Author Topic: 16x28 East of Dallas  (Read 14126 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mad-Dax

  • Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 23
16x28 East of Dallas
« on: April 27, 2012, 08:21:59 AM »
Finally got around to put up some pics...I have only worked on this place on limited Sundays for the last two years.  My big obstacles are getting water, electricity 250' from the road, and a septic system.  It has been a slow go.  We have almost 3 acres.  I didn't tie it down to the ground or do things right but just let me know what I can improve upon.








































Offline Mad-Dax

  • Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2012, 08:39:58 AM »
I have a nice haze and moisture in one of the reclaimed sliding glass door fixed frame window (I built) on the corner. :(   You can see the two larger windows I am talking about.  Can I drill some holes somewhere at the top of the glass to let it out?  I thought I sealed them good but I guess not enough or even know where it is getting in.

I am also trying to find out where to get a 20' utility pole to install the meter box on and weather head stuff etc.  The other issue is the co-op will run the power to my cabin approximately 250' but they said they will cut a 30' wide path from the road up to the cabin.  I really don't want a 30' wide path because it will take away all the privacy along the fence/property line and a straight shot view to the cabin from the road.  I have a nice winding driveway already that blocks the view.  I can however have them put a pole on my property by the road and then go underground or go to another pole (my 20' minimum pole) 100' away for the meter to go on then go underground the rest of the way.  I am guessing it is expensive to buy the cable to run underground  on my own vs. having them come in and bring it to me on their poles.  They told me even if I cut a path for them (narrower) to string up poles will not matter because they still want the 30'.  I know some of you guys have put underground cable can you give me some ball park costs for your electric projects?

Offline rdzone

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 309
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2012, 08:52:02 AM »
Looks like a nice place so far. I don't want to be critical, but I do have a several questions. What did you use for footings?  Did you pour any pads? Your structure is pretty big not to have gravel or concrete pads to distibute the weight.  Did you leave the concrete block the way it is shown in the pictures?  If you did you should have turned your block so the webs faced up and down, they are not as strong when placed on their sides as in your pictures.

Like I said I don't mean to be critical, but I don't want you to have problems down the road.
Chuck

Offline MountainDon

  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,883
  • Jemez Mountains, NM; that's pronounced HEY-mess
    • My 15.75 x 30 Jemez Cabin
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2012, 09:24:46 AM »
If you don't want a 30 foot clear cut swath through the trees put the line underground. Period. Trees and power lines make for a poor mix. Thirty feet may not even guarantee that some tree will not fall across the lines, unless the trees are all less than 15 feet tall. Falling trees are not only an inconvenience and an expense they cause fires. The biggest forest fire in recorded NM history was last year; caused by a tree falling on a power line.

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

Offline MountainDon

  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,883
  • Jemez Mountains, NM; that's pronounced HEY-mess
    • My 15.75 x 30 Jemez Cabin
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2012, 09:46:30 AM »
...just let me know what I can improve upon.


This is going to sound harsh, but it's too late.  :(

I could be wrong, and if I am wrong I apologize, but here is what I see in the pictures provided. The structure has three 2xsomething resting on concrete blocks laid on their side. Some other 2xsomethings (we'll call them rim joists) are nailed to the ends of those 2x's to form a double box. Floor joists are then hung somehow between those rim joists to frame out the floor.  That means the entire weight of the structure is being held up by the nails that secure the 'rim joists" to those three joists with the blocks under them.   

Is that more or less how that foundation/floor is put together or have I missed something? 

 :( :(                          [frus]
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 10:23:18 AM by MountainDon »
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

Offline markert2523

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2012, 10:35:02 AM »
Just curious, but what happened to the clerestory windows along the top in front? 

Offline rdzone

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 309
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2012, 10:35:59 AM »
MountianDon,

I think you missed the 3 beams he has running opposite of the floor joists.  See his 3rd and 5th picture.
Chuck

Offline MountainDon

  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,883
  • Jemez Mountains, NM; that's pronounced HEY-mess
    • My 15.75 x 30 Jemez Cabin
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2012, 10:57:02 AM »
MountianDon,

I think you missed the 3 beams he has running opposite of the floor joists.  See his 3rd and 5th picture.

Okay, yes I did miss those. I apologize for that.
Better, but still on sideways blocks.
Beams appear small; over spanned.
And as was stated nothing holding it down other than itself. I hear it gets windy around Dallas. At least they keep closing the airport from time to time because of extreme weather.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

Offline rdzone

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 309
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2012, 10:58:44 AM »
I agree. 
Chuck

Offline glenn kangiser

  • The Troglodyte
  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,926
  • Central California Sierras- Home of Yosemite NP
    • Underground Cabin
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2012, 01:43:55 PM »
The good thing is that the trees can slow the wind at ground level.

