Author Topic: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK  (Read 482503 times)

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Offline Don_P

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #650 on: June 19, 2012, 03:39:14 AM »
The plumb and level cuts on the rafter tail are determined by the subfascia size. The bottom of the sub is flush with the bottom level cut, the top outside corner of the sub planes in with the tops of the rafters. The sub is not seen in the finished product. The soffit attaches over it, the nailers, and the wall ledger. The fascia covers the sub, the soffit edge and has a pleasing reveal hanging down as a drip edge. It usually hangs below the soffit 1/2-3/4" and is normally 3/4" material, although 2x looks nice as well, usually cedar.

The width is whatever you want or need within reason. 2' horizontal is common and about the limit for typical construction. I've often gone down to 1' for economy and have done many in between. You've already set a precedent on the rake soffits. Remember we still don't understand your porch tie in.

Soffit vent is usually a 2" wide strip running along the underside of the soffit between 2 soffit boards.

On single story homes with a steep pitch you need to watch the overhangs for getting into the doors and windows. On this build that is not a concern. If you plan carefully you can use overhangs to admit or reject sunlight. I played with ours and the orientation. The shortest day of the year with low sun angles the sun crosses the floor at noon. Tomorrow at noon the sun will just touch the edge of the floor.

Offline ajbremer

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #651 on: June 19, 2012, 07:12:25 AM »
Tuesday Morning - June 19th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Once again I thank you all for information that helps me.

Today and the next few days I'll be concentrating on putting in my blocking between rafters (2x6's).

I think I'll stick with the outline that I have for making my plumb and level cuts on my rafter ends if y'all think it'll be ok.

The way I did it was, I took a small piece of 2x4 (which is what I'll be using for my subfascia, I figured - why not?) and I held it outward with the 3-1/2" side vertical (plumb) at the end of my rafters. Then I slowly moved it inward until it was to the point of being flush with the plane of the top of the rafter and then I made a pencil mark at the inner edge. Then I took a level and put it up against the pencil mark, plumb, and then drew a vertical line. Then I drew the horizontal level cut line where the bottom of the 2x4 was. Please let me know if I'm on the right track and if this will be ok.

Here's the pictures that show it:







« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 12:13:17 PM by ajbremer »
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Offline Redoverfarm

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #652 on: June 19, 2012, 08:55:47 AM »
Either will work AL. I was trying to get you out of making awkward cuts off the ground.  If you decided to do it your way it's your house so be it.  Just make sure that the horizontal cut on the tail is at the bottom of where your ledger board will be positioned.   I would mark both end of the house at the point where the top of the plumb cut will be.  Then using a chaulk box snap that line.  That will give you a mark where the top of the plumb cut will be.  Then using a sliding bevel square set to the position that will be plumb toward the bottom.  Then go through and you will just have to mark each rafter with the bevel square.  No trying to hold the level plumb and occassionally being off a little.  After you have cut the plumb cuts you can use the bevel for the other as well if you choose by resetting to the different angle.

Offline Don_P

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #653 on: June 19, 2012, 12:47:29 PM »
John, I'm not following your method from the bottom of pg 26... a sketch or try again?
Al what you have is how I do it. I do make the sub out of the same size material as the fly... they are both subfascias and I like to try to keep the fascias pretty uniform.

Offline Redoverfarm

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #654 on: June 19, 2012, 01:55:34 PM »
John, I'm not following your method from the bottom of pg 26... a sketch or try again?
Al what you have is how I do it. I do make the sub out of the same size material as the fly... they are both subfascias and I like to try to keep the fascias pretty uniform.

Apparently you have the pages reversed than I do.  Most recent for me is Page 1.  Anyway what post # are you referring to?  Sorry about the confusion. Discription is the best I can do and sometimes by the time it gets from my mind to the keyboard something may be lost in the translation.  The only one at the bottom of a page is #631.  Is that the one?

Offline ajbremer

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #655 on: June 19, 2012, 02:13:24 PM »
Regarding the fly width being the same as the subfascia width, my fly is a 2x8 rafter - I was thinking about making my subfacia a 2x4? If I used a 2x8 for the eave subfascia, wouldn't that be pretty wide for that?

