Am I crazy?

[wildbil]

This week has me doubting myself. My family and wife believe I've gone over the edge of insanity,that I should just get a regular dose of prescription anti-depressants. All I want to do is become simple, self sufficient, and debt free. Here is my situation:

I live in a small town in the awful state of Michigan. My wife will never leave this town as she wants to be near family and she has a decent job(I agree, I like where I live too). There are absolutely no jobs in this area and no educational or training programs worth going for either.

Now I do have a job; I'm an orderly at the local hospital. I am considered in the "pool" which is corporate slang for "slave". I get no perks, only an hourly wage, no vacation or time off if I need it. I get mandated for overtime almost every other day, for which a refusal gets a "writeup" in my permanent record. It has also been pointed out to everyone who works there that we can easily be replaced, even though it is a unionized workplace.(union seems to be on its deathbed) So to keep up with my bills I must march in order and always do what I'm told. I'm a lowly orderly, which requires little education, so people with a degree feel that I can be talked down to and directed like a child. They don't realize I have had 3 years of college education for which the medical career I was going for, never panned out.

And on top of that, I must tend to sick and dying people constantly. I'm always sick; I'm paranoid of the bacteria and germs I could spread into my own home. If we are giving healthcare on par to the rest of the States I'll confidently say that America has a 3rd world health system. And that even as life expectancy goes up, quality of life, for these people in our system, is lagging.

This is my job. My life...My wife and I drive nice vehicles, we own a nice house in a suburb, Have a smart beautiful daughter, generally we seem like the all-american family starting out in our early 20's. We are a shell of happiness. I own everything most people could ever want. All the money we ever make goes directly to debt or bills, no savings. Yes, I'm guilty of being a materialistic, waster. That's all I ever seen growing up and of my friends lives. About a year ago I began planning my escape from this horrible cycle.

So when I say I'd give away my house and cars and gadgets and TVs and assorted valuable junk, just to be a truely free human being, I must be insane. If I need money I want to have someone pay me for the value of my work, not the cost of my time. I need all of that time, its not for sale!

When did we stop living and start giving all of our lives to keep a perpetual machine moving, that is society? Why was I taught all my young life that this is the way it SHOULD and HAS to be? Why do people think any of these things that I own mean something to me? Why is it so impossible for some people to see this big illusion?

"If everyone did what they want we wouldnt have garbage men or janitors." Thats one excuse people tell me. If everyone did want they want, people would just have to take care of their own garbage and start cleaning up after themselves, right?

My wife says she loves me and that if I ever get this cabin built, she would be happy to simplify our family, then she turns around and tells me that we will never have the money and that this is not what normal people obsess about. Here is the 3 step plan that seems so controversial to everyone I know:

1. buy wooded 2 acre parcel(private)
2. build and move into a very small(12x18,14x18,14x20,16x16?) off grid cabin. reign in our debt. widdle ourselves down to bare possessions. eventually not needing my slave wage will open opportunities for me to explore, her as well.
3. either build or add on for reasonable debt free home. no debt, low bills= freedom from selling my entire life away.

Why is this plan so outrageous? Why is it so wrong and impossible if I would like to be different than everyone else? And this is not only for me. Isn't there so many benefits for less materialistic families? Am I missing something? I have no problem if somebody else wants to stay in the system, But pleeeeasssse people let me get out!

Thank you for listening to my insane rant...

Wildbil

[Squirl]

Yes the reactions from other hampters on the wheel of debt can be interesting.  I had a good example from a friend while growing up.  Her parents were lawyers.  They made a bunch of money in their first few years.  Enough to buy a small house in a rural area with a good school.  Then they retired and spent their years working part time for non profits and raising their children.

That is usually the first reaction I get from people.  "But what will you do for money?"  My response is usually, but what will I need to pay for?  They look at you dumbfounded because they spend every penny that comes in and can't imagine it any other way. 

[ScottA]

No you aren't crazy. 

[StinkerBell]

No you are not crazy. However I will say this that even when Moses freed the Jews from Egypt, some of them wanted to go back to slavery, because it was the only life they knew. The great unknown is scary for some, an adventure for others and for the few it is a true freedom.

