when she was like ten she was shooting black powder matches with her dad and mom and two brothers on weekends.  When we started dating at 18 she was telling me all about guns I have never heard of or knew existed.   ???    She pretty well intimadated the heck out of me.   :-[  She still out shoots me pretty constant from the range to big game.  Pistols she can shoot no problem from her dad's 1911 to my 45 Long Colt to my Ruger 9MM with the trigger that is a piece of jerky junk down to my 22 Ruger Convertible.  Yep I admit she pretty well takes me to the wood shed every time we go.  She does with long guns as well.  Her choice out of the gun safe believe it or not is a Remington '06 pump, no recoil pad and has iron sights to boot and she Annie Oakley's some nice deer.  So with that explained and I confess I am no Danial Boone nor Davy Crockett.....

So last Friday I/we shot a FNH USA in the FNS Model  .40 loaded with 180 grain HPs.  From what I understand it is the same weapon sold to law enforcement.  We also tried the same model in a 9MM only with jacketed 115 grain bullets that I had laying around.  Both frames are the same size and weight and both were equipped with trijicon sights.  Both are ambidextrous that is good for me because I'm a south paw.  I / we found there was not that much difference between the two shooting wise even with the 180 grain bullets.  You could feel the .40 had more power and just seemed to be more business like but was not jarring at all.  Ellen seems to think it would take some shooting to get on to either one of them if you were wanting to do any match shooting with them.   Trigger according to the books show 5.5 to 7.7 lbs that might warrant a trigger job.   We felt both were just a joy to shot.  They were easy to tear down and clean.  I like that because I am the tear down and clean guy.  We had no problems with feeding nor ejecting.  The 9MM has a 17 round magazine while the 40 stacks 14 rounds unless of course your state only allows 10.  They are not a cheap weapon at all.  Certainly not as high dollar as the 1911 but ......                                                                                                                                 
Proverbs 24:3-5 Through wisdom is an house builded; an by understanding it is established.  4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.  5 A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.

 

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