New cabin home questions

Started by TBoss, September 18, 2012, 07:48:26 PM

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TBoss

I'm new here and just found this website over the weekend.  Its been hard to tear myself away.
A big thanks to all those posting their stories and sharing information.  And a great big thanks to those respsonbile for the website.

My questions are probably a repeat of the same ol' same ol' and I have found some answers on here but thought I would ask anyway and introduce myself.

My wife and I have two sons, 3 and 11, and we have 4 acres of land free and clear in Missouri.  We are currently renting but want to get to the farm as soon as possible.  We have plans to build a house on that property down the road but for know we are considering a cabin, not sure of size yet, that might later become a guest house for extended family to come and visit.

The county we plan on building in does not have any housing regulations and for sewer a perc test is not required.  They only require a licensed contractor install it.  The land we have actually has city water nearby and electric as well.  So those two problems can be remedy quickly.

I've seen some pictures of Dave and Kim's 20x40 and it looks great!  So I'm thinking a 20x40, or 24x36 might be plenty of space for us.  The plan is to stay there for 2-3 years and eliminate debt (student loans, etc.)  Then start working on the plans for our home.
The 24x36 plan I found here.  http://www.cabininthewoods.us/cabin_models/Cabin_W_Loft.htm
This one specifially.  http://www.cabininthewoods.us/Images/LARGE_PLANS/9.jpg
with loft:  http://www.cabininthewoods.us/Images/LARGE_PLANS/9A.jpg

We would only have 1 bath though on the main floor.
I've guessed at some numbers for material costs but its hard to determine without more information or a parts list.
Has anyone built a cabin this size for 10k to 15k (enough to start living in it and finish it as you go)?  Im only interested in the material costs and dont factor in sewage.  No building permits or fees and no inspections.  This would be built out of pocket.  Im just curious if 10k to 15k would be enough money to get us started living in it.  Anyone have a similar experience they can share?

Thanks to all!
-Todd

flyingvan

My build counting materials for the structure only comes out to about $48 per square foot if that helps.  Lumber has gone up though since I started.  I think even 15K is a very low estimate.

Let's take a quick top down tour of your home.  We will pick one square foot.  We'll miss all framing, wiring, and plumbing, windows, appliances, fasteners, strong ties, adhesives, finishes, and paint,  so this'll be the least expensive square foot we can find.

Roofing--Compsite shingles, mid range quality   $1.02
30# felt                                                                  .12
OSB roof decking                                                   .56
R-19 insulation                                                       .33
Finished ceiling                                                      .50
Laminate flooring                                                  3.00
Stur-I-Floor                                                            1.50
Concrete                                                                2.00
______________________________________________
Total                                                                    $8.63 per square foot X 800 square feet = $6,904.

Add to that---whatever expenses to move your dirt around first, trench for utilities, run water/power/sewer/gas/phone, road access.

Wild A$$ guesses--

Framing lumber--if building to minimums---         $9,000
Sheer panel                                                         $400
Strong Ties                                                          $1500
Windows                                                              $3,500
Doors                                                                    $800
Insulation                                                             $500
Electrical /Fixtures                                                $2,000
Plumbing /fixtures                                                $2,000
Fasteners                                                                $450
Paint                                                                       $400
Trim                                                                        $350

   I think these numbers are VERY conservative.  With these numbers, assuming zero cost for tools or labor, I get over $25,000---still way below what I spent per square foot  at $31.25 for 800 square feet.

  I entered similar data in this cool online calculator    http://www.building-cost.net/CompMatrix.asp  and they say $98,000 for materials.  I think that's high.  Put in your own numbers---I'd be curious to see what you get                                                       
Find what you love and let it kill you.


TBoss

Thank you sir, I appreciate the response.  I certainly need to check things better no doubt but I got a quote from a builder near me for a stick built 35x52 metal building with a 8x15 porch.  Also included was windows, doors, metal roof and sides, vapor barrier and insulation (no labor cost for the insulation) but it was r19 for walls and r30 for attiic.  Total cost for delivery and labor was 22k.  Concrete was estimated to be 10k.  Total @ 32k.

I'm sure I am missing something but I thought the materials for a 20x40 or 24x36 would come in cheaper than 22k.  For the metal building shell, labor and materials was 22k.

I need to do more digging on this.
Thanks again for the reply.  I'll post more info as I find it.

TBoss

The quote was from here.  http://www.martinmetalllc.com/
And I still have the quote.  This building is nearly 50% bigger than the cabin I am looking at with labor included.
How is it that a 20x40 cabin shell can be so much more expensive?
It was 2x6 construction and I believe 10ft tall.

flyingvan

Not familiar with stick built metal buildings.  ???  The hangars here at work are all metal and are built for around $12 per square foot over existing asphalt.  You get a small door for you and a big door for your plane....If you had the metal shell for $22K, what else would have to be done to make it livable?
Find what you love and let it kill you.


UK4X4

Costs vary from area to area !

I'm 1ft above ground level and 48K down

26 x 36 crawl space monolythic foundation

A cheap property often has issues !

Stage 2 frame and dry in not inc roof coverings windows or insulation- is about the same again


So I'll be at about $53 / sq ft rough dried in - but using contracted labor

Add siding -windows doors and I'm up to $77/sqft complete dried in- using contractors

The interior I will be doing myself - electric plumbing insulation and all the rest

TBoss

I just meant metal roof and metal sides; like a Morton building.