[harry51]

Wildbil, if you have already identified the problem and come up with a perfectly doable plan when you are still in your twenties, you are waaaay ahead of most people. All you need now are patience and persistence.

Learn all you can about the real estate market for rural property in your area, both with and without a dwelling. Look, look, and look some more. Then you'll know a good deal, and also a bad one, when you see it. While doing your R.E. due diligence, draw floor plans, look at the plans here which are already worked out and thought out, and get a firm idea with your wife what appeals and will work for you, and what you absolutely don't like, as well.

Cut unnecessary expenses. Look at entertainment subscriptions, magazines that show up but don't always get read, energy issues around the house, food and clothing purchases and usage (sometimes it's amazing how much gets bought and thrown away, or bought and stuck in a closet and never used. Happens to all of us to some degree) with an eye to finding money to pay off debt as fast as possible to minimize interest costs. Try to get by without using plastic, and if possible, get to where if you do, you pay the entire balance each month so there's no interest charges or other fees.

Once the debt is under control, down to a mortgage payment and maybe a car payment if absolutely necessary, start saving to buy the property. The more money you have going in, the more leverage you have as a buyer. You may even find something with a house on it you can be comfortable in, or at least use (here I'm thinking elderly but temporarily habitable mobile home or similar) while you build the house you have planned.

I've scrounged a lot of material from Craigslist, cull lumber sales at lumber yards, etc. Start watching when building is getting close AND you know exactly what you need, especially for expensive items like glulam beams, engineered lumber, doors and windows, etc. But don't start collecting much stuff too soon, as it does deteriorate and presents storage issues. When you get to this point, talk to people about who to hire for jobs like well drilling, septic systems, etc. that you may not be equipped to handle yourself. It's amazing how much trouble a simple conversation with a neighbor or chance acquaintance can save you, and how often good deals are discovered the same way.

Stay with your job, but keep an eye peeled for an opportunity to make a constructive change. Would working with medically challenged people in their homes instead of in the hospital be better, financially and aggravation-wise? I knew a woman who made good money working for a wheelchair transportation service. I suggest the medical area because you are qualified in it already, and there is demand no matter what happens. Could you just move to another hospital or care facility? It's possible just a change of venue and management would make a big difference in the aggravation level at work.

Whatever you do, keep your eye on the ball, and take care of yourself physically and mentally. Be loving, especially to your wife and kids, and try hard to be serene. Keep in mind that you do, after all, have a lot to be thankful for in your family and the fact that even still, we in this country have more opportunity than most people on the planet can even dream of. And at your age, time is still on your side.

It looks to me as if you have realized that the dream you were chasing was partly false. You now have a new dream to replace that false (the materialistic, cog-in-the-wheel, grab the brass ring, keep up with the Joneses) part, so plan to make the change, work toward it, and take satisfaction in the small victories. The big ones will follow.

I wish you and yours strength, health, and all the best.

H.

[muldoon]

It doesn't sound crazy to me, but I also think you may be a bit ambitious in your goals.  As you have said, you've been on the treadmill for a while, loaded up with debt, living paycheck to paycheck, and now you want out.  I understand that but changing your life 180 degrees is pretty tough for most to do.  To be honest, there is a good possibility that your family is quite happy chasing the dream of prosperity. 

I don't see why you cant start moving towards your goals in your existing lifestyle where you are now.  Nothing stopping you from paring down your possessions now, nothing stopping you from starting a garden now in the backyard you already have, nothing stopping you from paying off debt and cutting the cords for new debt, nothing stopping you from teaching your daughter some important life lessons about commercialization, about consuming, about life, about the system you clearly understand.  They dont have to be direct as in "this is bad", but some subtle things about the important things in life will go along way. 

I personally do not believe checking out of the system is the best bet at this point.  Others on site will disagree with me and thats ok.  I want my children to be able to survive in the world, because I do not know what life has in store for them.  While I want to protect them and hide them away from such a perverse system I also want them to have their eyes open and be able to navigate within it as is needed.   One thing I have learned from living on the coast during the hurricanes is that honestly and truly there is still a lot of good in people.  When times get tough, people will pull together and help each other.  Yes some bad elements need to be dealt with, but overall there is much strength in communities.  Some of the people who fared the worst were those who isolated themselves from everyone else. 

