Jemez burning

[NM_Shooter]

I am tired of idiots.

The Jemez forest (not far from Mtn Don's cabin) is on fire.  It started Monday after some camper on FR376 neglected to attend to their campfire and left it.  Last night it was up to 300 acres.

That section of the forest gets heavily used by the locals who come in on holiday weekends, and leave huge piles of trash behind.  Diapers, booze containers, food wrappers, plastic bags, feces, you name it.   The clean up effort is always tremendous. 

We were camping with our family at a developed campground over the weekend, and spoke to both a couple of rangers and a law enforcement officer who said that it had already been a really bad weekend for disturbances.  The locals tend to be hostile, inbred, inconsiderate, and unintelligent.  Trust me when I say I am being gracious in that description. 

Anyway, now one of the prettiest parts of the Jemez mountains is on fire.  This is the road that we frequently take visitors when we want to show off the beauty of the state. 

As much as I hate the "Big Brother is Watching" aspect, perhaps it is time for some changes.  Maybe someone needs to travel the open camping areas, record license plates and start to hold folks accountable for leaving a hot fire pit and trash behind. 

I suspect that the Jemez mountains will soon be closed to camping, except in designated camp areas. 

What a pity. 

[MountainDon]

We're about 11 miles SE of the fire.  Yesterday the smoke was blowing across to the east north of us. Today the winds have reversed.

Latest news is that the fire has grown to about 1400 acres. On the east side, the fire has burned into the fire scar from the human caused Lakes Wildfire fire that burned approximately 4,000 acres in August of 2002.

Resources Committed: 3 Type 1 hotshot crews, 1 Type 2 crew, 17 engines,  1 water tender, 1 dozer, air attack and lead plane, 4 Type 1 Helicopters, 1 Type 3 helicopter, 4 air tankers, Archuleta's Type 3 Incident Management Team and various overhead. Craig Cowie's New Mexico Type 2 Incident Management Team has been ordered to manage the fire. In addition, other resources are being ordered.


The Jemez Rangert District forest officials put out 17 abandoned campfires over the memorial Day weekend.


Frank, the handwriting has been on the wall for over a year now. Some of the proposals in the Travel Management Plan include things like eliminating primitive or "wild" camping along virtually all the roads/trails in the Santa Fe National Forest. It stinks, but at times like this one has to wonder. Nothing is set in concrete yet, but I'm waiting to see what the final released proposals will bring.

Of course there are still the dickheads like the one I followed back up yesterday; flicking cigarette ashes out their window.

[NM_Shooter]

When I think about the old growth destruction because some lazy SOB can't put out a campfire, or clean an ashtray I get pretty pissed. 

It sounds as though the fire is progressing west from 376?  I am hoping the Guadalupe riparian area is not affected.

Crap....1400 acres.  That is a huge growth in the fire. 

[MountainDon]

1925 acres. Zero containment.  

[rick91351]

Don look on the bright side  1925 acres is only 3.0078125 square miles.   

Really sorry to hear about this fire.  Sure hope they get a handle on it soon. 

[Native_NM]

I've spent too many nights to count camping in the Jemez, Carson, and Cibola.  The holidays are the worst for all the reasons noted above.  I think a better strategy to limit fires is to CLOSE the campgrounds and make everyone camp in UNDEVELOPED sites.  About 95% of the people would quit camping.   

[MountainDon]

The specific location (where the fire was first reported)  Lat 35° 50´ 59″, Lon 106° 45´ 41″


While I agree that there are many people I'd rather never have to share the forest with, closing campgrounds would have little impact on fire dangers, IMO. Most, if not all, the campgrounds now have "hosts" at least during the busy season. They can at least help in keeping campground fires controlled. The FS guys I spoke with said the fires they found unattended and hot with live coals were located in undeveloped, unofficial areas. That is known as dispersed camping in FS lingo. There are more dispersed campsites than developed sites at present.

The FS wants to go in the other direction, limiting dispersed camping (if successful that might cut down on environmental damages, but it would ruin outdoor activities for many)....  right from the FS Travel Management Proposed Action document.... "The Travel Management Rule will restrict motorized access, meaning people cannot get to their favorite dispersed camping sites, and camping close to cars will be severely limited."   The maps showing the proposals severely limit the opportunities for dispersed camping. In my area there would be virtually none allowed. Good for us I suppose in that there would be fewer other folks around. But it still strikes me as unfair, undesirable and wrong.

This is not just my local forest where this is happening. It has already happened in many of the National Forests. The Santa Fe National Forest is behind their schedule. I'd like to think it's because of the vociferous input from pro-forest-users like myself. I know the other side (the close all roads crowd) has been very vocal.

