Mouse calibre revolvers -- Anyone carry one of these

[Windpower]

review here:

http://www.gunblast.com/Paco_BlackWidow.htm

[peternap]

Nope...sorry. The smallest caliber I carry is a 44 Magnum.

[Windpower]

44 Mag 

my super Redhawk doesn't fit in my pocket -- even without the scope

[rick91351]

44 Mag 

my super Redhawk doesn't fit in my pocket -- even without the scope

Then sir you need a bigger pocket!   

[Squirl]

No.  I was looking at one.  Some people highly recommend them.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/concealed_pistols.htm

They satisfy the first rule of gun fighting (bring a gun).
I wasn't overly impressed with the stopping power.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/concealed_gun_chart.htm

I was looking at the Kahr PM9. It was shorter, about the same width, and had more powerful round.  It does weigh 5 ounces more. 

It is also a lot smaller than a glock or 1911.

What made you settle on the black widow?

[Windpower]

I haven't decided yet but it seemed a practical light weight pocket gun for carrying around the farm to dispatch unwelcome snakes with (22 mag shot ) and or other uninvited critters

it is very light and would not wear holes in my pockets as fast as the S Redhawk or the 1911 (Good idea about bigger pockets though 

Wisconsin finally passed Concealed Carry.....

ETA

My wife's nephew stopped by with his Ruger SP101 in 357 - not impressed although I didn't shoot it the grips seemed really small for such a light weight (25 oz) 357

[MountainDon]

I have no handgun smaller than 45LC. I have been eyeballing a KelTec P3AT, 380 auto pistol, for Karen, as she doesn't like the 45. It's a single stack 6 + 1, 11 ounces loaded. Fits small hands very nicely.

[peternap]

I honestly don't like small caliber guns. Small guns have their place and I do have a Derringer in 44mag and one in 45LC/410 but I prefer full size revolvers and once in a while, my 1911.

I have two light weight guns for General walking around (Burb Guns). A Taurus model 444 Titanium


and a S&W Model 325 in 45 ACP



I wouldn't trade the S&W for anything.

The Rugers are for hunting and the S&W 629 is my normal farm gun.
I have a couple 22 caliber handguns somewhere including a NA Mini derringer...they don't see much use.

[Windpower]

That Kel Tec looks interesting -- it really is light weight

My BIL asked if I wanted to shoot his wife's Berretta sub compact 380 (I am sure he thought he would get a good laugh out of his "city slicker" BIL failure to hit anything

I set 5 targets swinging at about 15 yards after missing with the first

How did you do that ? he said -- I haven't hit anything with it yet

I said 'it shoots a little high"

Small autos are a challenge for me because I have fairly large hands and old eyes

I agree the bigger hand guns are the weapon of choice -- but I think I would get tired of getting on and off the tractor with 45 on my side getting banged around

I was looking into the WI permit process -- fairly straight forward --- $50 and proof you have had a gun safety course (a WI hunter safety course will do)

(The above assumes you don't have any bad convictions on your record (and you are a US citizen  --I like that part)

[Squirl]

My interest is piqued with the kel tech too.

PA is an open carry state, but most police and people don't know that. In the eastern part it is common for people to call the police if they see you open carry, and the police will arrest you and take the gun.  They release you after 24 hours without charge and keep the gun.  It is usually cheaper and less aggravating to buy a new one.

Concealed carry is just less harassment by law enforcement.

I have had neighbors even complain around my place in central NY.  They rather it be out of site, out of mind.


Windpower, if you found those other guns to be to small, how does the black widow feel?

[peternap]

My interest is piqued with the kel tech too.

PA is an open carry state, but most police and people don't know that. In the eastern part it is common for people to call the police if they see you open carry, and the police will arrest you and take the gun.  They release you after 24 hours without charge and keep the gun.  It is usually cheaper and less aggravating to buy a new one.

 

The last person I recall that happening to here, got a 10,000.00 settlement from the city before he even filed the suit ;Dt.

[Carla_M]

I have to agree with peternap that bigger bullets make for better defense. But, you saw the "but" coming?  But, the shooter must be able to readily and consistently fire the thing and hit what they wanted to hit. I have a few handguns, and only handguns. I have a 1911 made by Remington I received from a family member. It was made in 1944 and appears to be like new. I fired it one time, a box of shells, and then found out it was sort of valuable, so I've never shot it again. It stays locked away. It is some gun! My hand hurt for a while.

Later I had a chance to do more shooting with a more recent production 45. I found I had trouble being consistent. However I did also find I was much much better using a 9MM. So now I own a Browning Hi-Power. I'm pretty good with it. It's funto shoot.

I also have one of those Kel-Tec P3AT's that were mentioned. It is so cool, it can be carried just about anywhere except maybe swimming.     Easily slips into a pocket; a girl can always find a place for one of those. It does have some shortcomings though. It's too small for some hands. The trigger pull is good, but only after a return trip to Kel-tec for some massaging.  I can make deadly sized patterns with all 6 rounds at anything up to 10-12 feet. Out past that it's still not bad to about 20 feet. Past that, not so good. But for it's intended use, close up personal defense, it is very nice. You need to practice with it to get the feel and be able to hit things well. But it isn't the most fun gun to shoot, too light weight = more recoil than you might expect from a 380. But it can always be with you with great ease, so it has a place.

