Dresden Holocaust - ordered by Churchill

Started by glenn kangiser, February 15, 2011, 12:21:18 PM

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glenn kangiser

I often bring up in holocaust discussions one of the driving forces of Hitler's war effort.  Little is said about Churchill's attempt to provoke Hitler, and recent papers released of Hitler warning Churchill that if he did not stop bombing civilians he would have to react.  Going from memory of things I have read recently on that.






http://www.rense.com/general19/flame.htm

http://www.rense.com/general92/dres.htm
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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Squirl

Yes, there was a recent documentary on the targeting of civilian targets.  The more atrocious ones were not Dresden.  They were small mountain towns with a few thousand residents.  The theory was to destroy the means of production of the German war effort.  Dresden would have been one of the central targets because it was one of the industrial backbones of Germany.  Both the Americans and British were fairly open about this.  Half a million is an extreme exaggeration. That would have put the death toll above both atomic weapons combined and would have been almost 1% of the entire population of Germany in one bombing.   February 13, 1945 was the end of WWII, I don't know how this was provoking Hitler, he had already declared war on the British and U.S. years earlier and taken over most of Europe.

How does this relate to Hitler's holocaust?

I see this is from the extreme anti-semitic website rense.com.  I have seen the articles that come out of there.  There are many that are very pro Nazi, anti-semetic, and holocaust denial.


MountainDon

I'm not sure I understand the point of the post. 

Churchill, Roosevelt, et al,  were reacting to Hitlers Nazi party steamrollering over Europe.

Hitler was not exactly a model citizen.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

Shawn B

I think the fire bombing of Tokyo killed even more, somewhere around 500,000 souls perished. I talked with a aircrew member who was on the firebombing mission over Tokyo. He told that the heat from the fires pushed the bombers a few thousand feet higher than they wanted to go. He said it was like a hurricane of fire down below, hell on earth.

In some ways the allies were just as bad as the axis powers. Remember the winners of war write the history books so they decide what society collectively remembers or doesn't. Look at the humanity that was destroyed, 100 million dead possibly.
"The natural liberty of man is to be free from any superior power on Earth, and not to be under the will or legislative authority of man, but only to have the law of nature for his rule." Samuel Adams

MountainDon

#4
I'm not necessarily defending Dresden as a good thing. There is no doubt it was bad.

The statement about maybe half a million perishing is a sensationalist exaggeration, though.

In war everybody makes mistakes and errors of judgement. It is very easy to look back and say "this was terrible; should never have happened". It is a lot harder to make the right decisions, the decisions that history will decide were good or bad, when one is there on the ground that had been bombed by Hitler's armed forces.

All things considered, it probably would have been better is the Dresden bombings had not happened. How would that have changed the course of the war though, we can not say. There are lots of "what if's..." when looking back at history.

How would the war have worked out if Dresden or Hamburg had never been bombed? Would the war have been longer? I don't know.

How would events have unfolded if several off-course German bombers had not accidentally bombed residential areas of London? That caused the RAF to be instructed to bomb Berlin the very next night. That in turn prompted Hilter to command the Luftwaffe to bomb British cities. More than likely a great number of us alive today would have made similar decisions under those circumstances.

Rather than point fingers and say look at the bad $hit Churchill or Roosevelt did we should be looking to see how can we prevent history from repeating itself.

Churchill was not infallible, he was not a god, nor was he all knowing and without his own prejudices and faults. He did have fewer faults though than Hilter, Mussolini and Stalin. He also had a better overall grasp of current affairs than others in the British government at the time.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.


dug

I think Dresden illustrates how war is a ugly, brutal, and ruthless business- even if you are on the "good" side.  :(

glenn kangiser

There is no way of avoiding repeating history if it is allowed to be systematically written out of the history books.

My point of the post is that our governments do many evil things in our names then whitewash, cover them up and write them out of history.  Yes - what Hitler did was bad, but things we allow to be done because of the manufacturing of consent of the US propaganda machine are not any better.  Keeping quiet about them will not raise awareness of them, so an uneducated populace in the US will not even think of voicing opposition to murderous foreign policies that maim and kill humans in distant lands but also kill our own soldiers... (sons and daughters) and especially now on a vague undeclared war with an intangible enemy that can be moved as desired to anyplace that will suffice to serve the interests of big industry, big money and the war machine.

We are feeding the military industrial complex Ike warned about, and the profit making interests of the big money who owns our government and sees to it that more money than we can ever pay in tax is transferred to the pockets of investors and corporate America now.... not later... our kids future is being spent right now.