I guess what I am trying to say is to rethink the order of your plan. I don't know why you have to wait until you buy property, then build, then move, then reign in your debt.  You should be getting smaller and simpler now while it is easier to do so.  You will need a solid plan to get where your going, but it is certainly attainable.  It will take time, perhaps a decade to accomplish it.  It's worthwhile and I think you should always be working to better your situation, regardless of where you are at. 

Also, go into your backyard and mark out a 12x18 square with string and stakes.  Seriously, do this.  Get all of your family inside of that box and imagine living there, bathing there, cooking there, eating there, sleeping there, watching tv there, playing, etc.   You may get an understanding why your wife is hesitant to the idea if you are used to living larger.   Keep talking - listen to her concerns and go from there.   

[Bishopknight]

Muldoons got a good point about marking out a 12x18 square, but don't let that stop you. I needed to build my 12x16 to get the 'confidence' in order to build the 30x40. I've gotten my $4000 worth out of the 12x16 already.

I'm glad you've realized this in your late 20's. I realized it when I was 30. You're right, this is a machine, we are peasants. Its becoming more and more apparent for people as time goes on. The Matrix is more truth than fiction. It sounds like you've woken up and you've reached your breaking point. Good for you. You're starting to make plans and bounce ideas off peoples heads. I was at this stage oh, a year ago. Now look at me, 10 acres, a backhoe, working on full size house, im progressing. I still have my feet firmly in the 'system' because I need money to make the transition. I don't know when I'll even be able to break free of the system. It will be tough. I guess my point is, find a happy medium, work towards your goal, start with finding land. The rest will come in time. Keep us updated.

Good luck,
BK

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

Wildbil, if you're crazy, you're in good company, because so are most of the rest of us.     I agree with a lot of what Muldoon said, namely that you get yourself out of debt ASAP.  Also, start raising some of your own food.  Make a game of it to see what percentage of your food bill you can eliminate by growing/providing for  yourself.  Each year, strive to do more.  The first year my husband and I were married, I hand dug a little garden and pretty much eliminated our grocery bill for veggies for the entire summer and into the fall.  By the second year, I canned 100 quarts of tomatoes and a couple of bushels of beets and pickled okra,etc.  By the third year, I did all that plus filled the deep freeze and raised chickens and pretty much eliminated about 80% of our grocery bill.  That was all living in town on a fairly good-sized lot and with a long growing season.  By the fourth year, I learned how to extend my growing season all winter without heated greenhouses and on a very low budget.  <<Then we moved north for three years and screwed everything up and are now in the position of having to start over with practically nothing!>>   

When we first got married, I never imagined that my husband would go along with my scheme to live debt free and so forth.  He even laughed when I made that first garden (that is, until he ate the first salad out of it and then he was hooked.)  He's come so far since then.  Now he's wanting everything from his own milk to his own bacon, LOL.  His folks think I've bewitched him, and especially his mom thinks we're crazy for wanting the 20 acres out in the boonies we've been eyeballing.  Good thing is that now DH doesn't think I'm so crazy anymore.

So hang in there and be patient.  You're not nuts, or at least not any more so than the rest of us!

[NM_Shooter]

doesn't matter if we think you are crazy.  It does matter if your wife thinks you are crazy.  She has to be in with this 100% or things will become disastrous.

I second Harry's opinion of living as though you had made that transition already.  Cut out all unnecessary expenses.... periodicals, cable TV, junk food.  Start to sell off the stuff that you might not "need" but want.  Down size your TV, sell off expensive toys.  Use this to pay off bills. 

Live as tight as you can for 3 to 6 months.... see if that is a way that you want to live.  Just as important, see if that is a way your wife and daughter want to live.  As your daughter gets older, she is going to want privacy.  She is probably also going to want to have a place to have her friends come over (or you may decide that you want her friends over at your house rather than her over at their house).

Use caution when changing lifestyles!  Slow and easy is a good way to make that transition.  Good luck with  it though.  I like to see folks go over the wall and make the escape.  It gives the rest of us inmates hope.