Being low on the blocks makes less of a problem with hinging from wind pushing but I agree - the foundation looks to be on the short side.  No twister resistance if necessary.

With it being loose on the foundation, jacking and leveling in the future can be possible but being so close to the ground I think there may be hard ditch digging involved.  More supports even similar to the ones that are there between spans could help lower point loads on each of the other footings.  Mobile home anchors could be used for tie downs or footings could be poured with a concrete pump.  All harder after the fact though.  Just ideas. 

Depending on the ground may not prove to be a big problem.  You can rent a trencher and do your own underground in a lot of cases.  Be sure to check specs.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

Offline glenn kangiser

  • The Troglodyte
  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,926
  • Central California Sierras- Home of Yosemite NP
    • Underground Cabin
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2012, 01:49:12 PM »
Also drainage is important at this stage.  Make sure water and roof runoff go away from the house... not under it.  With the heavy loading on the pier blocks they are sure to sink if the ground gets wet.  At least 1/4 inch per foot for at least 5 feet and ditch around runoff areas if needed too.

Looking at the pix again I see the roof slopes toward the back and the ground slopes toward the front.  All runoff from the hill slope and the roof will go under the house at this point.  I would gutter the back of the roof and get the water away with a downspout and lead away pipe,  then regrade or ditch the back along with the 2% away from the back of the house to keep water out from under it.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

Offline glenn kangiser

  • The Troglodyte
  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,926
  • Central California Sierras- Home of Yosemite NP
    • Underground Cabin
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2012, 01:56:14 PM »
If everything is still level at this point, blocks could be added on PT foundation  boards then one on top of the block and shingle wedges driven in on appropriate spacers to make it tight.  Similar to a mobile home foundation.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

Offline Don_P

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,558
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2012, 04:21:11 PM »
A helper nearly lost his hand when a block in that orientation crushed under load.

Offline Redoverfarm

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,789
  • Applachian Mtns, West Virginia
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2012, 06:08:10 PM »
I have seen scaffolding three high collaspe sitting on the web of a block turned sideways. Luckly no one was hurt.  But they are not designed to have strength laying on their side.  Even with scaffolding I always place a wooden block on top of the block to distribute the load over the complete surface rather than pinpointing to a specific area.  Same could be said for foundations and beams.

Offline BADB0Y

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 48
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2012, 07:06:09 PM »
I'm guessing the coop in question is TVEC? I too am east of Dallas. They aren't really helpful. One the bright side, a few hours with a walk behind trencher isnt too bad. Have them set the pole and run underground. Thats the norm here in the lake area anyway.
Please excuse my typos, I post from my cell phone 90% of the time!

Offline Mad-Dax

  • Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2012, 08:05:58 PM »
No I know what you guys are saying...no offense taken here.  I didn't know about putting the blocks sideways or think about the roof run off.  That will be guttered and routed to rain storage containers.  Well this was just supposed to be a quick "storage shed"...then it turned to "I guess we should live in here while we build the real house"  It is still level after almost two years sitting on the blocks...I can add support pretty easy I think.  The floor is on 2x6..those 3 long length doubles are 2x6s spanning the 28ft.

So I should make some footers.  Under each existing block? Can I use a 16x16x3 cement pad and turn the block on its web?  or do I need to somehow pour concrete in the centers between the existing ones.  I can get some 20 ton jacks.

ok...going underground with electric i guess will be a pretty penny to go with 200 amp@ 250 ft.  I am guessing the size cable I need is over $6 a foot and I need need 3 cables..$4500 sounds about right just for the 3 wires?  I know they don't sell that big a wire at Lowes..I guess an electric supply?  I bet I wouldn't even be able to lift that much copper.

Offline Rob_O

  • Rural Technician
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 315
  • Fisherville, KY
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2012, 09:18:54 AM »
ok...going underground with electric i guess will be a pretty penny to go with 200 amp@ 250 ft.  I am guessing the size cable I need is over $6 a foot and I need need 3 cables..$4500 sounds about right just for the 3 wires?  I know they don't sell that big a wire at Lowes..I guess an electric supply?  I bet I wouldn't even be able to lift that much copper.

You will need 2 runs of 4/0 feeder. You can buy that at Lowes

This would do it

http://www.amazon.com/Southwire-Company-55418406-Mobile-Aluminum/dp/B000BPCVF6
"Hey Y'all, watch this..."