Sorry to go on and on on this, but I take forest and public lands access seriously and I lose my sense of humor at times when confronted with the subject.

[rick91351]

One down side to stopping 'dispersed camping' is the FS - BLM knows where 99% of those sites are.  If they put a stop to that practice as in the past it has only served the purpose of driving people further into the 'bush'.  One thing that I am really in favor of is containment areas i.e. fire pits or rings in those places away from the fuels.  However with that said most of those geniuses that start these things would never use one or run over it with the four wheel drive or use it for an oil change. 

[MountainDon]

One thing that I am really in favor of is containment areas i.e. fire pits or rings in those places away from the fuels.

That's where the problem with dispersed camping comes in. There are no fire rings, no pits. At most there may be some rock rings from previous use. Add to that the fact that a lot of the numskulls don't have a clue as to what hidden dangers there may be.

Here's a photo of how a small fire un-ringed fire can eat it's way outwards through the duff and then take off down an old root system that was not even visible on the surface.



The holes angled down for 2 to 3 feet.

[Native_NM]

Good points, Don.  On the other hand, other than the holiday weekends, most of the people I have seen in the "bush" are pretty responsible.  I have camped a mile from San Antonio or Redondo camprgounds and been the only one around.  

According to one website I found, most of the fires in NM are caused by lightning.  On the other hand, the bad ones always seem to be man-made.  We were up off FR132 a few years back and had the Ranger stop by and confirm we had an axe, bucket, and shovel.  Maybe if they set up a roadblock and did an equipment check it would help educate the masses - especially around the holidays.   I saw an article where some rangers were carrying the new laser temp guns to look for smoldering fires at the campsites.  If you didn't leave it stone cold out you faced a hefty fine.  I think it was CA.  I would be OK with that also.  

I share your frustration, as we are an avid outdoor family.   Early last summer we went for a group camp to San Antonio right up 126 past La Cueva and there were some really nasty folks there.  The host was worthless - she was older and didn't want any trouble - and refused to deal with the problem.  She locked herself in her 5th wheel and called it a night.   Loud music, huge fires, and lots of alcohol.    

As you might know, they closed that area for a complete remodel.  I understand they are putting in showers.   Might as well build a motel.

The primary reason we are building is to avoid that mess, as well as the fear of forest closure.  As it stands now, there have been serious fire restrictions for 6 of the last 8 years according to my diary.  Even if one finds a spot there are open-flame restrictions, which seems to take all the fun out of camping!  Your setup is ideal;  we just need it a little bigger.

Another thought I have is a better resevervation system.  Lots of families from the city head to the Jemez hoping for a developed site.  When they are full, they head to undeveloped sites rather than drive back.  They really are not prepared to camp outside a developed area.  Reserving a spot in NM (other than the state parks) is a worthless endeavor, which is why we primarily don't like it.  I have a small trailer and am fully equipped for undeveloped camping.

[MountainDon]

Getting off the topic some more.... In all the years I've camped I've used developed campsites very little. Usually only when forced to because of restrictions on dispersed camping or because of the need for a shower. When we bought our RV years ago that removed the need to search out campsites with showers. The RV has seen very few paid campsites. We sometimes used more water to extinguish the campfires than we used for all other uses.

[MountainDon]

I saw an article where some rangers were carrying the new laser temp guns to look for smoldering fires at the campsites.

That's what I use at our cabin when burning slash, etc. But that's only in early spring or if we've had soaking rain.  Winter is best. We prepare piles and tarp them to keep the snow off.

[MountainDon]

I've been told by both state and FS foresters that before "we" began suppressing all wildfires fires would start in June/July in the Jemez, caused by lightning strikes. Some would be extinguished if the rain was heavy enough. Others would burn themselves out after burning a few acres if not fanned by the winds. Others would burn until snow would fall in November/December. They would wind around here and there. Most areas would be burned once in a 5 to 10 year period. Now today we have a big tinderbox because of prevention efforts and the lack of logging and/or thinning.

[NM_Shooter]

More thread drift here....

We camped at Redondo over the weekend.  We reserved and paid in advance for spot #27.  We arrived to a completely full campground, including someone poaching on #27.  When I told him that I had reserved the spot and that he had to leave, he became hostile, and insisted he was not going anywhere.  On top of it, he didn't have a truck to pull his camper off.  He said his son towed for him.  

A couple of rangers showed up just then, and talked to him.  He said that when he pulled in, there was no reservation card on the site.  The rangers said that they could not remember if they had put the card up.  To make matters worse, the campground host was a no-show, so they had no on-site supervision.  I also heard that due to lack of funding, they might no longer have campground hosts.  If they do that it will be a disaster.  