Rense is not antisemitic, but does allow many including other Israeli's who don't agree with their own home country's policies to have a voice.  That does get him labeled as antisemitic.  I prefer to view it as being open minded.  He has publicly stated and shown that he is not antisemitic.

So many massacres by government and religion all covered up to try to make us always look like angels.  Disgusting I say, no matter who does it.  I know people from many of these countries and have Jewish ancestors. I have been invited to stay with them in their homes.   Nearly none of the civilians are guilty of anything except wanting to live a peaceful life.  Power, greed, politics and religion cause "collateral damage"... a term that should be substituted with the words.... Cold Blooded Murder.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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John Raabe

War is Hell...

By definition a total war, none since WW2 thankfully, means you do anything within your power to destroy your enemy. ANYTHING now includes a lot of nasty stuff.

And when it's over the winner does what Shawn B noted - writes up the history book to show how the good guys won.
None of us are as smart as all of us.

glenn kangiser

Governments have outdone themselves in ways of making the public think that one country or another is the enemy.  Manufacturing consent has been honed to a fine art, to the point that most of the people do not even realize the extent to which they are being manipulated.

They then think it is their will that we go get the bad guys and annihilate them, when in reality, it was actually our foreign policy that created more bad guys than we can ever deal with.

This insures that the manufacturers and investors in the war machines continue to profit, many times from both sides of the game.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

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Shawn B

If we look at the circumstances that cause "major" wars it is almost always the result of nations entering into defense packs with other nations. Entangling alliances is one of the greatest concerns the u.S. Founding Fathers had for the Republic too survive. Another example is governments methods of demonizing entire populations, just because they don't trust, like, condone the gov't of said nation. As a child in the 1980's I could never understand why everyone seemed to hate the peoples of Russia ? Even today there is still a trade embargo and some travel restrictions on Cuba. Americans can not bring back a simple box of Cuban cigars, simply because of gov't madness. It is gov'ts and complicit and complacent citizens that allow wars to happen.

In my opinion WWII was the last "necessary" American war. Even it could have been prevented had the post WWI Allies treated the German citizens a little better; and if the moneyed interests of Europe and America been held in check.
"The natural liberty of man is to be free from any superior power on Earth, and not to be under the will or legislative authority of man, but only to have the law of nature for his rule." Samuel Adams

rwanders

Human history, even in recent times, is incredibly difficult to nail down----our perceptions about events and persons constantly change----like mirages in the desert, their shapes change before our eyes and in our minds. Simplistic theories purporting to assign blame or identify motives driving decisions made by persons long gone, facing situations and pressures we can only dimly appreciate will likely prove to be as illusive as those desert fantasies are. All of us would change many of our decisions and actions if we could only look back at ourselves a few years or decades later along with information we did not have then. Revisionist history invariably makes villains out of all of our ancestors and will eventually be applied to all of us too-----by our descendants.
Rwanders lived in Southcentral Alaska since 1967
Now lives in St Augustine, Florida

Windpower

You got it Glenn

Ike was right

So was Kennedy

http://www.livevideo.com/video/DE0F6D8F85BF4BC9857BACF67F732E74/hegel-media-conspiracy.aspx

I would like to think that the USA would be a different place had JFK served 2 full terms
Often, our ignorance is not as great as our reluctance to act on what we know.

glenn kangiser

Can't have the puppets doing things the puppet masters don't approve of.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

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Windpower


"There does exist, and has existed for a generation, an international anglophile network which operates, to some extent, in the way the radical Right believes the Communists act. In fact, this network, which we may identify as the Round Table Groups, has no aversion to cooperating with the communists, or any other group, and frequently does so. I know of the operations of this network because I have studied it for twenty years and was permitted for two years, in the early 1960s, to examine its papers and secret records. I have no aversion to it or to most of its aims and have, for much of my life, been close to it and to many of its instruments ... I have objected both in the past and recently, to a few of its policies ... but in general my chief difference of opinion is that it wishes to remain unknown, and I believe its role in history is significant enough to be known ... The Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) ... the American Branch of a society which originated in England (by diamond king, Cecil Rhodes) ... believes national boundaries should be obliterated and [a] one-world rule established."

Professor Carroll Quigley, CFR member, Tragedy and Hope: A History of the World in Our Time (1966)


"The powers of financial capitalism had (a) far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland; a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank... sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

Professor Carroll Quigley, CFR member, Tragedy and Hope: A History of the World in Our Time (1966)

Often, our ignorance is not as great as our reluctance to act on what we know.