Anyway, today I finished on long sides worth of blocking between the rafters, here's pics:



« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 12:14:16 PM by ajbremer »
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Offline Don_P

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #656 on: June 19, 2012, 02:55:16 PM »
There ya go, we're always tripping over one another for the opportunity to do more blocking  :).
Your gable end, rake fascias will be 1x or 2x10's. I like the look, well, I like multi layered foot deep overhangs. Do run some 2x8 blocking nailed to the lookouts and spanning from wall nailer to fly to hold that deep thing square. You can do that when you do soffit and fascia later unless things start curling. If it were mine, and I've been told all my taste is in my mouth, I would use a 2x8 subfascia and a 1x10 fascia. For paint grade work I like Miratek 5/4 trim. A wider fascia allows the gutter to pitch more.

Redover, sorry I was being lazy in the post pane, post #647. I'm understanding how you're finding and marking the plumb cut but at a 45 the cut is going to be about 10-1/4" tall. The subfascia needs to plane in with the roof ply up top and the soffit on its' bottom edge. How are you avoiding a level cut on the rafter tail? I'm thinking even with a 2x8 subfascia the level cut will be about 8-3/4" down the face of the plumb cut (7-1/4+1-1/2 drop to plane it in up top)

Offline Redoverfarm

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #657 on: June 19, 2012, 04:25:23 PM »
There ya go, we're always tripping over one another for the opportunity to do more blocking  :).
Your gable end, rake fascias will be 1x or 2x10's. I like the look, well, I like multi layered foot deep overhangs. Do run some 2x8 blocking nailed to the lookouts and spanning from wall nailer to fly to hold that deep thing square. You can do that when you do soffit and fascia later unless things start curling. If it were mine, and I've been told all my taste is in my mouth, I would use a 2x8 subfascia and a 1x10 fascia. For paint grade work I like Miratek 5/4 trim. A wider fascia allows the gutter to pitch more.

Redover, sorry I was being lazy in the post pane, post #647. I'm understanding how you're finding and marking the plumb cut but at a 45 the cut is going to be about 10-1/4" tall. The subfascia needs to plane in with the roof ply up top and the soffit on its' bottom edge. How are you avoiding a level cut on the rafter tail? I'm thinking even with a 2x8 subfascia the level cut will be about 8-3/4" down the face of the plumb cut (7-1/4+1-1/2 drop to plane it in up top)

Don_P you are using the nailer level off the bottom of the plumb cut to the ledger on the wall which is just eliminating that extra cut.  Nail the nailer to the rafter and toenail to the ledger. The front edge of that nailer will be flush with the front edge of that plumb cut.  Yes it will create a little wider fascia. 

Offline ajbremer

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #658 on: June 19, 2012, 04:34:17 PM »
Ok, I'm pretty sure I understand what you guys are saying - I think I'm finally learning something  [cool]

Tomorrow I'll lay out some lines on the rafter tails that will be for a 2x8 subfascia just to see how that'll look but my main task will be blocking in between the rafters on the other side.

Do you suggest that I nail my subfascia on before I actually start to lay my roof sheets on? Also, if that be the case, should I put my first row of sheet edge 1" beyond the subfascia seeing that I'll be using the 1x10 fascia. In other words, the lowest edge of roof sheeting will be plumb-flush with the outside edge of the fascia? If y'alls patience is hanging on I'll take this one step further and ask: should I just go ahead and also install the fascia before I ever lay down a roof sheet?

About the gable end/rake soffit area: where should the sheets edge line up there, flush with the fascias outside edge?

To me, this roof stuff is the most difficult to understand BUT, reading all of y'alls helpful answers and getting all of this information is finally making things click (a little bit). Thank you all for your patience with me.
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Offline Don_P

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #659 on: June 19, 2012, 05:48:52 PM »
When you're laying it out tomorrow remember you can cheat out a bit if you need, the nailers need to grab the rafter but they can support the subfascia, you can run off the corner of the rafter a bit if you need to. That'll make sense when you're up there if it doesn't now.

Yes, do install the subfascia, 3 nails from the sheet into it in each bay as you nail the ply off to the rafters. Hold the roof sheathing flush or just a bit under at the gable ends, you want no overhanging ply along the rakes. You'll set the top of the rake fascia flush with the top of the roof ply.

No don't install fascia, let's get a lid on it... well ok, that's what I always say.

 I usually hook on the subfascia and pull 47-1/2" up the fly at each end and pop a line across the roof. If you did everything right, the chalkline will be right down the center of the lookouts. This is the top edge of the first row. (not the bottom corner of the sheet plumb with the outside face of the fascia, but the top outermost corner. You don't want to push the drip edge out where it can't lay on the fascia. If you missed your lookouts see if you can correct that by ripping the first row. Otherwise just use plywood clips in every bay.