For the record I also have a 9MM  G26  (very nice)and a S&W Bodyguard38 (excellent). The B38 is a wonderful small gun too. A revolver, hammerless and lightweight polymer framed. Shoots 38 +P too. About a pound loaded. And it has a built in laser sight. Not as small and slim as the P3AT.  For pure fun I have a Buck Marl 22LR with a trail lite barrel. (excellent + for fun).  That's some of what I have.

Windpower, you can get shot loads for the 38 S&W Bodyguard. Can't for the 380 as far as I know. And the laser is nice.

[Carla_M]

The last person I recall that happening to here, got a 10,000.00 settlement from the city before he even filed the suit ;Dt.

I'm sure you could readily find a lawyer to help with that; for a cut of course, but it would be so fun to watch it play out. The cops always use the "ignorance of the law, is no excuse" thing when "we" make some dumb mistake. Would be nice to turn the tables.

[Carla_M]

I should add that the S&W B38 looks like a plastic water pistol. The standard sights are yuck, but better with high contrast paint. And it too has plenty of recoil, with +P even more. Nothing is perfect.

The P3AT or the G26 could be my favorite choices for CCW. Depends what I'm wearing. 

[Squirl]

No, I watch the dockets around here pretty close. Most people have been losing the cases.  You have to convince a majority of people beyond a preponderance of the evidence that you should be able to openly carry around a gun in public without a permit.  As I said, the majority of the people in the eastern half of PA don't know it is the law and/or don't agree with that.  So you have to convince those same people that the police, who already get the benefit of the doubt, did something wrong.  The police are aware of this and so they are no longer afraid of lawsuits.  The gun shop owner I talked to last night even agreed.  He has a conceal permit and he won't open carry in public and most of his customers are cops.

I went last night looking for another good used double barrel, and I looked at the P3AT while I was there.  I could solidly get my index and middle finger around it and just touching my ring finger.  It felt good.  Carla, I think your testimony is a good endorsement.  You own many others, but you feel comfortable carrying the P3AT anywhere. 

I think a .380 would be the smallest caliber I would be comfortable with against a 2 legged creature.  I don't discount smaller caliber as lethal.  The .22 lr is the most common caliber among street punks.  If I am in a shoot out, I want to have the higher power round, especially if I have less shots.

Sorry to have started the thread drift.  If I were looking for a pocket pistol for majority four legged and no legged varmints, I would probably want .22lr but with a larger/better grip.  From what I was reading the black widow is a similar dimension to the others discussed, I can't imagine it has a great grip. 

[Woodsrule]

My Beretta .25 is an excellent concealed carry weapon; I have a rear pocket holster that only shows a wallet imprint and the wallet holster is easily accessed. I hear the comments about large bore weapons, but you can't beat a .25 against a knife wielding assailant. If you are looking for a good elevator gun then this one is for you.

[Windpower]

"Windpower, if you found those other guns to be to small, how does the black widow feel?"


I haven't reall 'tried one on' just pictures and reviews

It seems they have a unique fold out hand grip option too

I like the safe design of the hammer between cahe cartridges so no empty chamber (One reviewer said he thought he could take a hammer to it without risk of it firing)

There may be a bit of an advantage on the sight radius with the widow

I guess there is no substitution for trying one out -- sounds like  a trip to the gun store

[OlJarhead]

I heartily discourage any Non-shooter from carrying a semi-auto pistol.  ALWAYS.  OK, when I was a Marksmanship Instructor in the Marine Corps and later the Army I didn't have a choice, but since leaving the service I've always done this.

For one, they usually don't shoot enough to understand it, know how to really use it and are most likely to let it stay loaded too long and therefore, when needed, it will jam.  Without rotating magazines and without constant training users of semi-auto pistols are more likely to have a failure when in a 'fight or flight' situation then users of revolvers.

I ALWAYS recommend revolvers.

Why?  They darn near NEVER fail.  That's why.
They are easy to load.  That's why.
They are small and concealable.
They can be very powerful in a small package.

My wife, who carries and loves a S&W 686 with 4" barrel, and I bought a new Rossi .357 magnum snubby for our second oldest daughter as a carry/personal defense gun at Christmas.  Packs a punch the 380 and 9mm simply cannot match and can shoot .38spc all day long for training reasons.  She loves it.

I've seen WAY too many women fail to handle the wrist whipping action of a slide operated auto loader and then watched those exact same women plug holes in paper all day long with an equally 'powerful' (I use that word lightly for anything under 40 caliber except the .357) handguns.

I've also seen to many inexperienced shooters get confused when they are faced with a stove piped round and literally stare at it for a minute not sure of what to do...I've never seen that with a revolver

By the way, an inexperienced shooter is someone who's not been trained (and not just bubba's back yard training either), isn't military (and in the shooting arms side) or police (actually I've known a fair amount of police who ARE inexperienced shooters by the way -- just go to Canada) and who hasn't shot more then 3000+ rounds through their weapon of choice -- in my book anyway.  Consider this:  the individual who's put 3000+ rounds through their weapon of choice has had to tear it down repeatedly, clean it, re-assemble it, knows it's characteristics and has likely experienced everything it can toss at them.  They are not experts necessarily but they have experience with their firearm...anyone else is, well, simply inexperienced.