Woodsrule

I think my grandfather would agree that war is hell. He died two days before WWII ended while patrolling in Czechoslavakia. He was involved in liberating concentration camp victims and would most certainly have told us that the German war machine could not have been stopped but for Dresden and other actions. Yes, civilians die in war and that is regrettable, but inevitable. Remember, we tried to stay out of WWII, but could do so for only so long. Regardless of what we may wish, want or hope for, war will always be with us in some way, shape or form. Many of us here served in the military and trained for war, but hoped for peace. Our side was right during WWII and no amount of looking back will change that.

rwanders


 
   
Re: Dresden Holocaust - ordered by Churchill
« Reply #13 on: Today at 04:26:15 AM »
Quote

"There does exist, and has existed for a generation, an international anglophile network which operates, to some extent, in the way the radical Right believes the Communists act. In fact, this network, which we may identify as the Round Table Groups, has no aversion to cooperating with the communists, or any other group, and frequently does so. I know of the operations of this network because I have studied it for twenty years and was permitted for two years, in the early 1960s, to examine its papers and secret records. I have no aversion to it or to most of its aims and have, for much of my life, been close to it and to many of its instruments ... I have objected both in the past and recently, to a few of its policies ... but in general my chief difference of opinion is that it wishes to remain unknown, and I believe its role in history is significant enough to be known ... The Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) ... the American Branch of a society which originated in England (by diamond king, Cecil Rhodes) ... believes national boundaries should be obliterated and [a] one-world rule established."

Professor Carroll Quigley, CFR member, Tragedy and Hope: A History of the World in Our Time (1966)


"The powers of financial capitalism had (a) far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland; a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank... sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

Professor Carroll Quigley, CFR member, Tragedy and Hope: A History of the World in Our Time (1966)


Windpower-----I notice you do not quote Quigly in his later years when he repudiates the conspiracy theories you attempt to link him to.  It must be discouraging to live with a world view wherein we all are merely mindless puppets controlled by mysterious cabals of evil geniuses. How lucky we are to have you to alert the rest of us sheep before it is too late. No doubt the Round Table is in cahoots with the Masons; the Illuminati; the Templars; Knights of Columbus; the Rosicrucians; the International Zionist Conspiracy; the Tri-Lateral Commission; the Bilderburgs and certainly the Rothschilds with overall control by Adolf Hitler clones hiding in their lair below the Vatican
Rwanders lived in Southcentral Alaska since 1967
Now lives in St Augustine, Florida

Sassy

Over 2000 years ago James stated it pretty clearly in the Bible...

1 "Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures."  James 4:1-3
http://glennkathystroglodytecabin.blogspot.com/

You will know the truth & the truth will set you free

Shawn B

How can Quigley repudiate what he wrote in "Tragedy and Hope" ? So, what he is admitting to false statements, errors, or out right lying ? Who can he blame these statements on, other than himself ?

"The natural liberty of man is to be free from any superior power on Earth, and not to be under the will or legislative authority of man, but only to have the law of nature for his rule." Samuel Adams

Sassy

If Quigley did repudiate his statements it was probably forced on him because he revealed too much.  He was a professor of Bill Clinton's...  the publishers of Tragedy & Hope took it off the market fairly fast IIRC - it's pretty hard to get a copy & they are very expensive.

One of the reasons history repeats itself is those people who close their eyes to the movers & shakers behind the scenes...
http://glennkathystroglodytecabin.blogspot.com/

You will know the truth & the truth will set you free

rwanders

Attempting to address conspiracy theory fallacies always proves to be useless----bebunking a theorist's assertions (they are rarely factual) always just results in another assertion that the contrary information is just another part of the "conspiracy" or the other person is a dupe of the mysterious evil geniuses. A favorite tact is to quote other conspiracy theorists assertions to support their own assertions---a kind of circular BS firing squad-----round and round it goes but, it never actually arrives anywhere. These folks will never run out of navel lint to pick at, though it does provide the occasional moment of mirth.
Rwanders lived in Southcentral Alaska since 1967
Now lives in St Augustine, Florida


Shawn B

Again, how is it a conspiracy theory on what Quigley wrote ? He, himself wrote the book and documented his actions, interactions, observations of various people and organizations. This is not a conspiracy that Quigley wrote the book.