Offline ajbremer

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #660 on: June 19, 2012, 06:32:17 PM »
Sir, your covering all the baces, this is great! ;D

I should put all of this information in catagories and/or topics within some kind of a pdf file or a database so that when I get to a point where I know something has been said about the subject, I'll know where to go. What a gold mine this place is! (countryplans)

One thing I haven't mentioned. I WILL be creating some sort of elaborate scafolding and bracing so that I will in no way fall when I'm up there on the roof. I know those 5/8 roof sheets must be heavy and I will most likely be doing it by myself so I will be creative, you guys'll see.
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Offline ajbremer

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #661 on: June 20, 2012, 05:30:37 AM »
This was mentioned, "I prefer to put the return at the wall line..." within this message:
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=10641.msg158661#msg158661.
What is a return?

I spent some time this morning drawing up this diagram showing how I perceive my fascia and soffit configuration to be. Keep in mind that the diagram is not proportionally correct. The dimensions and wood used are for my configuration. Some notes:

I notice that the main 2x8 nailer between the subfascia and the ledger does not have a large amount of surface area to nail to the rafter BUT there should be enough. Since this drawing is out of proportion I will be able to see reality when I get out there and lay this stuff out.

The soffit boards: I mentioned 1x material but I'm not sure what would be best. Remember, there are 2 soffit boards separated by a screen/vent. Can I buy some kind of 2" wide soffit vent screen and how does it connect to the 2 soffit boards?

« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 12:15:19 PM by ajbremer »
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Offline suburbancowboy

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #662 on: June 20, 2012, 05:36:57 AM »
When I did my roof sheeting I used a double pully system tied to the highest point of the trusses.   It made the sheets only feel like 20 pounds. I tied the rope around the sheet and then pulled them up.  This works best with three people.  One on the ground, one on the pulley and one putting the sheets in place.  One can do it, but it just means lots of ladder climbing.   We did mine using this method in about 3 hours.  Best day of the build when you finally have a covered roof.  Another suggestion would be to put a board on the end of the trusses for the osb to rest against until you get them nailed on.  It makes things much easier and everything stays level.  I think I used scrap 2X4's for this.  Good luck.  The roof has been my least favorite part.

Offline ajbremer

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #663 on: June 20, 2012, 06:04:10 AM »
Hey, thanks suburbancowboy,

I have been thinking hard lately about what I'll be doing to lift my sheets into position. Man, you had your sheets on in 3 hours with 3 people? That's great! I have decided to slow down a little bit on this roof build process, I believe it's very important to get it right and not be in a hurry and take shortcuts. So many things come tied together at roof time and if you put the roof on and forget about something...uh oh!
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Offline CjAl

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #664 on: June 20, 2012, 08:29:34 AM »
might not want to slow down too much. down here we are getting a storm every other day or more. i poured concrete monday and tuesday in the rain

Offline bayview

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #665 on: June 20, 2012, 11:46:45 AM »
Al:

   Personally, I would think that a 10” fascia board would be to large . . .    (My opinion)
   Maybe, use 2X4 sub fascia and 1X6 fascia.   Trimming the rafter as you had penciled as an example.





/.
    . . . said the focus was safety, not filling town coffers with permit money . . .

Offline ajbremer

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #666 on: June 20, 2012, 04:10:22 PM »
Wednesday Night - June 20th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Hey, thanks CjAl and bayview. Ya your right CjAl, I better not slow down now...I'm just saying I better not get in too much of a hurry and mess something up. Bayview, I see nothing wrong with using a shorter subfascia but I do have 2x8's left and I'm just about out of 2x6's and also I was thinking about how most of the time around here it's been pretty hot. Last year you can basically say there was no winter! I was digging my pier holes in 115 degree weather. All that to say, maybe with a longer fascia more of the house will be shaded?

Ok, I got the blocking done between the rafters on my north side now. Tomorrow it'll be time to layout my rafter end cuts. Wow, once their cut there'll be no turning back. I also plan on laying long 2x4's as lateral bracing just above where the first sheet row will be so that the rafters will be aligned properly. After that, I'll put my 2x8 subfacia on. I'm all out of 2x6's now but I do have 2x8's left. Then, when all of that's done, I should be ready to create my scafolding/stagging for lifting my sheets up to me. Maybe I'll be laying sheets on this weekend!