To clarify for the offended:  I'm not saying that I'm inexperienced, or you are, if we go out and buy a new pistol that we obviously haven't shot yet, I'm saying that your friend, girlfriend, wife, husband whatever, who hasn't shot more then 1000 rounds in the last ten years, hasn't shot their own pistol more then a handful of times and isn't specifically trained in the use of firearms IS inexperienced.

Lastly, once trained on a good revolver most of those women can then switch to an auto with no real issue.  I think this is because they tighten up the wrist and get familiar with shooting to a point that they can then make the switch easily.

Any, FWIW that's my 2c

[Windpower]

I'd say I pretty much agree with OJH

But I would say more important than the actual number of rounds shot is staying current.

As a pilot, I am not considered current if I haven't completed 3 take off and landings in 90 days (and the reality is that is no where near enough to stay current. )

Shooting a pistol shares a lot of the same 'muscle memory" as many other complicated tasks. I have flown with pilots that had over 10,000 hours but even they admit that if they aren't current then they are pretty bad pilots.

If you have to think about how to fly and airplane (or shoot a firearm) even for a split second, you could easily get  into dangerous territory
 

[OlJarhead]

Windpower I was searching for a way to describe what I meant but you've added a dimension I hadn't considered and makes an excellent point.

Someone who's put 3000 rounds through their firearm 10 years ago isn't current but will remember what to do if something goes wrong (or most likely will)...just not split second fast.

Someone who's never put that many rounds through but shoots 30 rounds a month may not know what to do.

Someone who's put 5000 rounds (yes I added a few but I think it's important to emphasize that a LOT of rounds must go down range before you really are proficient with the use of a semi-auto pistol IMHO) down range AND who shoots regularly (maybe not every month but at least more then a few times a year) will most likely be both proficient and confident in the use of said firearm.

Bottom line?  Doesn't take near that to manage a revolver.

Sure the pistol might not jam and might well shoot and fire as prescribed but 'might' isn't good enough.  WILL is what I want my wife and daughters to have and I've yet to see a well maintained revolver (that hasn't had 10k rounds stuffed through it) fail.

[peternap]

I shoot 3 to 500 rounds a week, a third of which are through a semi and am not comfortable with a 1911 (The only Semi I carry).

I learned on revolvers and am most comfortable with them.

I agree with Old Jarhead 100%

[Windpower]

Another factor is I think how well the gun fits your hand -- for want of a better way to describe it 

It seems I read somewhere that there was a way to tell if you had a 'revolver' hand or an 'auto' hand --something like holding your hand straight out and which way your hand 'natuaraly curved' was a tell tale -- it was quite a while ago and I don't remember the details

I have a Berretta 9 mm -- there is nothing wrong with this gun as it has a very good reputation
but I simply don't shoot it well -- maybe it is the 'fat' grip -- I really don't know

I shoot the 1911 very much better even with the added recoil

The other auto that fits well is the Ruger 22 -- it is very accurate in my hand out to 75 yards (back when I was shooting regularly -- at my previous house I simply walked into the back yard to practise)

The only revolver I currently own is the S Redhawk and with the scope it is amazing out to about a 100 yards

[Carla_M]

I learned most of what I know from dating an ex-army firearms instructor; tactical weapons or something like that. Sorry but I get lost with all the acronyms.  He was very good and a stickler. He had me field strip and reassemble after every magazine for a long time just so I would learn exactly how to do it without thinking.

My best girl friend and I belong to an area gun club and shoot twice a month for two to three hours. I'm comfortable with any of the arms I own.

[NM_Shooter]

I use two different pistols for CCW, which a friend of mine says is bad practice.  I believe him but am too bullheaded to choose.  I either carry a S&W642 or an XD45. 

The 642 is excellent as a pocket gun for my jacket.  It is hammerless, so no need to clear the pocket to use.  Wheel guns are best for reliability.  If it goes click, squeeze again.  I shoot that XD45 pretty well though, and I like the 45acp round.  I should pick one or the other.  My choice is 642 for CQB, and XD for anything else. 

I did find a flaw in my XD45 the other day... I was out cycling though some clearing / reloading exercises at the range on a very, very cold day.  Turns out that the mag release on the XD gets sticky in the cold.  It would not lock in a magazine when I inserted a fresh one and felt gummy.  That is now fixed.

I suggest that anyone who carries an auto toss that thing in the freezer overnight and make sure that the slide operates normally and the magazine lock and any safety works correctly.  For competition, the saying is that a "wet gun does not alibi".  However, a wet gun is not a good option for an extreme weather carry piece.

[OlJarhead]

Interesting NM...my Kimber fires them hot, cold and wet (that sounds bad) 

The advantage of carrying it to the cabin every time in all seasons is that you get to know it well   Specially since I went twice a month for over 2 years!  Never had it not do what it was supposed to do.