-f-

[Redoverfarm]

Crazy? Maybe not.  But what you are wanting requires a great amount of commitment not only on your part but the others in your life.  Does everyone want to travel down the same road or perfer a paved approach.

[Jens]

Yes...wait, let me read everything else...be right back.

[Jens]

Homegrown, you sound like me and my wife. 

I agree that you shouldn't try to make too drastic a change.  I also think that you shouldn't obsess over it.  But who am I to give advice on this?  I can't stop thinking about a little homestead, with a BIG shop, and it has been ten years now!  Every time we are in a house for about 6 months, the gears in my head start turning about the next house, and, "it will be on 5 + acres" is the focus.  Then I have to reign myself in a bit.  Having never really been in the position of making enough money (all the time) to be comfortable, I can't say I know your situation.  I will agree, that your wife has to be at least a bit excited, or it will be very difficult. 

Can you start building your cabin in the back yard?

Maybe you can build it as an accessory dwelling unit (ADU in codes terms), live in it, and rent out the main house.  That would help you pare down your debt, give you building experience, and small space experience.  If you decide it isn't for you, you can move back into the main house, and rent out the ADU.  You could maybe build the ADU in halves on two trailers, then hire a trucker to take to site, bolt it back together, when you do move to the acreage.  Talk to modular companies.

At the same time, definitely plant a good sized garden, raise some chickens, and/or rabbits.  Get in contact with the local farming community, and try to get fresh eggs, milk, cheese, meat.  Ask them if you can get involved with the production of these products.  The farmers market (if your town has one, if not, start one!) is a very good source for all of this.  For the most part, Ive found that a spouse will eventually get interested in the things you are passionate about, but they have to see that it is not just the Hallmark movie of the week.

Basically what I am saying is this.  Don't wait, get started yesterday, but don't get too impulsive or careless either.  I know that we still haven't gotten our land yet, because we haven't been meant to.  When I look back on the last ten years, and all that we have learned, and still have to learn, I can't believe how many times I was just ready to load up a backpack and squat on Government land (ok, still would be ok with that).  Learn as much as you can, pare down your lifestyle and requirements. 

I don't know what your housing rates are like there, but here, we pay $350 a month mortgage (850 sq ft house), and we have gotten our requirements down to about $1300 a month (for bare minimum, just above drowning).  It isn't easy, but we have gotten fairly comfortable with it.  We have two cars, paid for (from profit selling first house I remodeled), DSL, cell phones, NO CABLE, no home phone, garden not planted yet, but will be this year.  Hopefully we will be able to produce all of our veggies, local farmers are there for what we can't.  There are always fruit trees in neighborhoods that need picking at the end of the season.  We will be getting chickens again (so awesome having fresh eggs everyday), and possibly rabbits and a goat or two.  All of this on two (each small) city lots.  Still want land, but can't get it yet, so we are trying to homestead in the city.  Maybe you can try the same?

Oh yeah, I am 29, wife is 26, we have 4 kids, all home schooled.  If you can get your wife to read this, and she sounds interested, PM if she wants to talk to my wife about how crazy I am.  We live a very crazy, alternative lifestyle, but have found bountiful blessings in it.

[John_C]

 
You're asking this group if you're crazy.
Compared to whom   

[Whitlock]

YES YES YES get away from the darkside.
At the age of 18 I bought 5 acers and built a 12x16 cabin on it. I lived there for 9 years and loved every minute of it.
The only thing was I had no wife only G-friends some loved it some didn't.
You need to work with your wife on this some women have a harder time moving away from what they feel is a secure environment.

I'm sure she trusts you and I think you all ready know it will be a happier healthier environment for your family.

Go for it,W

[John_C]

OK  now I'll be serious, but just for a little while.

It's not crazy, but evaluate carefully each step. 

It's not necessary to be off grid to be independent.  A small, well insulated, well thought out house would use a very small fraction of the power that an average house uses. It could be designed so power outages were only mildly inconvenient, not devastating.

If you end up building close in to town where power is available it may be far more economical to tie into the grid.  But consider what you would do when you are without power for  a few days/weeks.