About the blocking that I just put in between the rafters: I noticed that there are some spots where you can see daylight between the edges and sometimes a tiny bit between the top-plate and the bottom of the blocking. Would it be wise to buy a can of foam insulation and spray around that area to make it air tight?

Thanks for all of your input. Here's a picture of my north side blocking I finished today:

« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 12:15:56 PM by ajbremer »
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Offline Don_P

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #667 on: June 20, 2012, 04:53:06 PM »
A deeper overhang creates shade fastest, think porch. What was driving the 10" fascia in my posts is the 2x8 fly rafters.

For scaffold you can nail horizontal scaffold support boards to the end walls and to the window jacks, vertical posts to ground under the far ends, 2x blocking under the horizontals at posts, walls and ends, then scaffold planking on top. A few X braces and it should be good.
 
It usually takes both of us for the first row, sliding the sheet down to the line from above and flushing up the ends. For the second and upper rows I usually slide the sheets out between the rafters, stand on the roof and pull them out from above. Grab it in the middle, lift it out, turn 90 and slap it on the rafters in front of you, slide it down into clips, nail the bottoms, pull the tops to layout and nail off. Michelle is usually stocking the sheets, popping layout lines for nailing and cutting on the floor while I work topside.

If this doesn't work google soffit return and hit the images tab, many styles are shown.
http://www.google.com/search?q=soffit+return&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&prmd=ivnsfd&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=qHbiT_yTCOnw0gHSwomvAw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

For steeper pitches I prefer the return flush with the wall, the other simple alternative is the "pork chop" where the return is out at the fly. On a steep pitched roof the pork chop gets mighty big and kind of fugly. Or you can get fancy.

Your drawing is correct, the rafter when in full scale is much deeper proportionally.
Soffit vent is sold as a 2" wide strip with out turned flanges to lip under the soffit boards. If we're doing wood Tongue &Groove soffits, I rip the tongue off the pieces facing the soffit vent leaving the V bevelled edge. I start at the fascia and work towards the wall. Strip soffit vent  needs to be dead straight, it is an obvious sight line. Hardi makes a 5/16" thick vented cement soffit board, aluminum and vinyl also has vented soffit panels. If you buy the expensive vinyl they write your name on the back so it can be returned after a storm  ;D.

Buy a case of 10 oz tubes of cheap latex caulk. Whenever you're bored start sealing. Areas like that, wherever 2 studs or plates come together, around headers, the floor to sole joint, etc, anywhere air can draft in.

Offline ajbremer

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #668 on: June 21, 2012, 01:51:38 PM »
Thursday - June 21st, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Got the little west gable end ridge beam extension done today, that's about all I got done on the house today. That west ridge beam extension wound up different then the east end one. I used 2 - 2x8's with osb in the middle where as the other end I used 2x12's. Oh well, no one will be able to look at both of them at the same time. I should have just used the 2x8's at the other end too.

I had to trim the tree that was right over the north/east corner next to the house and that was a couple hour job. My neighbor really help out a lot, he came over with one of them Stihl pole saws and we went to town for a couple hours. Then I had to clean up the mess and decided I might as well mow my back dirt...I mean lawn.

Here's a picture of that west ridge beam extension:



You can really see how the tree was trimmed in this picture:



And here's a north view with the tree trimmed:

« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 12:18:25 PM by ajbremer »
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Offline ajbremer

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #669 on: June 22, 2012, 08:01:26 AM »
Friday Morning - June 22nd, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

K, I found a way out of doing soffits and fascias at the end of my rafters, build a front and back porch where the porch rafters go on top of the wall plate and nail against the rafters end face - this is what I normally see here at countryplans when people do porches.

I know, I'm changing my mind again but it actually doesn't seem difficult to me. Digging the pier holes and doing the platform are methods that I've already done and can see myself doing. I know I've told y'all that I'm on a time limit but oh well, the home owners association here hasn't said or asked about me and I am on the downhill side of being dried in...kind of.

I have a porch question. Why do you hardly not see both a front and back porch when you go through the builds here? There's usually just one porch. I'm thinking structurally that it's not really much more of a strain on the walls right? I guess it's a financial and space decision whether or not to do both a front and back porch. Also, a 4 foot wide porch doesn't seem enough, a 6 foot wide porch...maybe even an 8 foot wide porch seems like the norm, but anymore than that would be unusual - right? What's the most common width? What's the most common porch roof pitch when paired up with the 12:12 pitch?