In many places of NM, mostly in the North, the locals are dangerous, and they have a hard time keeping a host in the camp.  At the campground near Sipapu (Aqua Piedra?) the campground host had a bullet run through their trailer after calling the sheriff on a group that got out of hand earlier in the day.  

Luckily we had friends in Redondo, and the FS allowed us to double park on their spot, and refunded our money.  Still, I was pissed and if I had a rotten egg I would have used it.

[NM_Shooter]

BLOK ranch is a mess for fire issues.  Our forest is overgrown, and we have a ton of down and dead trees.  We are hopefully going to start logging this year.  Luckily we have two things going for us.  Our ranch is very, very wet.  Still have snow pack, and springs and marshes all summer.  Lots of rain too.  I've never been up there for two days straight without seeing rain or snow.

Second is that we are surrounded on two sides by a lot of reservation land... the Chama Land and Cattle / elk ranch.  It is protected from tresspass heavily (even from the indian population) so not much person-induced fire problems there.  Lightning is an issue. 

Don, I was thinking about your manicured property and how that will likely save your caboose some time (like it already did!)

[rick91351]

I vote for BLM /FS road blocks which can be very educational as well as on site education. 

On the other hand, the bad ones always seem to be man-made.  We were up off FR132 a few years back and had the Ranger stop by and confirm we had an axe, bucket, and shovel.  Maybe if they set up a roadblock and did an equipment check it would help educate the masses - especially around the holidays.   I saw an article where some rangers were carrying the new laser temp guns to look for smoldering fires at the campsites.  If you didn't leave it stone cold out you faced a hefty fine.  I think it was CA.  I would be OK with that also.  

I have not seen a FS road block in our area for about fifty years.  When I was real small may be six years old I do remember getting stopped going up to the ranch at a FS roadblock.  The rangers knew my dad of course yet still checked us for the shovel, ax and bucket.  I have never forgotten that and the importance they placed on fire safety and prevention.  I mentioned this to a guy at work.  He uses the forest all the time and he had never heard that you need to have a shovel, ax and bucket during fire season.  He got strangely hostile and telling me the Nazis you never can keep up with all the new stuff and what they could do with the shovel.  I had to tel him that rule was a lot older than he was.             

[MountainDon]

On the route to our cabin we pass at least two FS yellow and red signs that dictate a shovel and axe (?) are needed for camping.  I sort of don't see them anymore, but always have a shovel and more than likely a chain saw and water.  I can't recall how many trees we've come upon that have fallen across the forest service roads. Chain saw beats an axe any day for that. 

[NM_Shooter]

Hmmmm.

I may invest in four 55 gal drums for water and a gas powered water pump.  Maybe I'll start cruising the forest roads mid day on the last day of the holiday looking for hot fire pits. 

A guy has to have a hobby.

[Native_NM]

I've been told by both state and FS foresters that before "we" began suppressing all wildfires fires would start in June/July in the Jemez, caused by lightning strikes. Some would be extinguished if the rain was heavy enough. Others would burn themselves out after burning a few acres if not fanned by the winds. Others would burn until snow would fall in November/December. They would wind around here and there. Most areas would be burned once in a 5 to 10 year period. Now today we have a big tinderbox because of prevention efforts and the lack of logging and/or thinning.

Agreed.  Many of the "environmentalists" cause more damage than those of us who actually live, work, and play out there on a regular basis.

[rwanders]

Since the snow melted, we have had(have) some 280 wildfires burning and they have consumed over 660 square miles of Alaska----most are started by lightning strikes but, we too have our share of 'human" fires. -----fortunately,we still have about 660,000 square miles left.

[MountainDon]

1356 acres for todays figure as the fire is 100% contained.

We followed several of the wildfire support service vehicles heading off to someplace else as we drove into town today.  One of the trailers lost a wheel on a tandem axle set. The wheel & tire unit rolled down Hwy 4 for maybe a quarter mile, even making it around a curve somehow. It almost hit an oncoming car and wiped out a mailbox set along the roadside before bouncing over an embankment. The driver of the tow vehicle didn't see a thing. We followed him for 20 miles but the group of three were leadfooting it and we lost them as we slowed down for the speed zones. There are several revenue producing restricted speed zones along the way. They didn't slow much at all while we did. I don't need a stinking ticket from any of the villages or pueblos along the route. When he finally stops he'll have a surprise, if the remaining tire didn't blow first.

[NM_Shooter]

Don, consider reporting to the Forest Service so they can attend to damages.