Propane

[desdawg]

I am wondering if it wouldn't be prudent to get my propane tank filled now while crude is lower than it has been even though nat gas is up and the winter demand hasn't started. Propane follows crude price and is a byproduct of oil refining and natural gas processing. here is an explanation. http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/brochures/propane/
I guess the thing to do is call around for some prices for local delivery. My old boss usually delivers mine for less than anyone else but I still have to keep him honest. I worked in that industry for 13 years. Most of my appliances are gas even the clothes dryer.

[peternap]

Might not be a bad idea. I hadn't thought of it and I guess I should top off everything while the topping's good.

[Mad Dog]

Most of my appliances are gas even the clothes dryer.

des, I've been contemplating going in that direction myself, when the cabin is built.  What do you like/dislike about the propane applainces?  I'm thinking of going tankless water heater, dryer, range/oven, and fridge/freezer.  I've already got a propane oven and cooking on it is so much better than electric.  Approx. how much propane are you using on a monthly/yearly basis for all those appliances?  Just curious, haven't talked with anyone who has first hand experience with all their appliances propane.

[desdawg]

I would have to dig through some old receipts to see how many gallons I use per year. I am going to guess around 1500 gallons.I live in AZ so I am not heating at Alaska Temperatures. I just spoke to my old boss on the phone and he gets dinged an additional 10 cents a gallon starting in October. He felt like the price would continue to go down for the next two weeks. In calling around I found that some of the major companies are offering a first fill discount of about 70 cents a gallon if you are not already a customer. They are hoping to snag you for the remainder of the year of course but no one mentioned signing a contract. They do want you to open an account. Other than that the price here seems to be running between 3.10-3.30/gallon. With my former employee discount I get it for $2.89.

[Redoverfarm]

Here it is $2.90 now at the Summer Time fill price. That was good until 8/1.  The it goes to the regular which is about $.10 more per gallon.  I ordered mine 7/30 for the house. 

For the cabin it will be almost all propane since there is no power.  Even contiplating a propane generator if I can get someone to give me the honest scoup on whether they would hold up like the gasoline or deisel.  Just didn't want to lug cans there.

[Mad Dog]

That's some great information benevolence, thanks!

You other guys have it good with the price of propane, I had the 100lb tank filled in town for $3.99/gallon this past June.  Not delivery, which would be a little cheaper, but we're getting slammed up here right now.

[MountainDon]

I filled some 20 and 40 pounders at 2.55 a gallon today.   

As for propane fueled generators keep in mind that you have to derate the generator output as the generator manufacturers figures are for gasoline and usually at sea level. (Adjust for altitude as well) Propane has about 25% fewer BTU compared to gasoline. It burns much cleaner so is beneficial in that way. CNG has about half the BTU content of liquid gasoline.

FYI...... (from  http://www.nooutage.com/fuels.htm )

Propane
    1 gallon = 91,500 BTU
    1 cubic foot = 2,500 BTU
    1 pound = 21,500 BTU
    4.24 lbs = 1 gallon
    36.39 cubic feet = 1 gallon

Natural Gas
    1 cubic foot = 1,050 BTU

Gasoline
    1 pound = 19,000 BTU
    1 gallon = 125,000 BTU
    1 gallon = 6.1 lbs

Oils
    1 gallon kerosene = 135,000 BTU
    1 gallon #2 oil = 138,500 BTU
    1 gallon diesel = 139,200 BTU
    1 gallon #6 oil = 153,200 BTU

Other Fuels (dry)
    1 lb hydrogen = 51,892 BTU with steam as product
    1 lb coal (anthracite) = 12,700 BTU
    1 lb coal (subbituminous) = 8,800 BTU
    1 lb coal (bituminous) = 11,500 BTU
    1 lb pine wood bark = 9,200 BTU
    1 lb hardwood bark = 8,400 BTU
    1 lb wood = 7,870 BTU
    1 lb dung = 7,500 BTU
    1 lb waste paper = 6,500 BTU
    1 lb sawdust/shavings = 3,850 BTU

    1 kWH electricity = 3,413 BTU

    1 therm any fuel = 100,000 BTU

[MountainDon]

I was going by gallons as that's the way I buy fuel.

Dunno about the difference when you use weight. But I do know that dual fuel gennys are always rated lower on propane.

[MountainDon]

Propane's odd... you buy a 20# or a 40# tank and then they charge you for gallons. Remember before the OPD valves... you placed the tank on a scale, but they still pumped gallons. 

[rwanders]

I was originally going to use propane for heating my cabin in Alaska but, after talking to a Mechanical/HVAC engineer friend, will now use a fuel oil burning TOYO stove. He pointed to the large differential in BTUs per gallon----a slightly lower price for the propane fell far short of making up for that fact. I will use propane to fire a tankless water heater due to it's more compact size compared to the fuel oil fired variety especially when you add the clearance requirements for them. The cleanliness of propane is very alluring, but the $$$ just don't add up.

[peternap]

Don, I'd rather live in New York City than agree with Benovelance, but your getting taken. I buy propane by the pound too. You might want to shop around.

[desdawg]

a 100# propane cylinder holds 23.6 gallons of propane when filled to 80% of it's liquid capacity or 100#'s therefore 4.24 # per gallon if memory serves me right which happens occassionally. 4.23# per gallon per this chart http://www.flameengineering.com/Propane_Info.html

[MountainDon]

Don, I'd rather live in New York City than agree with Benovelance,

Since the OPD valve came along everywhere I've been around here sells by the gallon. Unless you have a 100# tank. They place them on the scale.

When they deliver by truck and fill your yard tank they have only one choice and that's by the liquid gallon isn't it?

You can watch the meter roll as the pump transfers the Liquid Propane from their big tank to my small one.

[peternap]

I get mine from Southern States Cooperative. Their pump does measure in gallons but the weigh it for the bill.

[desdawg]

I did get my tank filled today at $2.79/gallon today. There will be a 10 cent wholesale hike in this area October 1 I am told for no other reason than the season of the year.

[MountainDon]

$2.40 here on Tuesday

[Redoverfarm]

$2.90 here last week. Filled mine up at 158 gal.  But I guess that is not really than bad for all winter.  Need to put more wood in the stove this year.

[glenn kangiser]

Was 2.89 went to 2.99 here last week.

[Mad Dog]

Guess I better get on this myself in the next week or so.  Like I said, last time I bought some, it was $3.99, can't see it being any cheaper right now.

[desdawg]

Who knows, we may save a couple of bucks by filling now. Then maybe it will drop and I will wish I hadn't. That is usually how it works out for me. Either a day early or a day late.

[MountainDon]

I think with winter coming it's a reasonable expectation to see a rise.

[desdawg]

I agree once the demand begins. But these yahoos are jacking the price because a calendar page flips over. No it won't go down.