Tell me if I'm right, now I can just leave my main rafters alone and wait till I put the porch rafters on and then cut off the protruding main rafter lengths?

So here's what I figure I need to do now, get as much roof on as soon as I can!

Now that I'm ready to put my roof sheets on, I'll nail long boards on and perpendicular to the rafters, maybe about 2 feet (hypotenuse wise, going up following the rafter tops) away from the walls edge? That will act as a stop for the first row of sheets to drop down against, then go up from there. I would go up to the point where the ridge vent will still be able to be nailed over the edge of the osb. I'm leaving the 2 feet undone at the bottom so I can install my porch rafters which will be 2x6's. I can leave that area covered with the felt that will be nailed really good so that the rain won't get into the build. Then I can rip a sheet to cover that 2 foot section when it comes time.

How should the osb sheets meet where the osb of the 12:12 pitch meets the lesser pitch of the porch rafters? Something like this?

« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 12:19:00 PM by ajbremer »
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Offline CjAl

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #670 on: June 22, 2012, 08:17:10 AM »
i think not seeing rear porches is mainly a financial thing. that and it seems everyone wants a deck out back these days, myself i like porches. down by me its common to see the porch go around all four sides. we need to stay out of the sun its so hot. it also shades the windows from direct sun.

just try to keep the roof sheething over the porch sheething that way when you put water and ice shield on it there wont be a low spot to pool water.

i LOVE my ten foot porch. lots of room for anything. however it would never look right on a 20x32 house so i have decided to do a 6' porch on front and i will put a wide one on the rear. thats where we do most of our entertaining anyways

Offline CjAl

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #671 on: June 22, 2012, 08:21:30 AM »
if you go with a 6/12 pitch on a six foot wide porch with the bottom of your rafters ten foot high on the wall will put you at 7' at the front of the porch. minus a few inches for the horizontal support you will still be over 6' so it will not obstruct your line of sight. i wouldnt go higher then 6/12. 4/12 would work too but the steeper the better so leaves etc slide off.

also if it is in the budget i would consider doing something like 4x6" rafters on 4' centers with a tongue and groove for sheeting since you will see it unless you close it in underneath

Offline AdironDoc

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #672 on: June 22, 2012, 09:20:38 AM »
i LOVE my ten foot porch. lots of room for anything.

I have a 10ft porch on the rear of my 20x40 and couldn't agree more.
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=10791.75
I've always thought it's where we'd be spending time and the extra room allows for furniture. Nothing like sitting outside in a heavy downpour but staying nice and dry. Would have wrapped the porch all around but up north here, I appreciate the bright light and warmth of the sun shining in the windows. I don't think the size of the porch ended up out of proportion to the cabin, but then, I did limit it to the rear so we could sit and watch the creek. You can always screen it in and end up with a very functional 3 season room.




Maybe next time around, I'll go for 12ft!

Cheers,
Doc

Offline ajbremer

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #673 on: June 22, 2012, 10:02:41 AM »
Doc, that's a great looking porch man! And a great looking place too. A 12 foot porch would be awesome. Thanks for your post Doc.

Well, I was just outside popping some lines and making measurements for where my stop board will sit to rest my first row of sheets on when I noticed something that I did that I'll have to destroy.

Those with a keen eye would have noticed that I just finished putting my blocking in between the rafters. Well, my porch rafters can't go against my main rafters and also rest on the walls top plate with that blocking there. The blocking should have been done after all rafters are sitting on the top plate.

I wish I would have changed my mind about 4 or 5 days earlier. No biggie though, I'll just saw one end of each block 1-1/2" away from the rafter, carefully remove the nails, and then re-nail the blocking against the porch rafter. It's more work but it's worth a porch.

I would do this if it didn't hurt... d*

Click here to see our 20x30 and here to see our 14x24.

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
« Reply #674 on: June 22, 2012, 10:33:10 AM »
Quote
.....with a tongue and groove for sheeting since you will see it unless you close it in underneath

That made me think of something to mention. Not everyone minds seeing the underside of the roof sheathing over a porch. Some folks leave their soffits open as well, exposing the underside of the roof sheathing. When doing so, the sheathing that will have its underside exposed to the air should be exterior grade plywood, not OSB.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

 

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