Im sure you may be closer to price than me as Im new to all this.  I'll have to crunch some more numbers and get back.
I'll be posting some progress at some point.  Thanks again for your input.

tb

flyingvan

To put a more positive spin on this money issue, both my owner builder projects  went like this---Work overtime, save money, find land.  Buy land, deplete savings.  Save up more while hand moving dirt, doing driveway, drawing plans.   Get all approvals, buy materials.  Pace building with money in/money out, balance time with marriage, family, friends, fun.

Key for me to keep project fun---no deadlines and no debt.  Go slow.  My goal is when done, wanting to keep building---there WILL be a thrid owner/builder project for me
Find what you love and let it kill you.

TBoss

Thanks for the input UK4x4.
flyingvan, I agree.  Since we have the land my plan is to work the weekends/vacations with my step-dad to complete stages of the project.  I would like to save enough to get the house rough-in complete, however, that may be more than I have right now.

On a separate question, what are the thoughts on foundations?  Crawl space vs post/tier?  My cabin will set in a field without much wind block until I can grow a few trees.
Is a crawlspace with concrete or blocks stronger than the post-tier (either posts buried or sonotube type pier)?


MountainDon

Quote from: TBoss on September 19, 2012, 09:42:06 AM

Is a crawlspace with concrete or blocks stronger than the post-tier (either posts buried or sonotube type pier)?

Yes. Perimeter foundations have a larger footprint. Made from either concrete block or poured concrete, both on a poured concrete footing, a perimeter foundation is self bracing.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

Squirl

On the topic of the metal building, opinions vary.
The majority of the opinions on them that I have read were negative.  Moisture, condensation, noise, and draft issues.  I'm sure the sales people will tell you those are all not true and just give them money.  From the descriptions of others, in the end, they are out buildings like a barn, not something I've read a lot of people want to live in.

It also depends on what you call finished enough to live in.  Bathroom, kitchen, heat, flooring, electric, etc.  I would normally include that in an estimate for the house, and would have to be added to the 22k for the metal building.

MountainDon

Quotestick built 35x52 metal building
Is that framed and then sheathed with OSB and the metal over that, or just OSB fastened to the framing? 
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

TBoss

Squirl, actually those items would need to be added to 32k; dont forget the concrete slab (10k). ;-)  But I understand your point.
MountainDon, the 22k was framed, vapor barier, insulation, metal roof and metal sides.  I didnt see OSB sheathing in the quote.
here is what was included:

Here is a quote on a 30x52x8 post frame with a 15x8 porch, includes a 16x7 ins door on the end, trusses are 48'' oc on shop space, 24'' oc on living space that works real well for sheet rock, R 19 fiberglass ins. on all sidewalls, R30 Blow in ins. in ceiling, is figured in. windows in living space has screens, Single Bubble on complete roof is in on price, and that is a vapor barrier only, Divider wall is a 2x6 R19 ins. is figured in . Concrete is not in price, that price is around 10000.00. Installation on insulation is not figured in, Price does include all ins. stated above. All steel is 29 Gauge 40yr. warranty, this metal is wat we recommend, All sidewall ins. is R19, Price includes Labor Tax, Delivery. Except ins. installation. Includes Labor to install single bubble on roof.

Also included several doors and windows.

TBoss

I should add that when I spoke to the salesperson I was just trying to get a rough idea of what cost would be to build something this size.  I had no idea.
So this was a rough quote for a shell.

Thats the general price Im trying to find with a smaller cabin.  How much for a shell or how much to finish enough for it to be livable.  I dont know if there is an easy answer for this because everyone's cabin is going to be different and costs due to location will vary as well.


MountainDon

I was wondering about OSB wall sheathing because I was wanting to know how they made the building stiff enough to with stand high winds. Most metal paneling is not rated for structural use.  Ditto for metal used on a roof.  And 48" truss spacing seems ridiculous (over shop space or any space)

The quote regarding 24" OC studs and the suitability for drywall caught my attention as well. My experience has been that if the studs are 24" OC then 5/8" drywall should be used as 1/2" shows a waviness more often than not.

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

TBoss

So I went back and tried to figure as much as I could, a few things were guesses. TOTAL without labor was about 35,500.
This was completeing the entire cabin.  Actually, labor was included on electric, plumbing, roof, and sewer but again some of these were guesswork.
Im guessing if all this work was hired out I'd be looking at 25% of the total cost?  That would put me close to 60k.  Thoughts?

Thanks again everyone.

flyingvan

  Here's the link to the step by step for a poured perimeter foundation
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=11812.msg151774#msg151774

   Like people commented, do not take shortcuts.  Dig deep, don't skimp on reinforcement.  I used fabric because it formed to the massive boulders, and the lumber never touched concrete so I could re-use it.

   To answer you labor ratio question--- pull up this building estimate calculator (totally free) and enter your numbers.  Compare materials to labor costs.  I believe labor costs far outpace materials; the further from the city you are the more that's true.   

http://www.building-cost.net/CompMatrix.asp
Find what you love and let it kill you.

TBoss

Thanks again for everyone's input.  I have a few more questions:

1) if your floor is going to be T&G, what size OSB floor sheathing do you put down?  Then, what size T&G on the OSB?
2) same for walls; whats the standard OSB wall sheathing size for the exterior?  What are the thoughts on exterior siding for longevity?  Which one is best?
3) I read that to help prevent moisture from building up (exterior walls) you need a 3/8" gap between the siding and house wrap.  How does one achieve this?
(taken from here:  We know from experience that 3/8 of an inch is a pretty safe dimension4 with stucco, manufactured stone veneers, wood claddings or other claddings like fiber-cement that lie flat against the housewrap and OSB)  http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-038-mind-the-gap-eh