Offline MountainDon

  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,883
  • Jemez Mountains, NM; that's pronounced HEY-mess
    • My 15.75 x 30 Jemez Cabin
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2012, 10:32:29 AM »
You might be surprised at the price you might get at Lowe's too. That's where I got my 700 feet of wire that I used for our cabin.

Note it doesn't have to be copper for that, Al is fine and cheaper.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

Offline Mad-Dax

  • Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2012, 07:12:43 PM »
Oh wow that is alot better...now I do want 220v service..still two feeds?  I need to find a 20ft. pole now so they can set the meter on.  They told me I needed to have that pole ready and in the ground so that they can come and hook up to it before they come out. 

Offline Rob_O

  • Rural Technician
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 315
  • Fisherville, KY
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2012, 07:58:46 PM »
Oh wow that is alot better...now I do want 220v service..still two feeds?

The cable I linked has 2 hots and a neutral - 220V service. At your distance from the transformer, you will need 2 runs of that cable in parallel for a 200A service
"Hey Y'all, watch this..."

Offline Mad-Dax

  • Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2013, 01:50:16 PM »
I finally got all this service entrance taken care of.  I have a question about how the grounds are supposed to be. 
I have this panel with neutral and ground together and then ground goes to a rod in the ground. 


The 3 big wires leave out the bottom and go 150Ft. to the house to this panel.  Do I just get another ground rod and hook it up the same way here or is the ground separate somehow.  I want to also send out 100 amps service from here to the shed.  Does that also get a separate grounding rod?


As you can see there is no ground bus in this panel in the house.

Offline bayview

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 882
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2013, 03:17:40 AM »
The sub-panel to your shed will need 4 wires to the box with a separate grounding bar.

A link that may help . . .

http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/elect/panel/sub_panel/01/new.htm
    . . . said the focus was safety, not filling town coffers with permit money . . .

Offline Mad-Dax

  • Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2013, 01:37:39 PM »
I can kinda understand but I have 3 panels total and the ground at the moment is only at the pole...like this drawing..I am not sure if the house needs to have a ground rod too.  Then from the house to the shed with two hots a neutral and a grnd no bonding screw?  Can someone add to my drawing perhaps to show me..I mean if you have time.


Offline MountainDon

  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,883
  • Jemez Mountains, NM; that's pronounced HEY-mess
    • My 15.75 x 30 Jemez Cabin
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2013, 02:36:01 PM »
I am not an electrician; let's state that up front.

My understanding is that current code states you must have 4 wires (220-240 vac) from the meter pole panel to the house panel and also 4 wires from the house to the shed panel. And only one ground rod at the pole. I believe the reason for only one ground rod, and none at the house or shed panels, is that is the grounding potential is different at the rods that can cause currents to flow through or between the grounds. There could be two ground rods at the pole (some jurisdictions have that rule; at least 6 feet apart with both rods being 8 feet minimum buried length) to ensure grounding but they must have the ground wire from the panel connected to one rod and then continue unbroken to the second rod. Two rods is the only way to use a meter to test if the ohms reading is low enough to indicate proper grounding.

And yes, the ground buss and the neutral buss at the house and shed panels should be separated, not connected to each other. Only the one bond at the main pole as illustrated.



Now then, if the pole and house panels are old work, done at a time when 3 wires were code, I believe there is a point when expansion of the system will require the entire system needs to be upgraded to present code.  ??? 


As I stated, this is my understanding, not a guarantee... 
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 03:54:03 PM by MountainDon »
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

Offline Mad-Dax

  • Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: 16x28 East of Dallas
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2013, 09:55:21 AM »
Sigh....long   SIGH!!!!  I already buried the freaking 150ft long 2ft deep ditch....with only 3 wires!!!!  Guy from the electric company never told me never told me..to get 4 wires....and they sold me the 4-4-2 URD.  Maybe there is a way to fix it.

 

Templates: 5: index (default), Ads (default), Portal (default), Display (default), GenericControls (default).
Sub templates: 12: init, html_above, adsheaders_above, body_above, adsindex_above, portal_above, main, portal_below, adsindex_below, body_below, adsheaders_below, html_below.
Language files: 3: SPortal.english (default), index+Modifications.english (default), Ads.english (default).
Style sheets: 1: portal (default).
Files included: 38 - 1132KB. (show)
Cache hits: 13: 0.00155s for 40,824 bytes (show)
Queries used: 29.

[Show Queries]