"The natural liberty of man is to be free from any superior power on Earth, and not to be under the will or legislative authority of man, but only to have the law of nature for his rule." Samuel Adams

OlJarhead

So many good posts it's hard to jump in now...so perhaps I shouldn't.  My take:

Hitler was a bad dude who with the help of the socialists (National Socialist Party of Germany, later known as the Nazi's) managed to convince an entire population that it was ok to kill 6 million jews -- because of eugenics I guess.  But he got the idea to gas them (actually his people did) from the Fabian Socialists in England -- namely George Barnard Shaw (whom you studied in school I'm sure, but I'm qually sure they never mentioned that) and then of course his buddy Maynard Keynes came up with the way we conduct our economy to this day, as well as the idea that created the World Bank and the IMF and perhaps some day one world currency -- Look it up, it's easy if you just do a little research....but I digress.

After WW1 the world powers (banks involved here) put too many demands on Germany which lead to the mess of WWII really...again, look it up.

As for war, and I repeat Hitler was a bad dude no doubt, it is hell and once in it you'd better be in it to win.  Come 'hell or high water'.

However, why did we enter WWI or WWII really?  If Chase isn't mentioned then you're probably missing something...or other bankers.  It is often sold as one thing but in reality something else.

I think the founding fathers had it right and we need to reconsider our foreign policy -- but that does not mean we don't help those in need if such a need really does arise (killing 6 million Jews was certainly a need) but the crux of the problem is both "what need is great enough" and "how much is too much"?

In the end I'd personally be happy if we pulled our troops OUT OF EVERY COUNTRY around the world and went neutral.

rwanders



"In the end I'd personally be happy if we pulled our troops OUT OF EVERY COUNTRY around the world and went neutral."   Quote from OlJarhead

An occasional thought by all of us, I'm sure.  Didn't we try that before WWI (except for the Phillipines and a few banana republics) and again before WWII?  How did that work out for us?
Rwanders lived in Southcentral Alaska since 1967
Now lives in St Augustine, Florida

Windpower

quote
"Windpower-----I notice you do not quote Quigly in his later years when he repudiates the conspiracy theories you attempt to link him to."
unquote

You need to back up this BS, Rwanders

I listened to an Interview with Quigley by Dr Monteif shortly before Quigley passed

He complaine bitterly abbout the publisher destroying the printing plates for his book so that he could not do a second printing

so if he really repudiated his work in Tragedy and Hope why would he want to reprint it


doesn't make sense does it 

your 'arguments' are very lame Rwanders

Let's see some back up of your assertions about Quigley repudiating his book.

Often, our ignorance is not as great as our reluctance to act on what we know.

glenn kangiser

I agree with OlJarhead.

Partial Quote From What Really Happened.com  

Since the 1979 Iranian revolution and the downfall of the US Puppet Ruler the Shah, Iran has been an Islamic state. In that interval of time, 1979 to the present, Iran has not invaded anyone. Not once. People of all religions live in peace in Iran, even Jews, who find life so comfortable in Iran they refused an offer by the government of Israel to emigrate!

In the same period of time, the United States, officially a secular nation but predominantly Christian, attacked El Salvador (1980), Libya (1981), Sinai (1982), Lebanon (1982 1983), Egypt (1983), Grenada (1983), Honduras (1983), Chad (1983), Persian Gulf (1984), Libya (1986) , Bolivia (1986), Iran (1987), Persian Gulf (1987), Kuwait (1987), Iran (1988), Honduras (1988), Panama (1988), Libya (1989), Panama (1989), Colombia, Bolivia, and Peru (1989), Philippines (1989), Panama (1989-1990), Liberia (1990), Saudi Arabia (1990), Iraq (1991), Zaire (1991), Sierra Leone (1992), Somalia (1992), Bosnia-Herzegovina (1993 to present), Macedonia (1993), Haiti (1994), Macedonia (1994), Bosnia (1995), Liberia (1996), Central African Republic (1996), Albania (1997), Congo/Gabon (1997), Sierra Leon (1997), Cambodia (1997), Iraq (1998), Guinea/Bissau (1998), Kenya/Tanzania (1998 to 1999), Afghanistan/Sudan (1998), Liberia (1998), East Timor (1999), Serbia (1999), Sierra Leon (2000), Yemen (2000), East Timor (2000), Afghanistan (2001 to present), Yemen (2002), Philippines (2002) , Cote d'Ivoire (2002), Iraq (2003 to present), Liberia (2003), Georgia/Djibouti (2003), Haiti (2004), Georgia/Djibouti/Kenya/Ethiopia/Yemen/Eritrea War on Terror (2004), Pakistan drone attacks (2004 to present), Somalia (2007), South Ossetia/Georgia (2008), Syria (2008), Yemen (2009), Haiti (2010), etc. etc. etc. etc.

So, who is the danger to world peace?

http://whatreallyhappened.com/content/iran-danger-world-peace-i-dont-think-so-1
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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