Consider the size of the house if it's a permanent dwelling.  Certainly smaller is cheaper but at some point not that much cheaper.  Compared to the price of the land, well, septic system etc the "box" isn't that much of the total.  A 20 x 25 house isn't much more than a 16 x 16  house if it has the same bathroom and kitchen amenities, but it has twice the square footage.  Do a spreadsheet on the cost of the entire project and be realistic regarding how much space you really need.

Here on the forum we get very wrapped up in what it costs to rough in the box. Depending on the quality of finish (and how much you choose to do yourself) the dried in house is usually 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of the finished house, including plumbing, electric, cabinetry, wall and floor finish. Kitchens and bathrooms cost way more per square foot than the rest of the house. You may find that a somewhat less austere plan will help get the wife on board ........ always a good thing.

[devildog]

no ,youve woke up, sort of like the matrix.
Quick story: About 6 years ago,our church showed a series of videos on wednesday nights of a man by the name of Dave Ramsey. He used scripture to talk about debt, tithing, aand many other things. It changed  our life! I wasnt wanting to get rich, just wanted to get right, be happy, and please God.  My wife and I went home cut up our credit cards and took afaith step in the right direction. It was sometimes painful and we made alot of bad decisions along the way. But god blessed us.  I have no debt. Its along story to write out all of the blessings, but heres a few: we were living in a mobile home an hour and 15 minutes from my job, and one day the pastor asked us if we would consider  living on the church property as security. rent free, we would have to provide the mobile home.  we said yes Put our place up for sale , and got 127,000 for what we paid 75000 for 3 yrs prior paidcash for small mobil to put at church 10 min. from work. also during those 6 yrs I was givin 3 cars. all at a time when I needed one, and also I never asked for any of them. Im also divorced and have been paying 900.00 amonth in child support since 1999. god turned my relationship with my children around the oldest just turned 18 jioned the marines(oorah!) and the 16 year old has come to live with me. my 13 year old stays with his mother.and we got a lawyer to call it ''EVEN''. so no child support for at least 2 yrs.
 there are many more good things that  happened for my family when we stepped out in faith. we bought our property w/ cash and plan to build a small cabin on it at first as a getaway w/ cash, and hopefully in about 5yrs move in.
I think I got to rambling , it took me almost an hour to type this ,Im terrible. anyway google dave ramsey and see what hes got to say and maybe get the land , build the cabin, reduce your debt and use it as a getaway until your wife/family feelsmore comfortable and maybe during that time some job oppurtunities may show up. I do feel your pain though and hope for a better future for you and your family.God bless
                                                                                                                                                  Darrell

[MountainDon]

wildbil, the thoughts that ran through my head as I read your post have all been iterated by others here. However, I wish to add that one of those thoughts was "why place the reign in our debt. whittle ourselves down to bare possessions in the second place category? That is the place to begin. No matter the size of the present home the lifestyle can be changed to be less wasteful/costly. Simplifying now, will lead to future savings. Getting everyone on the same level before your personal plan is begun is as important as getting a savings plan in place. Maybe more important. If you are going in one direction and the others in the family are ambivalent or worse, going in the other direction, you will not have much success, IMO.

Also regarding your thoughts on the size of building for a family of 3(?), 4 someday(?); give that some more serious thought. I could probably live in a 12 x 18 ft space by myself, but even though I love my wife of many years we would have problems living in that size space together, and/or with a child around. But, that may just be me; we're all different. The suggestion to draw it out on the ground, the driveway, wherever is a sound one. We did that and it helped us immensely in sizing our cabin.

As mentioned being off grid may be an ultimate goal of self sufficiency, but being electrically independent costs a lot more up front in almost all cases. Being grid tied to begin with in a small efficient home, need not run a large monthly bill. Total electrical independence can come later when there is extra cash to spend.

I'd also sit down and make a list off all your family expenditures, and then have a family meeting about what is really needed vs. all those things that different members want. You and your wife have equal votes, but the kids get to go along for the ride you and she decide upon. You and she have to agree on both the goal and the path to follow to achieve it, before setting course. My wife and I did that years decades ago; we both worked and lived on one salary for our first years together, while saving the other wage. Then when our son was born we could carry on, on the one remaining salary, though savings were suspended for a while.



My 2 cents.  Best of everything.

[bayview]

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